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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Stirrick on Monday 04 October 21 16:56 BST (UK)
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I'm trying to get a handle on Merchant Navy Seamen's records for the period 1913 to 1941.
I've seen numerous references to the CR1, CR2 and CR10 cards. But no-one seems to say what they actually were and how they linked together.
Is it true to say that a Seaman would be issued with one CR1 card (when he first went to sea) and one CR2 card (when he left his first ship) ? And that subsequent ships that he joined would be recorded on these cards by their registration number ?
Or would a separate CR1 and CR2 be issued for each ship that he served on ?
I've seen references to the fact that Merchant Navy Seamen's records for the period 1913 to 1921 were destroyed in 1969. So what records are these? CR1's and CR2's ?
Unless, of course, they were CR10's?? So what's a CR10 and why weren't they destroyed along with the CR1's and CR2's ?
And what's the Discharge Number? Was a separate number issued each time a Seaman left a ship? Or would he keep the same Discharge Number throughout his career ?
I must admit that I'm completely baffled by the whole process.
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I'm not an expert. But the National Archives offer a series of research guides - this one is relevant to your question on CR10 and you can browse the guides from here.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/merchant-seamen-serving-since-1918/
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Thanks for replying Graham
I agree that the NA guides are usually very good, but not in this case.
In fact every online site that I've consulted seems to just regurgitate the same phrases without ever explaining the detail.
I'm beginning to wonder if it's a case of 'The Emperor's New Clothes' and that non-one - even those sites dedicated to Merchant Navy records - actually understands what they are talking about with regard to this Registration process.
Very frustrating. ;-)
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Couple of books that might help too
Tracing Your Merchant Navy Ancestors: a Guide for Family Historians - Simon Wills
My Ancestor Was a Merchant Seaman - Christopher Watts
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Thanks again.
I've got the Watts book. It's very good except that he glosses over the Registrations after 1857.
I might have to splash out and buy the other.
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Hi,
There were no registrations between 1857 [Third Register of Seamen] and 1913 [Fourth Register of Seamen] Only effective way of tracing seamen for that time period is by the use of Crew Agreements. The Board of Trade felt that Crew Agreements and Lists provided an adequate means of recording information about the seamen without the need to create a separate register.
Is it true to say that a Seaman would be issued with one CR1 card (when he first went to sea) and one CR2 card (when he left his first ship) ? And that subsequent ships that he joined would be recorded on these cards by their registration number ?
Not really true. CR1,2 & 10 cards were not issued to seamen but were documented ashore by clerks.
CR1 cards were filled in when a seaman was issued a replacement Dis.A book. CR2 cards show foreign voyages only usually named by ship's official number.
I've seen references to the fact that Merchant Navy Seamen's records for the period 1913 to 1921 were destroyed in 1969. So what records are these? CR1's and CR2's ?
The 1969 date refers to Seamen's Pouches in BT 372 but it is true that WW1 records do not survive. The CR10 card was started in 1918 -1921 they mostly show ships from late 1918 onwards.
And what's the Discharge Number? Was a separate number issued each time a Seaman left a ship? Or would he keep the same Discharge Number throughout his career ?
The Dis.A is a seaman's pivotal reference akin to a service number and usually stays with the seaman for his full career although there are times when a seaman could have another number but these are fairly rare.
Regards
Hugh
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Thank you very much for this, Hugh.
The fog begins to lift a little. ;-)
> CR1 cards were filled in when a seaman was issued a replacement Dis.A book.
What's a Dis.A book ?
What was a CR10 ?
If a CR1 was created each time a Seaman was issued a new Dis.A book, would all of his voyages for that period be recorded on the CR1 ?
Would a separate CR2 be issued for each foreign voyage ?
Or would each CR2 cover all voyages in a given ship ?
I've been looking at a couple of Seamen. They each have a CR1 and a CR2. And one also has a CR10. All these cards name a particular ship (or at least its Registration Number), but nothing else.
This is despite these Seamen each being at sea for many years.
Is that usual ?
And in these cases would it be necessary to track their careers through Ship's Crewlists ?
Thank you again for your help.
The Emperor's not wearing any clothes! ;-)
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Sorry, A Dis.A book is the Continuous Certificate of Discharge or more commonly known as his discharge book. The book that records all of a seaman's ships including sign on and sign off as well as the ports of engagement and discharge. The book also records character and ability and the type of voyage i.e. Home Trade [HT] or Foreign Going [FG].
What was a CR10 ?
If a CR1 was created each time a Seaman was issued a new Dis.A book, would all of his voyages for that period be recorded on the CR1 ?
No. Foreign only on CR2 and Home Trade would be recorded with a paper discharge.
A CR10 card was introduced in 1918 and stopped in 1921 was designed to allow the Government to
check that the merchant seaman’s exemption from conscription is not abused by men taking an unduly long period ashore between voyages.
The CR10 cards were introduced in August 1918 together, with a new identity and
service certificate (RS2 book) to be carried by the seaman. By far the best site for explaining your requirements is David Snook's site: http://irishmariners.ie/
Would a separate CR2 be issued for each foreign voyage ?
Or would each CR2 cover all voyages in a given ship ?
CR2 cards were continually updated with the foreign voyages but usually only one card was updated and kept and the rest destroyed. However, not all CR1, 2 and 10 cards now survive so you may have to use Crew Agreements of known ships to do your research in the cases were records no longer survive.
've been looking at a couple of Seamen. They each have a CR1 and a CR2. And one also has a CR10. All these cards name a particular ship (or at least its Registration Number), but nothing else.
This is despite these Seamen each being at sea for many years.
Is that usual ?
And in these cases would it be necessary to track their careers through Ship's Crewlists ?
Crew Agreement will certainly be the way forward if no other records available. If you need help with the seamen and you wish to share the name and date of birth I can check where you should be looking. Feel free to send a private message if you dont want to go public.
Regards
Hugh
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Thank you very much again, Hugh.
I really appreciate the help.
Just one other thing if that's okay.
Was there a special provision for Apprentices ?
One of the guys I am looking at is rated as AB on his CR1.
But a note on the reverse declares that he is not in possession of a Continuous Discharge Book (his Dis.A presumably) because he is an Apprentice.
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Each Crew Agreement has a seperate column dedicated to recording the names of Young Persons under the age of 18 years of age, and account of all Apprentices employed on board during the voyage.
If previously coasting or fishing or apprenticed then they would not be in possession of a Continuous Certificate of Discharge.
Regards
Hugh
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Thank you again, Hugh.
I feel like I almost know what I'm talking about now. ;-)
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Am I correct in thinking that the only way to inspect many/most of the crew agreements is still to visit some archive in Newfoundland?
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No. The collection of Crew Agreements stored in the Maritime History Archive at the Memorial University of Newfoundland amount to approx 70% of Crew Agreements of British and Empire Ships from 1863 until 1976 . Not Indexed 1951 -1976.
Approx 10% are at TNA Kew, including all from 1939 -1950.
Approx 10% are in NMM Greenwich including 1861, 1862 and years ending in five.up to 1995
Most before 1860 are at Kew.
Some are in local record offices.
Most after 1977 except the ones at NMM Greenwich have been destroyed.
Crew Agreements are online for the years 1881 (MHA) and 1915 (NMM)
Can you tell us the name and if possible the official number, together with dates, of the vessels you are concerned with?
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Thanks but I’m not looking for any at the moment. It’s just that people are advising Stirrick to search out crew lists and I remembered that, in the days when I was looking, it seemed quite a task as many of the records I wanted weren’t easily available in the UK.
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Apologies for bumping this thread one year on, but it seems sensible to keep all the queries about merchant seaman records in one place.
My question relates to the accuracy of the personal data recorded on a CR2, specifically the man's date of birth. My understanding is that the CR2 was filled in by an onshore clerk, and he would have copied some of the information from an earlier CR2 if necessary. My query relates to a man named Edgar James Jackson. My starting point was his 1939 register entry which gives his date of birth as 24 Nov 1901 and under occupation it says he was an assistant pantryman on the RMS Carinthia with the date 14 Sep 39 which I take to be the date he signed off the crew. On FindMyPast there are 3 CR2s for an Edgar James Jackson Plate Pantry Steward, but with a slightly different dob, namely 29/11/02. The CR2 dated 1937 records him on the Carinthia, so I think it's too much of a coincidence that there might have been two separate pantry stewards with the same name on the same ship. Clearly I want to follow up on the crew agreements but I would like to be sure that I am not following the wrong trail. Should I just ignore the dodgy date of birth?
Incidentally the enumerator has added what appears to be a ship's registration number on the 1939 register entry after RMS Carinthia of 158637, but this is not the same number as recorded on the CR2 for Carinthia (147318 - which is the correct number according to CLIP).
Thanks in advance for any help.
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Andy,
Firstly, in the Central Index Register (Fourth Register of Seamen) those cards do contain mistakes and omissions, that is a given. Discrepancies over dates of birth are common so don’t be too strict there.
I have looked at the records and this is what I think based on many years looking at them.
On 12.4.1922 he is serving on the Liverpool registered, DAKOTIAN and has a CR1 card [which were filled in on issue of a Discharge Book, continuation or replacement]. It shows his Dis. A number is noted as 1072182. It is also noted that he does not appear to have been issued with his book so he is to be allocated a new Dis. A which is R158639. On issue with the new number his old one should be cancelled.
Unfortunately, for some reason, I cannot see the image of his 1939 Register but that number is clearly incorrect, if it refers to a ship number.
So, in conclusion then, all three cards – well, four actually, if you include the one with the cancelled number - are actually for the same man.
He appears to have served as follows but this list is probably not complete and you would need to look at Crew Agreements to back track his history from 1939. Any questions please feel free.
145923 – SAMARIA – 8.9.1925
133648 – AKAROA – 20.2.1931
145943 – LANCASTRIA – 28.4.1937
145943 – LANCASTRIA – 18.9.1937
147318 – CARINTHIA – 8.5.1937
145934 – ANDANIA – 8.4.1938
145934 – ANDANIA – 24.2.1939
Regards
Hugh
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DoB? That’s exactly the same problem I had. The date on my Grandfather’s CR2 turned out to be exactly a year and a day out.
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Hi Hugh,
Many thanks for your reply. The 1939R entry is shown below. The top of the entry was cut off by the redacted entry on the line above.
There is a hint from FindMyPast that an EJ Jackson died when the SS Tia Juana was torpedoed off the Gulf of Maracaibo in Feb 1942 (second image below).
I'm assuming she was still in civilian ownership at the time so there may be a crew agreement for him. There is also the death of a Gunner EJ Jackson RA in 1942 which if it was him, could mean he was a DEMS gunner. Both lines of inquiry need lots more work. But thanks for the advice not to get too distracted by the inaccurate date of birth.
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Just to add, the number 158637 which I quoted earlier was my interpretation of the 1939R partial entry. However it is now obvious that this was his second Dis A number R158639, not a ship's number.
Andy
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Hi Andy,
Yes, correct, not a ship number but his Dis. A.
We can rule out Edward Jethro Jackson who was the second officer aboard TIA JUANA
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2362181/edward-jethro-jackson/
We can also rule out any DEMS gunners. I have a listing of all MRA gunners who died at sea. He is not among them.
Gnr Edgar Jackson who died in 1942 was was from Sunderland, Durham and was killed in the Western Desert, Egypt in 1942.
Regards
Hugh
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Thanks again, Hugh. Saved me some extra work!
Although a few of the Jackson family went to sea, most of them were marine engineers, so steward is a slightly new line of employment for me, although my (Norwegian) great grandmother was a stewardess with the Allan line (later Canadian Pacific), which is how she met my ggrandfather who was a chief engineer with the same company. I don't suppose many stewards were retained in that role on British ships after the outbreak of hostilities.
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On the contrary Andy, Stewards were always an important part of the crew and were retained during hostilities. Many also undertook MSG [merchant seamen gunners] training to assist DEMS at action stations. Do you know if he served during WW2?
Regards
Hugh
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No, the 1939 register is as far as I have got with him. I will need to check the crew agreements to see if he remained in the merchant marine. Unfortunately he is on the outer arm of the Jacksons I am researching so I don't have any anecdotal evidence about his war or afterwards. He had 2 or possibly three daughters born 1932 - 1940, and so the Jackson name ended with him on that particular branch, as far as I am aware at present.
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He may or may not have continued to serve at sea during the war. To find out if he served during the war you would need to obtain his form CRS 10 which begins Jan,1941. Usually the records in the Fourth Register of Seamen were transferred into the Fifth Series of Seamen 1941-1972 but some cards do remain. If you are able to visit TNA Kew you should check the following file
BT 382/860 - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10989085 it is where his service record will be if it has survived or if he served. It is held in a block of up to 60 other names so best obtained by visit or via a researcher.
It looks like he may have died in Halton, Cheshire in 1980.
First name(s) Edgar James
Last name Jackson
Gender Male
Birth day 29
Birth month 11
Birth year 1901
Age -
Death quarter 4
Death year 1980
District Halton
County Cheshire
Volume 35
Page 0592
Country England
Record set England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Deaths & Burials
Collections from Great Britain, England
Regards
Hugh
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Thanks Hugh. Yes, that's his death in 1980.
I will be visiting Kew in the next couple of weeks so I will check out the reference you gave me. Is there anything I can look up for you while I'm there, by way of thanks for all your help?
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My query relates to a man named Edgar James Jackson. My starting point was his 1939 register entry which gives his date of birth as 24 Nov 1901 and under occupation it says he was an assistant pantryman on the RMS Carinthia with the date 14 Sep 39 which I take to be the date he signed off the crew.
On FindMyPast there are 3 CR2s for an Edgar James Jackson Plate Pantry Steward, but with a slightly different dob, namely 29/11/02.
This is the d.o.b. on the 1939 image, I'd say that it is 29 Nov 1901, same as his CR2s?
EDIT sorry its the same day and month but yes a different year on the CR2. I got hung up on the day discrepancy
Boo
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I also have questions about CR1 and CR2 records and thought I'd post here instead of starting a new thread.
The service record I'm looking at has a CR2 dated 11 March 1924, ship 143058, Port Nicholson.
On the back is a list of ship numbers and one date. Is this likely to be the date of joining the ship or date of discharge? The first ship on the list is also 143058, date 1 Aug 1925.
The CR1 is stamped 8 Sept 1924. Does this mean that he joined the ship in March 1924, left in Sept 1924 and then rejoined 11 months later in Aug 1925? Or did men sign up for a set period, like one year?
From newspaper reports, the Port Nicholson made a trip to Australia between March and Aug 1924 so he would have been back in the UK to be discharged in September. The ship then left for Australia again in October but hit a rock off Gran Canaria and passengers and crew had to be rescued, the cargo (including dynamite) transferred to another ship and the ship repaired. I'm trying to work out whether or not my grandfather was on this second voyage.
Thank you!
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Firstly, you need to be aware that there are mistakes and omissions in those cards so you need to look at them carefully. They are not a complete record of service. CR1 cards were completed in a port MMO at the same time a Dis.A book was issued or an old one checked.
Not all contain the same information as there were changes made to the cards through the years.
CR2 cards show individual seamen's foreign voyage start details. On the back of the CR2 should be a list of his ships usually by official number but sometimes a name with dates of foreign voyage engagements.
To be honest, I would need to see the cards to give you a proper answer to your question though.
If you could give his name and date of birth I can look him up and check for you. Give it in a private message if you don't wish his name to be public.
Of course there is another way to find out when he joined and left the ship in 1924/25 and that is to look at her Crew Agreements. There is one for 1924 but none for 1925. If she was away from the UK in 1925 and did not get back until 1926 then it is likely that the 1925 Crew Agreement is filed along with the 1926 document. This is held at the Maritime History Archive in Canada.
Your other question - seamen signed on for the duration of the voyage whether it was two weeks, two months or much longer. On completion of the voyage they could sign off or sign on again for another voyage assuming the master was happy with their ability and conduct. They could also leave and go sign on another ship. Seamen on some occasions never completed a full voyage. Sometimes they would sign off at another port or actually jump ship.
Hugh
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Thanks Hugh. I've sent you a PM.