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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: thegoat on Monday 06 September 21 15:10 BST (UK)
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Searching for definitive parental info on my 2xgreat-grandfather Henry James Harris who gave his birthday as 27 August 1866 on the 1939 register, and place of birth as Cross Street, Old Kent Road on 1911 census.
Best match on birth register (in attached image) for Henry J Harris, registered in Lambeth in third quarter 1866, Vol 1d page 396: ordered birth certificate from GRO.gov but have received refund and message “ There is no trace of the above mentioned person at the reference you quoted.”
Can anyone advise why I got this response?! Does this mean the original register was wrong, or the record has gone missing, or something else?
TIA
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Failure to register a birth only became a fineable offence in 1874/5 so it's not unusual to be unable to find a birth prior to then
Have you found him on earlier censuses?
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Frustrating. When you filled out the order form did you fill in out exactly as shown. J. and not James?
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I must admit that I can see the birth on FreeBMD but not on this GRO Birth Index. Are my eyes decieving me :-\
Kay
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I’ve just looked on the GRO site. They give the page number as 384
Added: MMN Heard. Does that sound right?
Adding more: I don’t think that’s it. There’s no middle initial for the 384 one. And March quarter. Sorry, definitely the wrong one.
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I understand the GRO digital index was created differently to the others. The information as been missed when they compiled their index, it is clearly in the printed index.
If you click on report a problem on the GRO website, it gives the option to report a missing entry. I did that with one I had in a similar situation and they rectified it.
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I’ve just looked on the GRO site. They give the page number as 384
Added: MMN Heard. Does that sound right?
That is the wrong quarter for an August birth.
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Familysearch has it as 1d 255 ::)
Mike
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This on freebmd but not on GRO?
Harris Henry J Q3/1866 Lambeth 1d 396
Colin
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Is he The Henry that marries Mary Pennikett in 1890?
That maiden name matches the children's birth. On his marriage cert he gives his father as Henry James Harris. In 1891 he also gives Old Kent Road as place of birth.
Tazzie
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If I have the correct marriage for Henry James Harris based on the 1911 census
HJH married Mary Pennikett in 1890, his father also HJH a labourer. Witnesses Charles & Susan Sarah Doswell. This couple in 1891 have children mmn Harris.
Birth
Susan Sarah Harris
1861 Bermondsey
mmn Akers
also
Henry James Harris
Dec 1866 St George Southwark
mmn Akers
Doswell/ Harris marriage has her father as Henry George Harris, a clerk
1871 census
Henry G is a grocer / cheesemonger b 1836 Surrey
all children mmn Akers includes Susan and Henry
601/39/22
Posts crossed
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Familysearch has it as 1d 255 ::)
Mike
I have just checked the Family Search entry, it's a transcription not an image. If you look again 255 is the Affiliate Line Number 255, not the page which is correctly shown as 396.
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If you look at the the number of entries on the same page as Henry J HARRIS (1d p396) in Lambeth there are eleven, which suggests one is indexed twice.
One of the entries on that page is a Henry J ELDRIDGE- he does appear in the GRO index as Henry John (not James), and with no mother's maiden name shown.
The GRO index doesn't use the same rules as were used when the printed indexed were compiled, so it normal to see differences , and that doesn't necessarily mean it is an error.
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Thanks all!!
Quite a bit to unpick there!
Comberton - new leads for me to follow, thanks. Fathers name of Henry George is different to what our Henry James has recorded on his marriage to Mary Penniket (also a Henry James) so either this is a related but different Henry Harris, or there was an error on the marriage cert.
There are several possible Henry Harris in the 1861,71,81 censuses in the right general area of London, hence thought the birth certificate would be the best way to be surest of the right family to follow.
AntonyMMM - I’ve not quite understood the full implications of your post I think! Do you essentially mean that there isn’t actually a birth record for a Henry J Harris in that quarter (because of some kind of double entry issue)? In which case I guess it’s not worth pursuing any further with the GRO. Or does the double entry issue mean that there IS a birth record/certificate for ‘my’ Henry James Harris in that quarter but that the reference for the GRO should be different?!
Thanks again all
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An example of what a twice indexed birth registration might record is:
Henry John, Father XXX ELDRIDGE, Mother XXX HARRIS
The 'old' indexes would show this twice, indexed under each surname as the mother has a different surname to the father.
The newer GRO index will only show it indexed under the surname of the father with no mother's maiden surname because they have no knowledge of whether or not the name HARRIS is her maiden surname.
If they were a married couple, or claiming to be, her name should be recorded as XXX ELDRIDGE formerly HARRIS.
Debra :)
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Henry G is a grocer / cheesemonger b 1836 Surrey
all children mmn Akers includes Susan and Henry
601/39/22
Henry G. was quite versatile. In 1881 he is a Chaff Cutter and in 1891 a Carman.
Debra :)
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Charles and Susan DOSWELL also witnessed the marriage of brother Edmund HARRIS in 1884. He thought his father was a Horse Keeper.
Debra :)
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An example of what a twice indexed birth registration might record is:
Henry John, Father XXX ELDRIDGE, Mother XXX HARRIS
The 'old' indexes would show this twice, indexed under each surname as the mother has a different surname to the father.
The newer GRO index will only show it indexed under the surname of the father with no mother's maiden surname because they have no knowledge of whether or not the name HARRIS is her maiden surname.
If they were a married couple, or claiming to be, her name should be recorded as XXX ELDRIDGE formerly HARRIS.
Debra :)
Thank you Debra, makes perfect sense :) :)
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Charles and Susan DOSWELL also witnessed the marriage of brother Edmund HARRIS in 1884. He thought his father was a Horse Keeper.
Debra :)
I guess with this variety of details for the elder Henry Harris it’s not so surprising if Henry junior got his fathers name wrong on his marriage certificate, or his own birthdate wrong later in life, or indeed that Henry senior maybe didn’t register his sons birth until a few months later…!!
It’s just worrying me a bit that there’s both the discrepancy in names and birth dates. Not sure how to work out for certain what are the correct names and dates :-\
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If your Henry was born 27 August then it was 5 weeks till the end of that quarter. If the birth was registered the following week it would then be in the December quarter.
I think the Henry John ELDRIDGE/HARRIS might have married Susannah MORE in 1887. In 1871/1881/1891 he is living with his uncle George Harris in Warlingham and said to be born in Dulwich. Just guessing though.
Debra :)
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If your Henry was born 27 August then it was 5 weeks till the end of that quarter. If the birth was registered the following week it would then be in the December quarter.
Makes sense! Thanks. So the record on freebmd for a Henry J in the 3rd quarter registered in Southwark would work. Will keep checking. Many thanks again debra. Have attached a pic of Henry :)