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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: reflector on Wednesday 01 September 21 16:40 BST (UK)
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Hi, its been a very long time since l was on here but because of roots l found my ancestors in Italy and have connected with their decendents so here is another one l need your help on.
Recently l met up with a cousin that l have not seen in over 40 years and she said she would like to know exactly what happened to her birth mother so this is the story.
My aunt Dorothy May Holland married my uncle Henry George Travi in 1948 in Southend on Sea Essex, my cousin) was born 1957 and the story goes that a couple of years later my aunt had another baby and was ill (today would be post natal depression) sadley she was put into Runwell Mental Hospital and my uncle set up home with another lady until 1978 when they married and told my cousin her mother had committed suicide and was buried in Finchingfield Essex but we cannot find any death and medical records are destroyed after 20 years. Sadley my cousin had an unhappy childhood with her step mother and would like closure. Can anybody out there help me . We are waiting to be able to visit finchingfield to see the church there and hopefully see a record of her death.
Thankyou Sandra.
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I can only find one baby born to the couple - the cousin you mention.
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When was Dorothy May Holland born?
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I can’t see any Travi/Holland births registered after Irene’s. I wonder if the baby was miscarried, or a stillbirth?
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Apart from Birth of a living person removed Volume 4a page 976 Mother's Maiden Name = Holland
No other Travi/Holland Births as previously stated..
However there is a Death of a 1 year old Baby Girl
Candice L Travi
in June Quarter 1961 in Islington District Volume 5c page 907
However no Trace of her Birth on freebmd in England and Wales so Birth may have taken place in Scotland or Ireland.
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Don't Assume her Death was Registered as Dorothy May Travi
Her Death may be under Holland
Or she could have remarried and Death under another Surname
Her Date of Birth or Year of Birth would help alot and where Born ?
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For what it's worth this is Henry's death
TRAVI, HENRY GEORGE 1911
GRO Reference: DOR Q4/1989 in SOUTHEND ON SEA (4751A) Volume 9 Page 3103
His birth date was 16 May 1911
His second wife Lily died in 1995
TRAVI, LILY ROSE 1915
GRO Reference: DOR Q1/1995 in SOUTHEND-ON-SEA (4751A) Reg A55B Entry Number 104
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l am afraid that is all the information l have and what lrene had been told by her step mother, if the story about the baby was true l think it was still born or miscarriage as there was never another baby in the family, l could not find a birth for Dorothy so searched for Holland with mothers maiden name Holland thinking she may have been illegitimate, only one for 1924 l have sent for this cert. l have searched under Holland and Travi and would her father be that wicked to say her birth mother had died. As you realise being in an asylum in the 60s would have not been spoken about but l do remember my mother saying she wondered how Dolly was but at the time nothing was done about it
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What I find interesting is that I cannot find either Henry or Dorothy on the 1939 Register. With women who have married there is usually the married surname alongside the maiden name with brackets round it. No trace whatsoever.
Henry is just as elusive even though I put in his birth date +/- two years.
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Have you considered ordering the Marriage Cert for Henry George Travi in 1978 to confirm his status at this time - widowed or divorced?
Tony
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With women who have married there is usually the married surname alongside the maiden name with brackets round it. No trace whatsoever.
Not always the case, though. My mother’s married name isn’t annotated against her maiden name in the 1939 Register.
I was going to suggest buying the 1948 Travi - Holland marriage certificate which will give Dorothy’s age and therefore some guide to her year of birth.
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That would be a good move, perhaps get that first rather than the 1978 marriage. I stated earlier that Henry was born in 1911 which was on his death details.
Not that when Henry was born is any guide, she could have been born earlier or later than him.
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From reply 4
Birth
Candice L Job
Jun 1959 Islington
5C 1352
mmn Furneaux
Deaths
Candice L Job age 1
Jun 1961 Islington
5C 907
and
Candice L Travi age 1
Jun 1961 Islington
5C 907
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Was HG already divorced when he married Dorothy?
Marriage of Henry G Travi to Elizabeth L Clench in Finsbury in June qtr 1940.
Elizabeth seems to have married again, also in 1948, to William Millett in Islington.
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Is it Dorothy or Henry who is your parent's (mother's?) sibling? If it is Dorothy do you know her parents' names?
Wildcard:
Deaths Southend Mar 1973 4A 3009
TRAVI, Mary (b. 24 April 1919)
Regards, Tony.
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There isn't a Mary but there is a Dorothy May who would fit the birth date given in antony's post.
HOLLAND, DOROTHY MAY LATHEY
GRO Reference: 1919 J Quarter in CHARD Volume 05C Page 439
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Wildcard:
Deaths Southend Mar 1973 4A 3009
TRAVI, Mary (b. 24 April 1919)
I think I see this one already married to a George T Travi in Islington 1939.
Tony.
Added:
Marriages Jun 1938 Islington 1B 381
TRAVI, George T + VARLEY, Mary (on same page)
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If it is this one
Marriages Jun 1938
Travi George T Varley Islington 1b 381
Varley Mary Travi Islington 1b 381
then her surname is obviously not Holland.
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Sorry GG, I 'added' as you were posting.
T.
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Henry or Dorothy on the 1939 Register.
1939 electoral register has Henry George Travi at 13 Risinghill Street, Finsbury, with the Travi family.
He's not at home with them on 29 September that year.
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Reflector, may I enquire whether you and your cousin have done Dna tests?
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Thank you for all your replies , he was married to E. Clench before Dolly and will check M. Cert to Lilly
I have fully researched the Travi Family so most of the names you are bringing up are all accounted for. i have done DNA when searching for Travi family may have to ask Irene to take one lets see how the search goes , l will keep you informed if we have a breakthrough.
sandra
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Just a little update Henry was in the forces so maybe thats why he is not there on Sept .
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Hi Sandra
With today's new post here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=862088.0 just wanted to ask whether you had ordered or seen the marriage registrations for Dorothy and Henry to confirm her details (age and father's name really) and also Henry's subsequent marriage to Lily (to confirm his marital status).
Monica
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I think this is your tree on Dorothy on Ancestry?
www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/180083210/person/102338870182/facts
You have this entry as her birth:
Dorothy M Holland
Mother's maiden name Holland
Braintree,
Essex
Vol 4a/ pg 1392
Dorothy's birth day you have as 1ST NOVEMBER 1923.
Monica
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This looks a good possibility for her death, with her surname mistranscribed/indexed:
Dorothy May Trair
Age 50
Birth date 1 Nov 1923
Apr 1974
Colchester Essex
Vol 9/ pg 1725
Monica
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This looks a good possibility for her death, with her surname mistranscribed/indexed:
Dorothy May Trair
Age 50
Birth date 1 Nov 1923
Apr 1974
Colchester Essex
Vol 9/ pg 1725
Monica
Great find Monica!
What a sad story all round, I hope your cousin gets the closure she's been searching for :(
Annie
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From reply 4
Birth
Candice L Job
Jun 1959 Islington
5C 1352
mmn Furneaux
Deaths
Candice L Job age 1
Jun 1961 Islington
5C 907
and
Candice L Travi age 1
Jun 1961 Islington
5C 907
Job/Furneaux marriage 1953 Stoke Newington...http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rji/
Could that birth (possibly the result of an affair) have been what affected Dorothy in reality?
Annie
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Thank you all for your replies most l already have but Monical thankyou that is the birth l have but most of all that death really does look like to right one d.o.b and age wished l had asked you before would have saved a lot of time and money sending for cert today , l just want to give Irene some closure.
Thank you so much will let you know if you have cracked it.
Sandra
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Please let us know how it goes :) As Annie says, we all hope your friend is able to find the details she needs regarding her mum.
As you mentioned, the next stage will be to find her burial. She may also have been cremated? Perhaps when you have confirmed that it is the correct death for Dorothy May and date of death, you could approach the local council's bereavement department and make enquiries about burial/cremation registers for those dates.
Monica
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I realise these records are closed for some time yet, but as they relate to your cousin’s mother she may be able to get permission to access them:
https://www.essexarchivesonline.co.uk/Result_Details.aspx?DocID=992333
Have you contacted any of the holders of these records to enquire? You may need to be assertive.
It seems unfair that these sorts of records may be closed until after the deaths of children who may wish to obtain parent’s records. Depending on the reason for their admission it could be something which is useful to know if it may affects later generations as some things are passed on.
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I realise these records are closed for some time yet, but as they relate to your cousin’s mother she may be able to get permission to access them:
https://www.essexarchivesonline.co.uk/Result_Details.aspx?DocID=992333
Have you contacted any of the holders of these records to enquire? You may need to be assertive.
It seems unfair that these sorts of records may be closed until after the deaths of children who may wish to obtain parent’s records. Depending on the reason for their admission it could be something which is useful to know if it may affects later generations as some things are passed on.
It is actually unlawful for the archive to keep those records closed to the deceased patients children under the Human Rights Act 1998 Articles 7 & 10.
Article 10 states "This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers."
It would be different if the lady's mother was alive as then her rights would have to be taken into account but as she is (I believe) deceased that does not apply.
If it is not possible to view the information without revealing information about other living patients the archive must provide a redacted copy or transcribed copy or allow the lady to copy the information herself.
Cheers
Guy
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I have been in touch with Essex Records office and they cannot open the Asylum records and advised me to write to Hospital Records at Basildon , l have done this twice and put in SAE but no reply when l did phone they said because of covid they are very busy and will get to the letter eventually that was in Feb so not holding out a lot of hope but will see what the death sert has to say and maybe take it from there. It does seem strange that we will be looking forward to going to Dorothy's grave or resting place but once again it closure for my cousin and l also hope that the family l think is Dorothy's is correct and maybe Irene will meet someone who knew her mother. I also realise how wicked her stepmother was for telling her that her mother was dead when she was about 8/9 but as a child myself l did not like the woman i am 6 years older than Irene. Fingers crossed all will be well in the end.
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Reflector, I think you need Guy on your case to get hold of those records. He won’t take no for an answer, and rightly so. ;D
On a serious note, persist in chasing them up, and best of luck to you and Irene.
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update on Dorothy May Travi, thankyou Monical l did send for that Death Cert and the Name Trair is actually on cert but everything else on the cert matches research l have done , l am so pleased l have been following the right family and also had match DNA for Irene her 2nd great-aunts line distant but the right family had taken a risk on following this family as had very little to go on and guess work.
The thing that amazes me is that the actual death cert has the wrong name and surely Henry Travi must have shown this to prove he was a widower very strange. Dorothy did die in Severalls Hospital which was a mental hospital at the time but no longer there suprise suprise a housing estate. The good thing is death described amongst other things Schizophrenia so not Irene fault. We are now going to look for burial and my niece has just moved to Finchingfield and has spoken to the priest who said he would look it up for her once we have death cert. I also wrote to last known address of mother some weeks ago but no reply sae enclosed and return address on envelope but nothing as yet , but thank you all once again and will keep you updated .
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I'm glad that the ends are coming together. but I just wanted to say that whatever the reason for Dorothy's illness, it would never have been Irene's "fault"; I really hope that she hasn't been made to believe the opposite!
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The thing that amazes me is that the actual death cert has the wrong name and surely Henry Travi must have shown this to prove he was a widower very strange.
Was he the informant on the registration ?
He may or may not have been asked to produce a death certificate when giving notice to marry as a widower (he would be now). But if you obtained your certificate from GRO ( who only have copied information) it is possible that the actual register entry held by the local registration office has the name correctly recorded, and therefore any certificate obtained from there would also be correct. It could be that there was a mistranscription in the quarterly returns or at the GRO end.
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I have been in touch with Essex Records office and they cannot open the Asylum records and advised me to write to Hospital Records at Basildon , l have done this twice and put in SAE but no reply when l did phone they said because of covid they are very busy and will get to the letter eventually that was in Feb so not holding out a lot of hope but will see what the death sert has to say and maybe take it from there. It does seem strange that we will be looking forward to going to Dorothy's grave or resting place but once again it closure for my cousin and l also hope that the family l think is Dorothy's is correct and maybe Irene will meet someone who knew her mother. I also realise how wicked her stepmother was for telling her that her mother was dead when she was about 8/9 but as a child myself l did not like the woman i am 6 years older than Irene. Fingers crossed all will be well in the end.
Where are the records held is it at Essex Records office or is it at Hospital Records, Basildon? If the records are held by Essex Records office the apply to them under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 as amended and ask the they communicate the information to you.
They may try to claim they need permission from the Hospital Records, Basildon, but that is rubbish if the records are held at the Essex Records office as they are the holder of the records.
They may try to claim the records are exempt under section 40 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 as amended but that is also rubbish as you are asking for records of a deceased person and the Data Protection Act 1998 (the Act the Freedom of Information Act 2000 relies on to provide certain data protection exemptions does not apply to deceased people).
If Hospital Records, Basildon hold the records then you will have to use them to provide the information and they may take longer but there are statutory limits on how long you have to wait for a reply, and for them to provide the information you require.
Cheers
Guy
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Annie65115
l think she does realise she was not to blame since my sister and l have been seeing her again as she had nobody to talk to that actually knew about her mum but she is pleased we have found her death cert and feeling better already.
thank you for your thoughts .
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Anthony MMM
He was not the informant her brother was who was also the informant on their mothers death cert in 1977 also the same addresses , this was the address l had written to hopeing for information but at least l now know it was the right address and family .
thankyou
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Guy,
Essex Records office told us Basildon had them may try to see where Severalls are kept.
Thankyou