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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Ruth1973 on Tuesday 28 September 21 22:27 BST (UK)
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Hi, can anyone search criminal or prison records for Mary Ann Smith or Cain (she married John Smith).
I believe she was living at 4 Duke St, Greengate area, Salford in 1891
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Hi, can anyone search criminal or prison records for Mary Ann Smith or Cain (she married John Smith).
Criminal registers are only available to 1892 so what period are we talking about?
When did she marry John Smith? Nothing on freebmd
When & where was she born?
I believe she was living at 4 Duke St, Greengate area, Salford in 1891
8 entries for Mary Smith married to John & living in Salford - which is yours - full details please
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Hi, I don't have a lot on her apart from an address from a baptism record and her two children that are taken from her before 1891, when her two daughters were adopted / moved in with John's brother William.
Her husband John Smith was born approx 1860 in Newcastle. I can see a few hints on ancestry but can't view them to compare against details I have.
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Connected thread here - reply 8
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853514.
John Smith was born Manchester though.
I see a newspaper snippet dated 5th November 1892, Manchester Evening News re a manslaughter charge ‘causing the death of her husband’ . It looks as though he could be John, perhaps?
The age does not match though. That Mary Ann is 23 yrs.
Do you have reason to believe that she was a criminal?
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The 1891 entry you refer to show both were born in Manchester.
Who were the children born before 1891?
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There is another reference to a Mary Ann Smith, ‘known to Salford Police’ in September 1899 - stealing from a shop.
It is not an uncommon name though as Carole pointed out.
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Where and when was the marriage between John Smith & Mary Ann Cain?
What were the names & birthyears of the 2 children you say were taken from her pre 1891?
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yes we were told through the family that the real mother had to give the children up, there are rumours of prison but no proof.
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I cannot find the marriage but the baptism record shows and matches the birth of one of the daughtes Rose, and the address on the baptism of the other daughter Florence has an address mentioned in the family bible!
Her daughters are Florence (often called Florrie) born 25th AUG 1887 and Rose Ann was born 6 APRIL 1891, both in Salford.
I know where the two girls are from 1901.
Its the mother I have little info on,
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That is interesting re the bible. You never mentioned that in your other thread.
Have you found John Smith anywhere else?
Do you have any birth certificates?
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yes the bible is mostly from Florence and Joseph (her husbands side) but it has Rose in it as well as addresses they lived in.
It is a stunning enourmous bible and my mum has kindly trusted me with it.
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There is another newspaper report mentioning a Mary Ann Smith, but no idea if it relates to your lady. You'd have to read the full report to confirm (I don't have a newspaper sub).
Saturday 20 September 1890
Manchester Evening News
"A woman named Mary Ann Smith. was brought up this morning at the Salford Police Court, before Mr. J. Makinson, stipendiary magistrate, on charge of ..."
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Ive now been able to order both birth certificates for the two girls and am very confident Ive now got the correct ones!
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Could this be her?
Thursday 31 March 1892
Manchester Evening News
"SINGULAR BIGAMY CASE SALFORD. A respectably-dressed young woman named Mary Ann Cain was brought up this morning the Salford Police Court, before Air. J. stipendiary, on charge bigamy. Mr. appeared for the prisoner, who had been out bail. Evidence was ..."
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A good find :)
In 1891 John Smith is 28 yrs born 1863, Manchester.
You wrote earlier,
“ Her husband John Smith was born approx 1860 in Newcastle”.
Where do you have him in censuses?
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A good find :)
In 1891 John Smith is 28 yrs born 1863, Manchester.
You wrote earlier,
“ Her husband John Smith was born approx 1860 in Newcastle”.
Where do you have him in censuses?
Its only an approx from an 1871 cencus with his brother William which I know that one is more accurate.
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There was also a child born earlier in 1882:
Baptism: 5 Feb 1882 St Peter, Greengate, Lancashire, England
Susan Smith - filia Joannis Smith & Mariae Annae (formerly Cain)
Born: 30 Jan 1882
Abode: 4 Duke St.
Godparents: Joannes Cailey; Susan ?
Baptised by: Eduardo O'Connell
Register: Baptisms 1877 - 1886, Page 199, Entry 1094
Baptism: 10 May 1891 Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist, Salford, Lancashire, England
Rosa Anna Smith - filia Joannis Smith & Mariae Annae (formerly Cain)
Born: 4 Apr 1891
Abode: 4 Duke St., Greengate
Godparents: Laurentius Kelly; Elizabetha Joanna Logan
Baptised by: Carolo Rothwell
Register: Baptisms 1886 - 1894, Page 420
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See also this record on FindMyPast - which could be Mary Ann:
England & Wales, Crime, Prisons & Punishment, 1770-1935
Year: 1883
Cain Or Smith, Mary Ann
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thats the one I can see on ancestry, I guess Im going to have to renew my membership soon :-D
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Any thoughts to the older child Susan Smith born in 1882?
The criminal record I mentioned before is on FindMyPast. This looks like the related record on Ancestry.
If you PM me with your details, I'll send you the Ancestry record. It's terrific!
UK, Licences of Parole for Female Convicts, 1853-1871, 1883-1887
Name: Mary Ann Cain [Mary Ann Smith]
Age: 43 (she was actually 24, according to the images)
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842 (probably is abt 1859)
Date Convicted: 13 Jun 1883
Court Convicted: City of Manchester Sessions, Lancashire
Convicted Of: Larceny from the person: stealing money and a purse
Sentence: 5 years penal servitude, and 3 years police supervision
Licence Number: 7375
Date of Licence: 31 Dec 1885
Residence of Next of Kin: Manchester, Lancashire
UK, Calendar of Prisoners, 1868-1929
Name: Mary Ann Cain
Trial Age: 24
Birth Date: abt 1859
Trial Date: 14 Jun 1883
Trial Place: Manchester
Occupation: Factory
Charge: Stealing; Felony
Sentence: 5 years; 3 years
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Further to the Ancestry criminal record above, it's definitely your Mary Ann Smith (see below)!
There are quite a few pages, including prisoner photo, full Medical History Sheet, and a record of her letters sent and received, etc.
It appears Mary Ann also had 22 summary convictions for drunkeness, etc. At the time of her 1883 conviction, she was pregnant.
Here are some additional details:
Medical History Sheet (dated 1883) indicates she was born in Manchester, and was 24 years old.
Married with 2 children. [That must be Susan and a son named "James" who died in 1885, according to one of the letters she received in prison].
She'd been in Millbank via Strangeways circa 1883.
Later she was confined in Fulham Convict Prison. Then she was to "repair forthwith to the East End Refuge, Finchley".
"Removed to East End House, Finchley, on conditional license 12 Jan 1886, for friend Mrs Elizabeth Jones, 4 Duke Street, Salford". NOTE: Elizabeth Jones (age 40) is living at this address in 1881. She's from Birmingham.
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Possible earlier conviction for Mary Ann Cain?
UK, Calendar of Prisoners, 1868-1929
Name: Mary Ann Cain
Trial Age: 39
Birth Date: abt 1843
Trial Date: 24 Oct 1882
Trial Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Occupation: Tailoress
Charge: Stealing
Sentence: 6 calendar months; 3 years
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Hillhurst, that is such a good find: a photograph too!
Elizabeth Jones is living at the same address in 1891 and 1901 too.
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Oh my gosh, that’s amazing!
I found the newspaper articles mentioned above and am going to get a copy.
Thankyou!
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I didn’t know about Susan. Interestingly Rose’s son named his daughter Susan. And I’ve just discovered Florence named her daughter Kathleen after her aunt, John’s sister.
I think I need to go through the family bible again and start listing all names and addresses in it!
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Super news isn’t it.
Have you definitely found John and William together?
I have seen a tree which puts William b Newcastle living in Manchester as a young person. Is that him? If so, where is John?
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It might be my tree you found on ancestry. Under ruthrichards1973?
I had one record I found with those names on but nothing else due to a very common surname. To be honest I was searching more on Rose Lynch the wife of William. There are some hints in the tree but I was waiting for some time to research that side more as it’s a bigger family with a common name so I know it’s a tricky one.
I found one that had his name and John and sister Kathleen, which gave a parents name possibly of Bridget but that part I haven’t really researched yet as it’s another stem further up.
There is a distant relative of mine that was also researching this part of the family so has a tree in ancestry too, but some records didn’t match dates I had from my side and as I couldn’t prove it I decided not to use it as confirmed.
I will be ordering Williams birth certificate too at some point to check Bridget is definitely their mother on that stem.
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Who is William’s father and what was his occupation?
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In my tree, Willian Henry Smith father is called James Smith and Bridget, but I’ve only found this as a potential from using census records.
I have an ancestry result for a marriage between William and Rose from BMD in Dec 1984 but I’ve not found the details on the Lancashire site.
That’s a cert I need to order at some point to confirm both of their parents for definite. But I do know William had a sister called Kathleen.
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The address mentioned in the 1871 census 45 Angel Street, Manchester is a known address in the family bible linked to William.
This is where he was living at the age of 8 in 1871.
Father name James
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Haven't found a baptism for son "James" yet. Not sure if he's older than Susan (bap 1882), or if he was the child Mary Ann was pregnant with whilst incarcerated. He died in 1885, according to the letter received from Elizabeth Jones. Interesting that EJ is the only person who exchanges letters with Mary Ann.