RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: Rishile on Thursday 30 September 21 14:10 BST (UK)
-
Can anyone help with this please?
Harriet Pike born 1882 in Gillingham married James Venemore on 23rd September 1906 at Gillingham. I cannot find a birth record in England for James but the marriage record says his father, George was a Baker, as was James.
In 1907 Harriet and James travelled on the Tunisian to Montreal, Canada - their destination is Quebec. There is a note next to their names 'To Be Deported'. What would this mean? Does it mean James was born in Canada or in the UK?
James was born c1880 and, presumably, died between 1909 (they had a son in 1909) and 1911. There is a James Croxford Venemore with father George in Leighton Buzzard that fits with the birth and death dates but this appears to be a red herring. James Croxford Venemore married Minnie Frost in 1902 and it appears that Minnie died in 1904 but Harriet's James is shown as a batchelor on the marriage record in 1906.
Harriet returned to the UK in 1910 with her two children but James was not with them and I have found no other record of him returning. In the 1911 census Harriet is shown as a widow.
If anyone could help with James's birth and/or death records it would help a lot and I would be very grateful.
Rishile
-
There is a Poor Law Union Record dated 1912 showing Harriet, aged 30, widow of James, a baker, along with son Percy, aged 3 in the Medway, Kent records, admitted from Gillingham parish. Record available on Ancestry.
-
There is a Poor Law Union Record dated 1912 showing Harriet, aged 30, widow of James, a baker, along with son Percy, aged 3 in the Medway, Kent records, admitted from Gillingham parish. Record available on Ancestry.
Thank you Eileen - I have that record but I can't find out anything about James. Harriet re-married in 1913.
Rishile
-
Also, there's an online tree that shows another child named George, born in Canada, in 1907. In the 1911 census, he is living with George & Ellen Blackford, and noted as a nephew.
-
Where it says to be deported - maybe a red-herring - is there a date 8 14 42 could be 14/8/1942 or just a reference number ?
Sandra
-
Believe it's just a reference number, although it looks like it might not have happened, as she was likely pregnant at the time, and she doesn't return to England until 1910.
-
Percy David Vaeneimore - Birth Date 20 Jun 1909 Hastings, Ontario, Canada
Father James Vannimore - Mother Harriet Pike
Page Number 357
Sandra
-
Where it says to be deported - maybe a red-herring - is there a date 8 14 42 could be 14/8/1942 or just a reference number ?
Sandra
This appears to be a reference number rather than a date. The date would have been 1907.
Eileen - thank you. I have the information about her children.
Rishile
-
Sandra is one step ahead of me. Percy was born in Belleville, Ontario (in Hastings County). James is noted as a labourer and he and Harriet were married in England in 1906.
-
I find no record for James' death in Hastings County in the registrations nor is there a reference in the Belleville Library's obituary index for the time period.
-
I find no record for James' death in Hastings County in the registrations nor is there a reference in the Belleville Library's obituary index for the time period.
Thank you for looking Eileen
Rishile
-
Just reading through this thread and I think Rishile is wanting to know;
1. Is the James Venemore, a batchelor in 1906 when he married Harriet Pike -- the same person as James C. Venimore b in 1880, who married Minnie Frost in 1902. Then died as James C. Venemore in 1910. (He doesn't use the 'C' on his marriage to Harriet, nor on his emigration).
2. Can anyone find James Venemore returning to England? Harriet indicates she is a housewife on HER return journey in 1910 with her 2 sons. (I notice she returned in March 1910 and James C. Venemore died in Q/E March 1910.)
Why was the note 'to be deported' on their entry record in Canada?
Can anyone with Canadian expertise advise if deportation records are available anywhere? Having said that, they didn't immediately come back did they? I cannot find James coming back at all.
-
Just reading through this thread and I think Rishile is wanting to know;
1. Is the James Venemore, a batchelor in 1906 when he married Harriet Pike -- the same person as James C. Venimore b in 1880, who married Minnie Frost in 1902. Then died as James C. Venemore in 1910. (He doesn't use the 'C' on his marriage to Harriet, nor on his emigration).
2. Can anyone find James Venemore returning to England? Harriet indicates she is a housewife on HER return journey in 1910 with her 2 sons. (I notice she returned in March 1910 and James C. Venemore died in Q/E March 1910.)
Why was the note 'to be deported' on their entry record in Canada?
Can anyone with Canadian expertise advise if deportation records are available anywhere? Having said that, they didn't immediately come back did they? I cannot find James coming back at all.
Sorry no expertise at all but always willing to have a go :)
1 - Perhaps the death certificate for James C Venemore in 1910 would answer your question.
2 - Unless there is another mis-spelling of the surname, ancestry had no return passenger list showing James Venemore that I have come across. Like Eileen, I could find no information on a death for James in Belleville Ontario or in Quebec Montreal.
3 - Very few files have survived relating to individual deportees. The Canadian Passenger Lists at that time held minimum information so unfortunately they don't give details of nearest relatives or next of kin left in the UK or show detailed information of where the couple were going - apart from Quebec. Going thru the remainder of the passenger list - forward and backwards I did not see an explanation given for the deportation note. I have seen these before at the end of as passenger list.
https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/immigration/immigration-records/Pages/introduction.aspx#b
Sandra
-
Yes - I agree the death cert may provide info.
I am making things up now -- but I wonder if James was taken ill on board ship and was in the 'sick bay' when the ship docked - and inadvertantly missed being recorded on arrival.
I can't find a list of passengers leaving Canada - only the arrival in England. Can any Hawk Eye find passenger lists leaving Canada please?
-
Going thru all the pages of the passenger list, I did not see any sick bay references for passengers.
There are UK return passenger lists on ancestry, not sure what find my past have ?
Library and Archives Canada
The Government of Canada did not keep records of people leaving the country; there are no passenger lists for departures from Canadian ports.
https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/immigration/immigration-records/Pages/introduction.aspx
Sandra
-
Sandra you are a mine of information.
I have been reading the list of deportees, for which you provided a link - it's awful of me, but I found it quite funny. Reading the list, you get the impression that a whole lot of insane people must have infiltrated Canada at various times!
I have checked both Find My Past and Ancestry - but cannot find James returning.
A mystery. With Harriet describing herself as a Housewife on her return journey - it tends to imply she is still married at that point.
-
Did you notice that on some passenger lists and border entry lists, there is a file number written beside a person’s name. Those individual files were destroyed, and only a small sample of files was retained. The files relating to individual deportees only started in 1908.
Sandra
-
Thank you for clarifying the questions Pennines. You are a godsend.
Rishile
-
Well done Pennines.
-
Well done you, Sandra, for the link to the immigration site. Every day is a school day!
How strange there are no lists for people leaving Canada though.
Basically we are stuck then, on this James. I can't see another James Venemore born around the same time as James C. Venemore. Just strange that on the marriage to Harriet amongst Kent parish registers - he says he's a bachelor and doesn't use the middle initial.
The possible first marriage and the death record do.
Rishile -- I think you can be assured you haven't missed anything - either that, or we have all missed it! As Sandra said, maybe the death cert of James C. will help. Occupation of the deceased - the cause of death - and actual date. It was Q/E Mar 1910 - but was it AFTER the date of Harriet's return in March that year?
-
A thought .... perhaps James came home before the wife and kids to find a place to live, find work, etc.... which is why he is not listed on the passenger record, so perhaps he did pass in England prior to their arrival.
-
Thank you Eileen, Sandra and Pennines for all your help with this.
I won't be getting the death cert for James C Venemore because a) James is the husband of Harriet who is not actually in my direct line and b) I think James C is a red herring although a big coincidence.
I appreciate everyone's help with this
Rishile
-
The sister of James Venemore - Annie Venemore aged 22 years when she married William Langley - Woolwich London 16 September 1893 - father was George Venemore - Baker.
1881 Birds Hill Heath and Reach Bedfordshire.
George Venemon 27 Hay & Straw Maker.
Sarah Venemon 28
Annie E. Venemon 5
James P. Venemon 8 months
Sandra
-
Sandra - I have just found the census you mean -- on that George's occupation seems to be Hay and Straw Dealer. (wouldn't fancy eating his bread!)
If he's a Baker at Annie's marriage, maybe he changed jobs - Sarah's a widow by 1891.
Anyway -- it's been a good hunt and I guess we'll never know whether there are 2 James's - or when Harriet's husband returned.
-
Yes, I had "baker" on the brain. :-\
Sandra
-
Just throwing my two cents out here:
I don't think James C. is a red herring at all. From reading the old British newspapers on this family, the Venemore's of Leighton Lizard and Heath & Meath were all corn dealers, corn dealers AND bakers, or just bakers. It is not at all uncommon to have that combination. Corn dealers didn't just deal in corn; they dealt in all seeds, for human and animal consumption, and farmers for the next years crop. The bakers probably had the best wheat milled for themselves!
The dates of everything fit too well, right down to James' birth announcement. George's father, Joseph, was constantly in the papers. Josephs other son, also a James, a corn dealer and baker pops up in articles.
As for the "bachelor", it is really not that rare to have that been recorded wrong; whether intentionally or just clerical error/assumption. Maybe Harriett was giving the information, and had no idea he had been married before.
The death of James C in 1910 is first quarter 1910. That is when Harriet is returning to Canada. Perhaps she was bringing his body back, and the death was registered in England. It is unfortunate that this didn't occur until after the Canada 1911 census so we could see where they were to check newspapers. :-\
Anyways, that's my take on it! Take another look, and make your own decision, but I only post because I would hate to see someone hit a brick wall over one word (bachelor) on a document.
-
That's the way my grey cells were working yesterday. It seems to coincidental for the death not to be him.
Sandra
-
Thank you bbart. Strangely, I was thinking about this as I was about to come on-line and wondering if she brought the body back to the UK.
Thank you for your input and a different slant on the story.
Rishile
-
I don't think a UK death certificate wouldn't have been issued if James died in Canada.
Sandra
-
In addition Harriet had indicated herself as 'Housewife' on arrival back in Britain. If James had already died - would she have done that? Or am I picking on a word again as I seemingly did with 'bachelor' maybe? bbart - I agree with you about the James Venemore's birth being at the same time as James C. Venemore. Also - his father is named George - as is James C. Venemore's father.
I certainly was NOT suggesting that because his marriage cert to Harriet states Bachelor - it meant that he wasn't the same person. The fact that he drops the 'C' on his second marriage and his emigration is a nuisance also. My apologies bbart if I have come across as suggesting that they are definitely 2 different people. That was not my intention.
I did look if I could find 'Deaths at Sea' actually -- I am sure I have found such a dataset before - but I couldn't this time - I think I am missing it, unless it's just in the Military set. Possibly I am just brain dead again.
-
If you go thru the other pages on the passenger list March 1910, no deaths were recorded. Page 7.
Sandra
-
Oh thank you Sandra -- I never knew that information was recorded for voyage details. How very useful.
-
Pennines, no apology! In Rishile's opening post, it seemed the word "bachelor" was eliminating a possible candidate. I wasn't meaning at all to reference anything you said!
And Sandra, it does seems odd to not have a death reg in Canada; I am wondering if that "to be deported" had anything to do with Harriett registering him or not.
I understand Rishile not wanting to get the death reg for the 1910 Bedford fellow as he is not in her direct line, but my curiosity has gotten the better of me, so I have ordered a pdf copy. (Yes, yes, curiosity killed the cat, but whatever!) It's more for myself to prove or disprove the trail I was following.
I think it said four days to arrive, so stay tuned!
-
Oh bbart -- I am so glad you have ordered it, I was tempted to do that myself, as I was so very curious about this case - with it's bits of anonomolies and Harriet coming back with the boys. No James. Then a death of James C. registered in his home Reg. Dist. the same quarter she returns.
It was quite fascinating.
You are a star!!
-
I was just thinking the same thing ... we genealogists can't stand an unsolved mystery!
-
Thank you for ordering the certificate bbart. This line of my family is so large - Harriet was one of 16 children. As Harriet is not my direct line, I have to stop somewhere when it comes to certificates.
Thank you again
Rishile
-
As Harriet is not my direct line, I have to stop somewhere when it comes to certificates.
I absolutely understand!
I believe this 1910 death of James Croxmore Venemore to be Harriett's husband.
I thought the GRO would send a link I could pass on, but it doesn't work that way! I have downloaded it, so if any of you is interested in seeing the original, pm me your email.
District of Leighton Buzzard Sub District: Leighton Buzzard
When and Where Died
19 Jan 1910 at Thomas Street, Heath and Reach, RD Beds
Name and Surname (as they wrote it, with a space, as if it were a dual surname)
James
Croxford
Venemore
Male
29 years
Baker, journeyman
Cause of death
tubercular phthisis haemorrage certified by (Reg S ?) Pearson
Signature, Description, and Residence of Informant
S. Kempster, mother, present at the death
Thomas Street, Heath and Reach
Registered 20 Jan 1910
James' father, George, died age 36 Q4 1890 Leighton Buzzard (b. 1853)
James' mother, Sarah, remarried to George Kempster, a widowed boot/shoe maker in 1894. He lived on Thomas St. well before he married Sarah, and you can see them both there in the 1901.
George Kempster died in 1907,
I believe James returned to England before the birth of Percy. If you look at Percy's birth reg, an occupation of housewife was entered for Harriet. This line was only to be filled out if the mother was single/ widowed, or in Harriet's case, with no support. I looked well back and forward in the birth regs. to see if it could have been a slip, and I don't believe it was.
I read the entire 1906 new Immigration Laws looking for anything to help. The 1906 laws came in because at least 10 large charities in England were sending tens of thousands of people to Canada, most of which were not employable, and at that time there was an economic depression in Canada, and massive unemployment. Canada could not stop them from sending these people, so in the new laws, Canada could deport them for up to 2 years after arrival, and it was the shipping company that brought them over that would have to take them back to the port they left from.
If James had arrived sick, he would be DETAINED in the ship logs, not TO BE DEPORTED. So his "fyle" number, as it was called, could have been written on his passenger list anywhere up to 2 years after arrival. However, unlike a the zillion other passengers that were to be deported that I tried to trace, they all had dates on them. There was no date on James'.
Looking again at Harriett's return, she was on a mail/cargo ship, that could handle a small number of passengers. 3 of those other passengers listed were being deported. Harriet and children were not listed as such.
This leads to me to ponder if James fell into the small group of immigrants that ASKED to be deported. There was a small number of, in normal times, highly employable men that immigrated, could not find work, ran out of money while they looked for jobs, and by asking to be sent back, they could get passage home on the promise of repaying the government at a later date. The idea was, they would return to England, make some money, and either send for their family, or return and try again. It is the only thing that makes sense when the whole family was not sent back.
We will never know for sure, unless we can find his return passenger list with something helpful, but he may have gone back on some mail steamer that lost its passenger list, or is not transcribed. Or his name is just so badly spelled it is beyond the search engine's ability to find him.
Somehow, Harriet got word of James' death, and somehow she was able to get tickets home.
Sarah Kempster died later in the year of 1910, which is why I suppose Harriet had to resort to the Workhouse for a while.
Harriett certainly had a hard time right from the get-go. Very sad story.
I am sure I had some other minor tidbits that tied all this together, but this is enough for now!
-
Oh Wow bbart - that is amazing. The level of research you have done has blown me away. Thank you so, so much. I just wish James was in my direct line.
There are some very interesting stories in this family - mostly unearthed by Pennines - hence how she is so well-informed. I know she will appreciate your input.
Thank you again
Rishile
-
Oh bbart -- what fantastic information you have uncovered with this case. So much research you have done also.
Poor Harriet. What a nightmare she went through.
Thank you so much for your very informative post. I know it's not my 'case' - but I was fascinated by the mystery.
It does make you wonder how she managed in Canada with 2 babies and no husband present to support her.
bbart you are an absolute star for doing this and kindly sharing the information you have found.
-
No thanks needed; my curiosity about James led to a need to know more about what Harriet was going through. And as always, this was a group effort!
I'm going from memory here, but those Goodwin children that Harriet was with in the 1911 census appear to be the children of Captain William Goodwin (mariner; captain of a barque) and Ann Wildish. From memory, Ann died 1907ish, so it could be that Harriet was hired to take on the household/child care as he would have been at sea. What a handful for her.... I can't even imagine. Perhaps it was just too much for her, as again from memory, I think it was 1912 for the workhouse records.
-
Hi bbart -- I know how you feel about being curious regarding a case.
As Rishile mentioned, I had been looking at her enormous Pike family with her, off this site. I had wondered who the Goodwin children were in 1911.
Harriet did go on to remarry and have children with her second husband. Her second husband Frederick C Clark became a Railway Crossing Keeper and in 1939 - Harriet, now a widow for the second time -- clearly took over from him and is shown as a Railway Crossing Keeper living at Gatehouse Cottage, Bridge Blean, near Canterbury. Her married daughter and family are living with her.
It really is a fascinating story and it's great that you have discovered all those additional pieces of information.
This amused me -- it was the first time I had seen a Female Railway Crossing Keeper on records.
-
Just popped in for a few minutes. Well done bbart that was very generous of you and great research
Regards
Sandra :)
-
Just popped in for a few minutes. Well done bbart that was very generous of you and great research
Regards
Sandra :)
Sandra - I SO agree with you. Amazing generosity and research from bbart.