RootsChat.Com

Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Berwickshire => Topic started by: Julz83 on Monday 27 September 21 18:15 BST (UK)

Title: Help to be able to continue tracing grandparents
Post by: Julz83 on Monday 27 September 21 18:15 BST (UK)
Evening everyone,

I’d appreciate any help as I’m really stuck and my mind has gone blank.
I’ve signed back up to pick up where I left off on my family tree.

Richard Pringle, b. 1777 Coldstream
d. 1864, is my 3 x Great Grandfather.
(He married Isabella Hay in 1822 in Ayton).

His parents are a James Pringle, (I don’t have a birth or death date or any locations for him), and Agnes Elmer/Elmour, b. 1744 Duns, Berwickshire.
On their marriage certificate in Coldingham in 1773 people are translating Agnes’ surname as Aleman but I believe it’s Elmer as I found a Richard Elmer and Agnes Dickson in Duns who had a daughter Agnes in 1744.

On Ancestry everyone is believing what other trees say and have a James born in 1756 in Earlston as Richards father, but I don’t think it’s that James as the parents married in 1764 and the mother listed was apparently born in 1741 😐

Any help or guidance would be appreciated as I am really stuck and I’d like to be able to trace my grandparent line.

Thank you in advance.

Julie.
 
Title: Re: Help to be able to continue tracing grandparents
Post by: DonM on Tuesday 28 September 21 00:23 BST (UK)
Well it could be Elemor
Title: Re: Help to be able to continue tracing grandparents
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 28 September 21 00:31 BST (UK)
I think so to. The first letter is not the same as the A in Agnes, so Elemor is most likely.
Title: Re: Help to be able to continue tracing grandparents
Post by: Julz83 on Tuesday 28 September 21 08:34 BST (UK)
I did think of other variations but then this document made me think it is Elmer.
Each variant I’ve thought of I’ve searched it and only had Elmer come back.
I’ve tried Elmor, Elmore, Elemor, Elemour......Even Alemor, Aleman, Alemer. I can’t think of anymore  :D

It’s James Pringle that I can’t seem to find out about to continue that line. So far just a document to say the marriage was in the parish of Dunse, Coldingham.
I’d really like to find him.
Title: Re: Help to be able to continue tracing grandparents
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 28 September 21 09:16 BST (UK)
Do you have the names of the children of James and Agnes in birth order?
Title: Re: Help to be able to continue tracing grandparents
Post by: Julz83 on Tuesday 28 September 21 09:33 BST (UK)
Do you have the names of the children of James and Agnes in birth order?

I only know of Richard, born 1777.
I’m assuming there will be more but I can’t seem to find any records so far, especially with no info for James, ie- DOB etc. 
Title: Re: Help to be able to continue tracing grandparents
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 28 September 21 10:29 BST (UK)
Their children will most likely be after their marriage in 1773, so for this there is no need to know when James was born.  I asked because many families used a particular pattern for naming their children:

Quote
Scots often named children by following a simple set of rules:

    1st son named after father's father
    2nd son named after mother's father
    3rd son named after father
    1st daughter named after mother's mother
    2nd daughter named after father's mother
    3rd daughter named after mother

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/guides/forenames#Forenames%20and%20naming%20patterns 

and scroll down to Traditional Naming Patterns.

If you can find the baptisms and names, then you might be able to get an idea of the parents; names.


Gadget


Title: Re: Help to be able to continue tracing grandparents
Post by: Julz83 on Tuesday 28 September 21 10:41 BST (UK)
Their children will most likely be after their marriage in 1773, so for this there is no need to know when James was born.  I asked because many families used a particular pattern for naming their children:

Quote
Scots often named children by following a simple set of rules:

    1st son named after father's father
    2nd son named after mother's father
    3rd son named after father
    1st daughter named after mother's mother
    2nd daughter named after father's mother
    3rd daughter named after mother

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/guides/forenames#Forenames%20and%20naming%20patterns 

and scroll down to Traditional Naming Patterns.

If you can find the baptisms and names, then you might be able to get an idea of the parents; names.


Gadget

I have seen the patterns before and on the Pringle side even up until present day we have a lot of James’, Richards, George, Mary, Agnes, Isabella.
I’m assuming Richard and Agnes Elmer are twins as they are both down as born 01/01/1744 Duns to Richard Elmer and Agnes Dickson.
 
So if these are the correct people they were named after their parents, and possibly grandparents.

For James Pringle and Agnes Elmer I’m unsure how to even think of names and dates and in which order too. 
If they were married in 1773 then there could be a child, or children, before Richard b.1777.
I presume the names used would have been an Agnes and a James though  ???
Title: Re: Help to be able to continue tracing grandparents
Post by: DonM on Tuesday 28 September 21 10:47 BST (UK)
I only see one Richard in the OPR's

PRINGLE RICHARDSON baptized 21/05/1777

But his parents were JOHN PRINGLE/EPHEN RICHARDSON

So where did you get yours from?

Don
Title: Re: Help to be able to continue tracing grandparents
Post by: GR2 on Tuesday 28 September 21 10:54 BST (UK)
In the first clip, Agnes's surname definitely begins with an A, just more squashed that the one at the start of "Agnes" (perhaps because the clerk was coming to the end of the line). The index to Scotlandspeople gives it as "Aleman", but it looks more like Alemar. Certainly the last letter does not look like the other examples of final n. Could well be an r with a flourish.

I have looked in the minutes of Coldingham kirk session, but no mention there. There are no minutes for Duns kirk session on Scotlandspeople for that period. Nor are there minutes available there for Duns in 1744 to see what was said about the birth of the twins.

Spellings were very variable and I would not be surprised to find versions of Agnes's surname starting with an A or an E, in the same way that the surname "Alexander" can appear on the same page as "Elshenor".

Title: Re: Help to be able to continue tracing grandparents
Post by: Julz83 on Tuesday 28 September 21 10:58 BST (UK)
I only see one Richard in the OPR's

PRINGLE RICHARDSON baptized 21/05/1777

But his parents were JOHN PRINGLE/EPHEN RICHARDSON

So where did you get yours from?

Don

Richard Pringle’s death certificate lists father as James Pringle and Agnes Elmer.......if that is the correct translation.