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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Talacharn on Tuesday 21 September 21 21:51 BST (UK)
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I am interested in the Williams family of travellers that settled in and worked around Wales. Originally, they were Scamps, mainly from Devon. There is an oral tree on Romany Genes, but based upon an archive held by Liverpool University. http://www.romanygenes.com/scamp-family/4528685510 (http://www.romanygenes.com/scamp-family/4528685510)
It is clear from that list, both Nelson and Samson Williams and Samson’s children were Scamps, that changed their name in moving to Wales. On census records, Samson claims to have been born in Cwmaman 1846-9. I cannot find a baptism or registration for him and have looked for Scamp and Williams. There seems to be at least 2 or 3 Scamp families moving into Wales in the 1830-40s. Other Scamps families were in the Kent area, with Romany Genes giving no further information as to when or where they were born, who they married (formally, or informally) and the family structures. Most of their census records are from Kent. Traveller families tended to be large, while I can only find Nelson and a few who died young. Does anyone have information about the Scamps, especially if they moved to Wales?
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Wrong part of the country but Roger Baker's Family Tree of Samson and Celia SCAMP has Martha d/o John SCAMP (bp Woodnesborough 1825 s/o John SCAMP and Grace LEE) and Susannah MCCARTHY marrying Alexander WILLIAMS and lists ten children for Martha and Alexander from c1888 to the early years of the C20th in the Canterbury area.
Might be worth looking at these Williams to see if they give any useful clues.
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Is this Nelson?
Bapt
25 Dec 1829, St Mary, Portskewett, Monmouthshire
HORATIO NELSON Scamp
Parents THOMAS WILLIAMS and CLEVANEY Scamp
(FreeREG)
1812 Bapt on there also Ilfracombe, Devon, for a Thomas Williams Scamp, Parents John Williams Scamp and Mary
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the parish register for the 1829 baptism, mother's name looks more like Clevancy. The abode is noted as Feltham, Middlesex and occupation of Thomas as tinker.
Then there's a burial in Defynnog, Breconshire 4 Nov 1845 for Clivancy Scamp 52 of Hertfordshire.
Possible baptism in Essendon, Hertfordshire 22 July 1792 Robert & Clavancy, twins of Samuel & Hannah Lee, Gipsies.
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The Welsh newspapers online show a William Scamp in Newport 1838, later Samuel and Nelson Williams. There are more entries – search for each name enclosed by inverted commas.
Monmouthshire Merlin 17 Nov 1838 page 3, column 5
William Scamp Newport Police added: sent down for 2 months
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3392810/3392813/31/
The Welshman 2 July 1875 page 6, column 4
Under the heading Llandilo, Petty Sessions, half way down column
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4355458/4355464/29/
South Wales Daily News 2 May 1878 page 3 column5 - Pretending to be a Government Inspector (Nelson and Samuel) https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3506426/3506429/39/
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report of Nelson's funeral in 1906
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3348269/3348274/105/
The burial register gives his age as 60 so not an octogenarian!
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there's a later baptism in Ilfracombe to John Williams Scamp & Mary, a daughter Harriet baptised 25 July 1820, John noted as a mariner.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N54M-YQN
Thomas Williams Scamp married Harriet Geen, widow 3 Sep 1836 in Ilfracombe.
1851 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGJD-VV7
Early mention of Scamp name
Burial Llantilio Pertholey, Mon, 12 Nov 1755 Delana Scamp, a strouler(?)
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Thanks All,
Darnity, I will look at the Williams marriages and also came across another Scamp/Williams marriage in Devon that I need to investigate.
trish1120 and Osprey, I am aware of Nelson’s baptism and Thomas Williams Scamp as that is the family I want to know more about. The mother is Clevancy Lee, who died at Defynnog near Brecon. The marriage is listed in Eric Trudgill’s book. Did he continue fathering children with another wife?
I am aware of the funeral, but travellers did not tell the truth, certainly not about their age. There is some confusion, as being an octogenarian fits with the 1829 baptism, but on the oral list, there are 2 called Nelson, possibly father and son. His wife died a few years earlier, which may offer an age. I think she died in Bridgend, but is buried in Swansea and Nelson was buried with her. On census records, he tended not to answer and once gave her name as Nelson also, but I think it was Elizabeth.
Br1gau, I have read many of the articles, but had not seen the one of William Scamp, or Nelson and the bacon. Nelson and Samson are the family I am looking at, as both were Scamps; Nelson baptised as a Scamp, and Samson I have not found. William Scamp I am also aware of, but that was the first mention of him being in Wales, so thanks.
Around that time, there are 3/4 Scamp families in or around Wales from single baptism records, of which some died very young. Some seem to be travelling into Wales from a base in Bristol. I am struggling to find any evidence after that, as Scamp or Williams.
Samson Williams married Gravalina Lee. He and the children are listed on the Scamp oral list of the University of Liverpool. So is Nelson. But there are many on that list, who seem to be brothers and sisters, that I cannot find evidence of.
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there's a baptism 24 Jan 1847 in Maesteg for Sylvester son of Samuel & Bennah Scamp
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1B3-J8Z
Haven't found the register for the baptism but the baby died and his burial 7 Feb in Cadoxton juxta Neath notes abode as 'temporary tent in this parish'
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Thanks Osprey, I am aware of that birth and death, but who are Samuel and Bennah? Are they the parents of Samson, who claims to have been born a year later about 20 miles away? On the oral list, there are 3 Sam/Samuels and one could be a brother of Nelson.
Added: On the Oral list, there is; 4. Sam Scamp sp. Tianna ? Could Bennah be Tianna. Many on that list are spelt differently to the records found. There are a couple of newspaper articles that say Samuel Williams was a travelling gipsy camping a little north of Carmarthen, in court for having a fire too close to the road.
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trying to find other records for the couple...
Baptism in Llangynwyd 7 May 1857 Shanros, born 2 April, son of Samuel, basket maker & gipsy, & Piana Williams
Haven't spotted this child later as yet. :-\
1881 census for Samson gives his place of birth as Cwmavon, not far from Maesteg & Llangynwyd.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2W9-FKTJ
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/MichaelstonSuperAvon/Cwmavon
There's this Nelson Williams in tents in 1881, same page as your Edwin & Subi Evans & children.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2W9-JJ1M
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Thanks, I had not found Shandros. On the oral tree there is 5. Shandra Scamp sp. Dona Lovel. And seems to link with 4. Sam Scamp sp. Tianna ? It would help if I could make sense of the tree.
As for Nelson in 1881, it says he is 60, which ties in with him being 80 when he died.
Is Piana a Boswell? I am thinking I have seen it somewhere, probably on RootsChat.
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couple more baptisms
30 May 1852 Glyntawe, Breconshire Celena dau of Samuel, travelling hawker, & Piana Williams, Blaen Mill
12 July 1863 Panteg, Mon Ashala dau of Samuel, traveller, & Piana Williams of Glasgoed
Birth reg Ashella Williams sept qtr 1863 Pontypool vol 11a pg 117 mmn Boswell
Burial 10 Oct 1872 Aberavon Ashella Williams 7 Aberavon
;)
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I don’t know how to quote a thread section, but this is from: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=332370.msg6836161#msg6836161 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=332370.msg6836161#msg6836161)
The issue seems to be briefly discussed by Karen Fitzgerald.
‘This tells of the Lee family and that Tom Lee married Selina Scamp. Ok, so in the 1881 Census for Pontypridd, Glamorganshire, Wales, they are listed as living with her parents Samuel Williams and Mary. In Breconshire, Wales baptisma, 30 May 1852 is Celena Williams daughter of Samuel Williams and Piana Williams.’
I had just found it when you posted. Interesting though, as it talks of Scamp family names, then influencing names within the Lee family.
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1891 census
St Dogmells, Pembs RG12/4544 folio 7 pg 7
Shanders Camp head mar 33 basket maker b. Swansea
Dona wife 30 b. Brec, Talybont
Elizth Lovely grandmother widow 77 b. Herefordshire? - the surname could be Lovell.
Possible burial for Shanros, address The Van, Derwydd, Burry Port
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCLX-CC3
Birth reg Shandress Williams jun qtr 1857 Swansea vol 11a pg 529 mmn Boswell
Marriage reg ? Shandras Campkin sept qtr 1885 Carmarthen with Mary Griffiths & Hannorah Evans on the same page :-\
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Burry Port makes sense as it was a favourite spot for traveller families. The church has many traveller graves and many more without a headstone. I know Edwin's son Daniel and his wife Catherine are there. Edwin and Subie are in Swansea. There were churches they liked, where they as travellers would be welcomed.
Donna was a Lovell. I am not sure about the marriage.
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this possible birth?
Dona Evans sept qtr 1860 Brecknock vol 11a pg 101 mmn Lovell
Baptism in Llangunnor, Carms 29 July 1860 Donna born 10 July daughter of John, basket maker, & Sarah Lovell.
Burial Pembrey 16 Feb 1939 Dona Camp 77 Living Van near Ashburnham Works, Burry Port
1871 census 40 Bethesda Street Merthyr Tydfil RG10/5401 folio 65 pg 2
William Lovell head mar 56 grinder b. Exeter
Elizabeth wife 60 b. Pontypool
Lewis son unmar 30 basket maker b. Gloucester
Adolphus son 15 basket maker b. Darlaston, Staffs
Dona dau 9 b. Brecon
Sarack son 8 b. Tredegar
Tranity son 6 b. Talybont, Brec
Sarah wife mar 28 b. Newent, Glos
the Lovells in a tent in 1861, next to another family headed by Edecia (?) Lovell
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7BT-2ZH
Elizabeth's age looks more like 46 on the census, place of birth America ??
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baptism Pembrey 1 Jan 1893 Selina dau of Shanders, basket maker, & Donna Camp address gipsy's tent
birth reg Selina Camp dec qtr 1892 Carmarthen vol 11a pg 1051 mmn Lovell
1911 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWXQ-5B3
School admission for Walter Camp born 1 May 1899 to Twynyrodyn School gives previous school as Llanelli.
Selina's admission 1903 in Tredegar gives dob 9 July 1893, father John on both records.
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Pembrey again.
I have not found Dona Evans yet, but there is a more distant strand with Evans/Lovell mixes in and around Brecon.
Eric Trudgill suggests ‘?Richard Evans b.c.1844 x Spizianna Boswell = Peanna Boswell b. Aberavon Glamorgan 8/5/1866 d/o Spisane’.
The only child offered on the oral tree for 5. Shandra Scamp sp. Dona Lovel is 6. Lena Scamp. Considering some of the other spellings that will be Selina.
Thanks Osprey for your help. The births found are adding dates to the list and creating a sense of order. I am actually a Williams and wondering if the family were originally Scamps. My grandfather and g-grandfather were hawkers mainly of fish, but my g-grandfather also had a lemonade making machine. When my g-grandfather died my g-grandmother married Edwin Evans after Catherine had died. Also, his son Aran married her daughter Martha-Jane. My ggg-grandfather was John Williams, who I know nothing about other than he was a labourer. There is a John Scamp, who I also know nothing about. I suspect, there were more links to traveller families than the Evans pair.
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ooh, I saw a Peanna earlier
birth reg Peanna Boswell jun qtr 1866 Neath vol 11a pg 504 no maiden name
Also came across a couple of Lovells who may be of interest
birth reg Chesidine Lovell jun qtr 1863 Pontypool mmn Scamp
burial Llandaff 13 Sept 1864 Chisadine Lovell age 1 Canton
birth reg Frank Lovell march qtr 1866 Merthyr Tydfil mmn Scamps
Haven't found Frank later on as yet.
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St Luke Parish Register . Pontnewynydd . Monmouthshire . 645 . 12 Apr 1863 . Cheseldine Lovell . Female . Father: Frank Lovell . Basket Maker . Mother: Ocean . Abode: Cwmnantddu
Added: Christening: Ocean Camp . Female . 26 Mar 1797 . Saint Andrew, Enfield, London . Mother: Christien Camp . Digital Folder: 008041031 . Microfilm: 585400. Probably not as she would be 66.
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From the oral list, Samuel Scamp was born before Nelson in 1829. One child had parents Samuel and Bennah, then in 1863 Samuel and Piana Williams. The Peana found, was born in 1866, after those 2 baptisms. There must be an earlier Peana/Bennah.
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this might be the family of Frank Lovell in 1881, although the wife is named Elizabeth.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WM-YYY8
birth reg of Cornelius in 1878 gives mmn as Lovell.
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Thanks, The others seem right, so a second wife, or using a different name.
For John, the only Newport registration has mmn Clark. Even other places they could have travelled to, there is no mmn Lovell. For Mary J, I could not find a registration. Only Cornelius is accurate.
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Just checking Lovell baptisms and spotted this in Ystradyfodwg
22 Oct 1876 Trinity son of William Smith, tinman, and Spizenny of Pentre
same day as another Chisadine son of Hezekiah, basket maker, and Isavia(?) Lovell of Pentre
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I think this might be Peanna/Bennah:
Baptism: Piana Picot Boswell . Female . 23 Jan 1825 . Bottesford, Lincolnshire .
Father: Thomas Boswell . Mother: Hetty Boswell . Digital Folder: 007566504 . Microfilm: 001450414 . Image: 00947
Born the same year as Samuel Scamp/Williams. It seems a name that repeated within the Boswell family.
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Regarding the previous post ‘Frank Lovell in 1881, although the wife is named Elizabeth.’ On Romany Genes there is a passenger list for the ship the Pembroke 22nd June 1874
Frank Lovell 43 born Cardiff, Wales
Elizabeth Lovell born abt 1834 Cardiff, Wales
Edingel Lovell age 24 female abt 1850 Cardiff, Wales
Lewellyn Lovell abt 1851 Cardiff, Wales
Sophia Lovell age 22 born abt 1852 Cardiff, Wales
Fyence Lovell born Cardiff, Wales
Mary Jane Lovell born Cardiff, Wales
John Lovell born Cardiff, Wales
They went to America and returned.
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that explains the US birth of Phoenix. There's another Phoenix, daughter of John & Edengell born in 1873 but there's a possible death reg the following year.
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Hi All,
Attempting to make sense of the Scamp/Williams family, I searched on RootsChat and found this thread, which I started and had totally forgotten about. (It must be my age.)
I looked through the GRO for Williams (Scamp) with mmn Boswell from 1855 when Thomas Williams married Sarah Boswell. Having found children, I have struggled to place them on any census. I also tried to locate them within the Oral Scamp list from Liverpool University, that was also shown on Romany Genes. From the list, I created a family tree starting with ‘Raili Scamp (Eat-The-Cat) sp. Vansi Lee, daughter of Sam Lee’, I added their children according to the list. Then I added the grandchildren. I was looking for Thomas Williams who married Sarah Boswell. It took ages before I realised they are on the list as ‘Tom Scamp (? Hairy Tom, sp. Sally Lovel, emigrated to America) sp. Sally, daughter of Dick Boswell and Kitty Evans’. The name changes confused until the penny dropped and I saw the link.
Eric Trudgill has not listed any children for Thomas Williams and Sarah Boswell, though they emigrated to America, but I do not know when.
There are two couples that would be recorded as Williams mmn Boswell. Within the thread, Osprey offered several baptisms and of the children I found, most can be placed with Samuel Williams (Scamp) and Pianna Boswell.
Does anyone know when Thomas and Sarah Williams (nee. Boswell but also called Lovel and also called Sally) emigrated to America, and if they had any children before leaving? Her parents were Richard (Dick) Boswell and Catherine (Kitty) Evans, so I do not know where Lovel originated from.
There is a registration I found with a distinctive name. I have seen the name somewhere before, but cannot remember where, though could have been on Romany Genes. Any ideas? Lingamvile Williams . mmn Boswell . Aug-Sep 1865 . Pontypool . Volume 11a . Page 123. It is a shame the Romany Genes website is no longer available, in being such a useful resource.
Talacharn
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is that the Thomas Williams who married Sarah Boswell in Pembrey Church 28 Aug 1854? His father William Riley Williams, tinman, and her Richard Boswell, bellhanger, witnesses Henry Wilkins and Samuel Lee.
Possible baptism for Sarah in Pembridge, Herefordshire 29 March 1831 daughter of Richard & Catherine Boswell.
Do you know where they went in the States as their names are not uncommon?
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Hi Osprey, That is the right family and Sarah was the eldest. It would seem they were moving to Wales, as the other children were born in Wales. Her mother was Clevancy/Vansi/Sarah Lee.
I only know from the Oral Scamp list that they emigrated to America. It does not help with them using different names.
The 1851 census has parents and some of the children living in a house in Newtown. Sarah is not one of them and she had not married. Israel (William) is also missing and I suspect a few more were with them working/travelling. The main reference to that family, even in Eric Trudgill’s book, is the census record.