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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: andrewalston on Monday 13 September 21 15:49 BST (UK)
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My auntie dropped a new (to me) bit of family history during her visit this morning.
Her husband (1925-1996) had been married before, and divorced. When he married for the second time, he had been recorded as a bachelor, so I hadn't guessed.
So I spent an hour or so going through ScotlandsPeople and trying to jog her memory. I had to look up the areas of Glasgow again to narrow things down.
I found the marriage in 1944. He was 19 and in the army; she was 16 and pregnant. Their son was born later that year. Following their divorce, both remarried in 1953.
So another few surnames added to the tree!
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That's family history for you Andrew ;D You get the occasional curve ball thrown in the mix which you then have to research to check it out.
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My recent DNA test threw up some unexpected results.
I was expecting one family story to be disproved, but it turns out I do indeed have Swedish ancestry, just not the individual I have in my tree.
On top of that, a 6% Asian ethnicity result has thrown my Yorkshire connections out the window.
Expect the unexpected.....
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One of my neighbours recently told us about his DNA results. Pakistan popped up as one of his ethnicities. He is a Romany so that must be a bit of deep ancestry showing up. His son went straight out and bought him a prayer mat ;D
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My recent DNA test threw up some unexpected results.
I was expecting one family story to be disproved, but it turns out I do indeed have Swedish ancestry, just not the individual I have in my tree.
On top of that, a 6% Asian ethnicity result has thrown my Yorkshire connections out the window.
Expect the unexpected.....
Interesting. What makes you think the 6% Asian ethnicity throws your Yorks connections out of the window?
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Today I found a probate calendar entry for someone in my tree and I don't recognise the name of the person probate was granted to, investigation time.
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Interesting. What makes you think the 6% Asian ethnicity throws your Yorks connections out of the window?
That's the line that I have narrowed it down to. The percentage matches up with my 2x great grandmother. Her common law husband was in and out of gaol, and the newspaper report of the inquest into her death mentioned Chinese people.
Her husband, though born in Australia was descended from a Yorkshire family.
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Interesting. What makes you think the 6% Asian ethnicity throws your Yorks connections out of the window?
That's the line that I have narrowed it down to. The percentage matches up with my 2x great grandmother. Her common law husband was in and out of gaol, and the newspaper report of the inquest into her death mentioned Chinese people.
Her husband, though born in Australia was descended from a Yorkshire family.
Aah that explains it. I would say that if her common law husband was in and out of jail a lot, then your 2xgreat gran would have sought some comfort elsewhere.
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My recent DNA test threw up some unexpected results.
I was expecting one family story to be disproved, but it turns out I do indeed have Swedish ancestry, just not the individual I have in my tree.
On top of that, a 6% Asian ethnicity result has thrown my Yorkshire connections out the window.
Expect the unexpected.....
Swedish could just be Viking ancestry, everyone in my bloodline who has been tested shows Swedish or Norwegian, and as we have half northern English ancestry, I am quite sure that is what is it.
OH has 50% Scandinavian but in his case, it's accurate, his mother was Danish/Swedish. In fact, his DNA analysis seems very accurate over all, unlike mine, which has a huge dollop of Scottish, from who knows where. All my lines back at least 6 generations are English, then there might be a bit of Scottish or Irish in there, but not enough to justify 16%. And yes, I have matched to just about all my lines to someone on Ancestry DNA, so no unexpected fathers in there (I know about those, and they are English too!).
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DianaCanada are any of your English ancestors from "up north" ? I think Scottish ancestry tends to show up in people who are from northern England ..maybe a small amount in several ancestors would explain the 13 percent .
My mother has a similar amount but it turned out one of her great great grandmothers was from Scotland..not sure how she ended up in a small village in Northamptonshire.
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Susieroe I'd just learnt that many true Romany families have Indian or Pakistani origins .
Helping a friend whose matches had caravan dwelling ancestors but they turned out not to be descended from the Romany line that some had on their trees . Ethnicity helped confirm that they were from a Welsh line with same surname !
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DianaCanada are any of your English ancestors from "up north" ? I think Scottish ancestry tends to show up in people who are from northern England ..maybe a small amount in several ancestors would explain the 13 percent .
My mother has a similar amount but it turned out one of her great great grandmothers was from Scotland..not sure how she ended up in a small village in Northamptonshire.
Not very far north - Lancashire, Yorkshire (mostly West but one line East), and Cheshire. One line in Manchester possibly Irish 6 generations back, and yes one unknown male ancestor 5 generations back. Maternal side is Sussex and some Kent well back into the 1700s.
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My Swedish ancestry is a large percentage, so not just Viking ancestry. I have quite a few DNA matches with Swedish researchers, but so far too distant to find an exact match.
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My gran was from Northern England but her mother was a Londoner, however one of her ancestors in Sussex was the daughter of a man who was once a Mayor of Kings Lynn Norfolk, and was from Warrington originally.
My gran's father was from up north but met great gran in London in 1918 when he was in the Coldstream Guards. He was part Scottish.
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Susieroe I'd just learnt that many true Romany families have Indian or Pakistani origins .
Helping a friend whose matches had caravan dwelling ancestors but they turned out not to be descended from the Romany line that some had on their trees . Ethnicity helped confirm that they were from a Welsh line with same surname !
brigidmac, I've only today received an email with your post, it seems I didn't keep up with the thread.
May I ask a long shot: is your friend from Leicester? My Mum remembered Grandma taking her to visit a relative in a caravan in Leicester circa 1920s. She told me definitely not gypsy but that there were beautiful things there like china and glass that I know Romanies collect. Did you ever hear of a caravan community in Leicester?
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My dad's younger siblings were born in 1952 and 1960 respectively, and I expected both to be baptised soon after birth, but the elder one was baptised the same day as the 1960 born sister, both baptised 9th July 1961 according to nan's diary transcripts. Slightly unexpected but still a nice tale to tell on here.
Although lots of children were baptised as a job lot especially by the early 1900s onwards.
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Although lots of children were baptised as a job lot especially by the early 1900s onwards.
One of my lines originated from the British owned Kingdom of Hannover on the European Mainland.
He and his maternal line were Ev. Lutheran religion but listed on a census was his father, who with his wife and his family of several girls were all listed as Catholic. As soon as the girls were born they were immediately baptised at the local Ev. Lutheran church.,. Eventually the Catholic father trvelled several miles with his family to the nearest Catholic church where the girls were taken into the faith. The archivist informed me that it was quite normal if a man found work in a Lutheran district he could have them baptised in thelocal church and then in later years have them confirmed into the catholic faith.
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Susie no the caravan dwellers were Newport wales.
I am Leicester based but don't have Leicester ancestors and don't know of caravan communities here.
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In smaller parishes in different parts of England, I've seen "job lot" baptisms on several occasions.
I've often wondered if there was a fee attached for the service, or, being smaller parishes, perhaps there was a part-time vicar (vicar of more than one parish).
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In smaller parishes in different parts of England, I've seen "job lot" baptisms on several occasions.
I've often wondered if there was a fee attached for the service, or, being smaller parishes, perhaps there was a part-time vicar (vicar of more than one parish).
Often the batching of children was because of a change of denomination, but I have come across occasions when a baby was being baptised and there has obviously been a comment along the lines of "Why have we not seen <list of toddlers> yet?"
Then I have a batch in Halifax, Nova Scotia in 1818. The eldest of the children was 13, and it was her first visit to the mainland from Sable Island. Her younger four siblings visited the font at the same event.
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I found a job lot baptism in 1792 in Felstead, Essex, of some of my Childs's ancestors and their siblings.
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Talking of job lot baptisms has reminded me of another instance of expect the unexpected.
William Youatt, one of my colourful ancestors, was first a nonconformist minister in Chichester Sussex, and then later became a vet in London, and one of the founders of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. What was unexpected was to discover that his five daughters were all apparently conceived by surrogacy. It doesn't appear to have been an affair, as the birth mother of the children followed the family to London, and lived close by, giving birth to the younger four in London. One daughter lived with her non-birth mother until the latter's death.
Even more unexpected was finding the first two daughters' adult baptisms in 1843 in St Pancras, the middle one in 1843 in Manchester, and the younger two in 1844 in St Pancras. Why they chose to be baptized in the established church as adults when they did, I don't know.
Sadly, William Youatt committed suicide in 1847, depressed by financial debts.
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Talking of job lot baptisms has reminded me of another instance of expect the unexpected.
William Youatt, one of my colourful ancestors, was first a nonconformist minister in Chichester Sussex, and then later became a vet in London, and one of the founders of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. What was unexpected was to discover that his five daughters were all apparently conceived by surrogacy. It doesn't appear to have been an affair, as the birth mother of the children followed the family to London, and lived close by, giving birth to the younger four in London. One daughter lived with her non-birth mother until the latter's death.
Even more unexpected was finding the first two daughters' adult baptisms in 1843 in St Pancras, the middle one in 1843 in Manchester, and the younger two in 1844 in St Pancras. Why they chose to be baptized in the established church as adults when they did, I don't know.
Sadly, William Youatt committed suicide in 1847, depressed by financial debts.
Fascinating story! How did you figure out the surrogacy bit?
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I was given the information by a veterinary history researcher, who had researched William Youatt. Based on the records alone, it's hard to tell. The surrogate mother, Keziah Jones, was born not far from Chichester. Only the eldest girl was born in Chichester, the other four all in London. To have five children with the same woman over 13 years, in two different locations, suggests some form of arrangement. It's also telling that the girls lived with the Youatts, and not their birth mother. The Youatts had no children between them either.
William Youatt was a free thinker. He travelled through Napoleonic Europe, and wrote of his travels under a pseudonym. Quite entertaining reading.
I guess the situation could be interpreted either way, but based on everything above, I lean towards surrogacy, rather than simple illegitimacy. It's also interesting that when they were baptized, the girls all had the Youatt name, yet Keziah was listed as the mother. It doesn't seem they tried to hide it at all.
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For those interested, William Youatt is apparently the real author of books written by Edmund Boyce. Several translations as well as the book described in my previous post.
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My aunt recalled that a particular Irish aunt of hers married somebody by the name of Jim Jacobs, but we found definitive evidence of my Irish great aunt's marriage to a Daniel Burns, and let it rest, assuming that my aunt's memory was playing tricks on her.
It was, but not in the way we thought. It turns out that my great aunt got a divorce (obviously not in Ireland) and got married a second time - to somebody called James Julian. So my aunt was correct that she married a JJ where both the Js were male given names.
One thing I've learnt - never rule out family stories even when you think they've been proven wrong !
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Oh yes, most family stories have a kernel of truth.
I was told years ago that someone on my paternal side helped invent a very common medicine today. It turns out a first cousin of my great grandfather's worked for the Burroughs Pharmaceutical Company (later Burroughs Wellcome); as far as I know they invented Sudafed.
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Another unexpected situation turned up recently when I was researching a couple in Hull, Yorkshire who married in 1854 but no births found until 1864 and then there were five and perhaps six over the next ten years. I thought they had simply not registered earlier children, but the wife, who was widowed by 1911, stated that she’d had five children, three living. The powers that were had crossed out her entry, as it was only supposed to be included with married couples. Hard to fathom ten years of infertility and then regular births for ten years.
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Did the husband work away perhaps, or was he a guest of Her Majesty?
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Did the husband work away perhaps, or was he a guest of Her Majesty?
In 1861 he was a railway porter and by 1871 a coal dealer. The couple were Thomas Christopher Ward and Eliza Wilkinson, married in 1853, not as I previously stated, 1854.
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Susie no the caravan dwellers were Newport wales.
I am Leicester based but don't have Leicester ancestors and don't know of caravan communities here.
Thanks anyway. Now that was unexpected as I was sure you had deep Leicester roots! ;D
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I have a couple who wed in 1866 and their first child was born 1872. The couple said in the 1911 census they had 6 children born alive, 2 who had died. All found to be born inbetween 1872 and 1885. And the couple always lived in the same village during marriage.
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Perhaps it was a health issue for one or either of the couple. Perhaps improved nutrition improved that, would need medical expertise!
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Mother-in-law had an aunt who married in 1891 and had 14 children. If it wasn't for cemetery records I wouldn't have been able to prove family stories about many of the children died young.
1. daughter died 11 days old (bronchitis)
2. stillborn daughter 1894
3. stillborn son 1895
4. son 1896 died 16 hours old
5. son 1897 died 8 days old
6. son 1898 (survived)
7. stillborn daughter 1899
8. son 1900 (survived)
9. son 1902 (survived)
10. son 1904 died aged 4 months
11. daughter 1906 (survived)
12. son 1907 (survived)
13.daughter 1909 (survived)
14. daughter 1912 died age 17 years
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It always saddens me to see the number of children who died young. Apart from sicknesses running through towns and villages, the child mortality rate definitely went up with the migration to the big cities.
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A several year gap between marriage and first child can be a series of miscarriages the woman had before she had a successful pregnancy. Maybe they married because she was expecting a child whom was miscarried just before or after the wedding date, or even sadly on the date itself.
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Miscarriages are sometimes the reason for gaps in births of children.
On a similar note, it only occurred to me the other day possible reasons why certain individuals in our trees didn't marry and/or have children. I'm sure we've all got these ancestors. In the past, I had mostly assumed I just hadn't found a marriage yet. But reading a newspaper article from 1824 where ot mentioned that two of a particular couple's children were "idiots", and one of those was also "crippled", it made me think. How many of those ancestors in our trees who only have a baptism and a burial were physically or mentally handicapped in some way? Or even perhaps attracted to the same sex?
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When I was following up the distant relatives a few years ago, I noted in the 1861 census that a 34 yr old man was listed as deaf. He appeared to be living alone, probably in a very poor dwelling and was a yardman on a farm. He died 2 years later, and I found that he committed suicide. Most of his close family had died or left the village, and I guess he was a lonely man.
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Miscarriages are sometimes the reason for gaps in births of children.
On a similar note, it only occurred to me the other day possible reasons why certain individuals in our trees didn't marry and/or have children. I'm sure we've all got these ancestors. In the past, I had mostly assumed I just hadn't found a marriage yet. But reading a newspaper article from 1824 where ot mentioned that two of a particular couple's children were "idiots", and one of those was also "crippled", it made me think. How many of those ancestors in our trees who only have a baptism and a burial were physically or mentally handicapped in some way? Or even perhaps attracted to the same sex?
I had a work colleague who in the old days I think would be described as a "moron" in medical terms. He was born 1944 so would be almost 80 now but he did not have his mind on the job at the best of times and had a mental age of 8 or 9, and could be disruptive. He was put on cleaning mainly as he was next to useless on anything else, when he prepared food he was slow and the finished product was messy. One supervisor used to pick on him a bit, he may have thought "Why is this company employing such a person?". His mum had a difficult birth and he was starved of oxygen. I did feel sorry for him though as he was challenged. He was known to occasionally pick up dropped food and eat it, such as a dried up chip or raw prawn, and he was know to grab people, especially women by the arm quite hard, in a way he saw as friendly, and he got spoken to about it.
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Susieroe I'd just learnt that many true Romany families have Indian or Pakistani origins .
Helping a friend whose matches had caravan dwelling ancestors but they turned out not to be descended from the Romany line that some had on their trees . Ethnicity helped confirm that they were from a Welsh line with same surname !
brigidmac, I've only today received an email with your post, it seems I didn't keep up with the thread.
May I ask a long shot: is your friend from Leicester? My Mum remembered Grandma taking her to visit a relative in a caravan in Leicester circa 1920s. She told me definitely not gypsy but that there were beautiful things there like china and glass that I know Romanies collect. Did you ever hear of a caravan community in Leicester?
Susieroe
There were some in belgrave, Leicester at one time. From memory, some were fairground families.
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It's worth considering the large travelling communities associated with the expansion of the railways and before that the canals.
I have a branch of my family that followed the building of the Great Western line from Shrewsbury to South Wales and back over a period of 70 years or so. They started with simple labouring jobs progressing to Signal Engineers then to Porters and Station Managers as they became older and less able to do the more manual work. The clue was all of there abodes where associated with or near railway depots.
Any where in the midlands there is the likelihood of canal navies and bargemen being away from home for long periods of time or the family travelling together. I have a William Randle Potts in my tree born 1841 in Bedworth on the Coventry Canal not baptised until 1852 - mother & father were married in 1845. Father's occupation in 1851- Boatman.
So although not true travellers, the lifestyle is similar.
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It looks like I may have cracked a long term brickwall in the term of a marriage of William Mayhew to Elizabeth Bridges. They had children in Hacheston, Suffolk, and usefully that parish gave the mother's maiden name.
He was born 1786 in Sweffling and she in about 1781. I found an Eliz Bridges wed a Robert Scott in Wickham Market in 1806, and an Elizabeth Scot wed a William May in October 1809 in Wickham Market. Wonder if William May is a mistake for Mayhew. The original will reveal more. Robert Scott died in 1807 in Pettistree, aged 33.
Another thing that was unexpected and shows that a couple who are your ancestors may have been married before.
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Some interesting stories here. My Father-In-Law was a Master Rigger who made ships ropes on the docks. We were watching a documentary on TV about the Whaling Industry in Hull. It showed a film clip of the Piquod in Hull Dock being rigged for the filming of "Moby Dick" and there was OH's Father up the mast doing the rigging.
Carol
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Susieroe I'd just learnt that many true Romany families have Indian or Pakistani origins .
Helping a friend whose matches had caravan dwelling ancestors but they turned out not to be descended from the Romany line that some had on their trees . Ethnicity helped confirm that they were from a Welsh line with same surname !
MVann, thank you for confirming that, I had wondered about fairgrounds. Grandma's dad worked at "Bungy" Richards foundry in Belgrave so a connection nearby. I'm going to look into the wider family a bit more intensely now.
brigidmac, I've only today received an email with your post, it seems I didn't keep up with the thread.
May I ask a long shot: is your friend from Leicester? My Mum remembered Grandma taking her to visit a relative in a caravan in Leicester circa 1920s. She told me definitely not gypsy but that there were beautiful things there like china and glass that I know Romanies collect. Did you ever hear of a caravan community in Leicester?
Susieroe
There were some in belgrave, Leicester at one time. From memory, some were fairground families.
MVann, thank you for confirming that. Grandma's dad worked at "Bungy" Richards foundry in Belgrave so a connection there. I must look a bit closer into the wider family connections.
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On the subject of children, my great grandmother Emily Smith had two children in quick succession before she married, although both died in infancy.
She was about six months pregnant when she married in December 1868 and gave birth to a son in June 1869. There was then a six year gap before she gave birth to twins in June 1875. There were no further children. So far so good.
Then I did a DNA test and discovered that the twins were not fathered by her husband, but by a man from the other end of the county. At that point I'd done thirty years research and I didn't recognise any of my close matches!
I'm about to suggest to a descendant of the first son that they do a DNA test, just in case Emily was carrying another man's child at the time she married.
So many questions. Did she know? Did her husband know? Did the twins know? Did the father know? There can be no doubt. The resemblance, even in the present generation, is striking.
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Does a DNA test tell you that her twins weren't her husband's children, and also, who he really was .....
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On the subject of children, my great grandmother Emily Smith had two children in quick succession before she married, although both died in infancy.
She was about six months pregnant when she married in December 1868 and gave birth to a son in June 1869. There was then a six year gap before she gave birth to twins in June 1875. There were no further children. So far so good.
Then I did a DNA test and discovered that the twins were not fathered by her husband, but by a man from the other end of the county. At that point I'd done thirty years research and I didn't recognise any of my close matches!
I'm about to suggest to a descendant of the first son that they do a DNA test, just in case Emily was carrying another man's child at the time she married.
So many questions. Did she know? Did her husband know? Did the twins know? Did the father know? There can be no doubt. The resemblance, even in the present generation, is striking.
This means Emily became pregnant with the twins in the autumn of 1974, probably born a month early as twins often were born early. So around October 1874. Maybe the supposed husband was working away a lot, if he worked as a labourer he may have worked away for weeks at a time.
I know bridal pregnancies were very common in those days. Although over time DNA testing will reveal what percentage of the men she was marrying was the father of the unborn baby or another man. I say about 2 to 3%.
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I just found a direct ancestor transported to Australia in 1791. I found at Suffolk Lowestoft branch the microfilm of the poor law records that survive for his deanery lead me to find he was in jail in the 1780s when his wife and children wee in the workhouse, then when I was searching online later on, the newspaper archives said he was in trouble again in 1791 for stealing a hog and transported to NSW for 7 years.