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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: jnomad on Tuesday 31 August 21 22:46 BST (UK)
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I would like to find out about the family he came from. I imagine he was a younger son of a farmer, and because the family farm wasn't for him he made his living in the town (at one point as a sewed muslin agent, later as a commission agent). But which family and where? There seem to have been McDowells all around Antrim. I hoped finding the in-laws of Jane McDowell, who died in Antrim in 1871, would be an indirect way to get at his family; I hoped she would turn out to be his sister-in-law. But a very informative thread about her (thanks again, gaffy) has I think ruled that out. So what about him? Church records might help, but where and which denomination? For what it's worth, his children were Methodist. His wife was Elizabeth (died 1884), who I believe was a daughter of Henry McLorinan, a farmer, who died at Castle Street Antrim in 1875, in the presence of someone who was almost certainly this John McDowell, living on High Street. So perhaps they married in Antrim town, but again which denomination? Does anyone know anything about any of this?
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Is this the family tree from Family Search?
https://www.familysearch.org/search/linker?ark=/ark:/61903/1:1:FTW5-Q3X&id=GCGJ-PPQ&hinting=/tree/person/details/
If you are reasonably sure of the these names (for the children) have you looked at a way of finding the parents of john by looking at the traditional Irish naming patterns
A traditional naming pattern was often used by Irish parents until the later 19th century:
First son usually named for the father's father
Second son usually named for the mother's father
Third son usually named for the father
Fourth son usually named for the father's eldest brother
Fifth son usually named for the mother's eldest brother
First daughter usually named for the mother's mother
Second daughter usually named for the father's mother
Third daughter usually named for the mother
Fourth daughter usually named for the mother's eldest sister
Fifth daughter usually named for the father's eldest sister.
The Irish did not usually adopt this practice as closely as the Scots but it may give some clues.....you can see the McLorinan names on this list.
Unless you know from the side of the family I think a name for John's father could be Thomas and possibly the Parker may be his father's mother's maiden name or his mother's maiden name...or it could be neither but the the name of a well regarded clergy man (as one of my ancestors second name was) or, or......
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I would like to find out about the family he came from. I imagine he was a younger son of a farmer, and because the family farm wasn't for him he made his living in the town (at one point as a sewed muslin agent, later as a commission agent). But which family and where? There seem to have been McDowells all around Antrim. ...
What basis is there for thinking he was "a younger son of a farmer"? Family stories or other sources?
In Ulster it was NOT always the eldest son who inherited a family farm. Often during the 1800s the elder sons left home looking for work and it might be the youngest, or one of the younger ones, who stayed at home.
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Have a look on church records
http://www.irishgenealogy.ie
a John McDowell died in 1866 at newphew house 138 Corporation street Antrim aged 63
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a John McDowell died in 1866 at newphew house 138 Corporation street Antrim aged 63
This is him (and transcribed as MDOWELL).
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1886/06235/4784715.pdf
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Thank you, all.
Yes, shanreagh, that's the family. (There are more sources on ancestry.com.) And yes, kiltaglassan, that death record is his. (There is also a death notice in the Belfast News-Letter, which led to finding his grave; thanks, Elwyn Soutter.) I can't find your 1866 death, rathmore; and anyway, how would it help? Clearly a different John McDowell.
The naming pattern is interesting. I'm pretty sure of those children. The birth dates for the sons are extrapolated from their declared ages at the 1901 and 1911 censuses; for the daughters from death dates and ages given on John's gravestone. For what it's worth, the second known son, Henry McLorinan McDowell, was named for his mother's father, as per the pattern. But it was Henry McLorinan McD's first known son, Samuel McMillan McDowell, who was named for his mother's father; second son, John, perhaps for his father's father; and then third son, another Henry McLorinan, for his father. So first and second in the pattern are flipped.
I had seen something like that pattern on irelandxo.com, and wondered about Thomas as the name of John's father, but haven't come up with a suitable candidate.
Younger son was just an ignorant guess, aghadowey; it's interesting that it could just as well be elder sons who made their living in the town. What I suppose goes on being likely is that John's parents were rural, though no doubt they may have already been townspeople. All I really meant is that the range of possible locations is quite extensive.
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There is also a death notice in the Belfast News-Letter, which led to finding his grave
Also notices in the Belfast Telegraph, Northern Whig, Ballymena Advertiser
The Whig, 11 Dec 1886, report on the Antrim and Glenavy methodist circuit, says something about them sending a letter of sympathy to the family of the late Mr. John M'Dowell, Antrim, who had been for many years member of that Board.
Also mentions a T. M'Dowell as a circuit steward.
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Is this the family tree from Family Search?
https://www.familysearch.org/search/linker?ark=/ark:/61903/1:1:FTW5-Q3X&id=GCGJ-PPQ&hinting=/tree/person/details/
No daughter Lizzie/Eliza/Elizabeth on there. Nor on ancestry trees?
Marriage of Lizzie M'Dowell to Joseph Stewart, 11 Nov 1874, Methodist Chapel, Antrim
Father John M'Dowell, Manufacturing Agent
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1874/11249/8125564.pdf
Among others, birth of daughter Elizabeth McDowell Stewart in High Street, Antrim, 1877. Informant is John McDowell, Occupier
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03026/2108699.pdf
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Thank you, jonw. Lizzie is new to me, and she certainly looks like another daughter.
T. M'Dowell may be John's son Thomas Parker McDowell.
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That Lizzie's father is the John McDowell I'm interested in is confirmed by the fact that the notice of the marriage in the Belfast Newsletter says that the officiating minister, William M'Lorinan, is an uncle of the bride. Her mother was born Elizabeth McLorinan. I didn't know she had a brother who was a Methodist minister.
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Hi
What a stroke of luck, well found. One thing often leads to another!
I think there may be some newspaper obits much later of John junior. But his father is still proving frustrating!
John
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Slip of the mind or keyboard: the officiating minister was Thomas McLorinan, not William.
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The Methodist Historical Society in Belfast has Thomas McLorinan listed as a Minister. If you e-mail their historian he should be able to give you a bit of background on his career and his family:
https://methodisthistoryireland.org/people/ministers/#1506674992103-e211f38a-019f
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Thanks, Elwyn. I think a lot about his family has become fairly clear, thanks to jonw, on the more recent thread about the McLorinan family burying-ground. We knew from the Belfast Newsletter notice of the marriage of Lizzie McDowell that he was her uncle. Lizzie was a daughter of John McDowell, who died in Antrim in 1886 (you found his grave!). So Thomas was a brother of John's wife Elizabeth née McLorinan, a daughter of Henry McLorinan, who died in the presence of John McDowell in 1875. And jonw found a text that shows that Thomas McLorinan's mother, so Henry McLorinan's wife, was born Martha Mackey.
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John McDowell's sons as so far known:
Thomas Parker McD, born c. 1847
Henry McLorinan McD, born c. 1848
John McD Junior, born c. 1858
In Reply #1, shanreagh suggested trying to exploit a naming pattern to find John's father's name. But shanreagh's pattern seems to be Scottish rather than Irish? Anyway, there's a different naming pattern given on irelandxo.com:
First son named after father's father
Second son named after mother's father
Third son named after father
Fourth son named after father's eldest brother
And so on.
John's son Henry McLorinan McD flipped first and second in that pattern, as I pointed out in Reply #5; his first son (Samuel McMillan McD) was named after the mother's father, and second son (John McD) after the father's father. So the pattern, so modified, might serve as a template for understanding the naming of John's sons.
Henry's third son, another Henry McLorinan McD, was named after his father. Henry's fourth son, Thomas, can be named after his father's eldest brother Thomas Parker McD (no point in preserving the middle name). Fifth son is Alexander: perhaps named after his father's half-brother Alexander Mackey Parker, in a variation from the pattern. Sixth son William, named after ?
John's first son Thomas Parker McD, named after his mother's first husband, is outside the pattern. Henry McLorinan McD, named after his mother's father, is first in the pattern, according to the variation we find in Henry's sons. But the only so far known other son, John Junior, is named as if third in the pattern, after his father.
There is room between Henry McLorinan McD, c. 1848, or better between the two daughters born soon after Henry, and John Junior born c. 1858 for a so far unknown other son, who may have been named, as if second in the pattern according to the family variation as seen in Henry's sons, after John's father.
Could it be a William? Henry's sixth son William could then have been named after the eldest of his father's brothers whose name hadn't already been used.
Sorry this is so complicated. I would be grateful for any comments.
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Not all families followed any naming pattern so for those that did it's only useful in hindsight. Even in those families the followed 'tradition' all sorts of events could throw a spanner in the works.
For example, death, or near death, of a relative might move their name up the 'list.' Possible inheritance (elderly, ill or wealthy relative) can also bring changes.
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Thanks, aghadowey.
But I wasn't suggesting the naming pattern provides an ironclad proof that John's father was called William. I noted variations in the pattern even in this family, and even in addition to the flipping of the more usual order of first and second that we see in Henry's sons: John's eldest son seems to be outside the pattern altogether, and Henry's fifth son Alexander is only marginally in it, not named after a son of John if he is named after Henry's half-brother. I meant to be constructing something in the spirit of shanreagh's suggestion, not at that point equipped with the explanation for the name of Thomas Parker McDowell that we now have, that John's father's name might be Thomas. That John's father's name may have been William is clearly no more than a possible clue in the absence of any hard documentation. Surely you aren't suggesting that the naming patterns shouldn't be used, with discretion, in looking for clues to answers for this kind of question.
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As a McDowell whose Ancestry is in this period and general area but more in Connor Parish than Antrim its probably worth pointing out that John is the most common male name used and as they to one degree or another adhered to the naming tradition that goes down the generations which results in multiple John McDowells in the same area, of similar age, who were all named after the same grandfather. I've spent a lot of time trying to sort out the various John McDowells in Crumkill, Slaght, Kells, etc., made a number of mistakes and still not sure if I've got it right.
As an example - and this may or maybe relevant to this case, I have an Ellen McDowell from Lisnevanagh who married a William Parker from Ballymacvea in 1852 at Connor Presbyterian. Ellen's father and grandfather were both John McDowell.
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Greetings, fellow McDowell!
I don't think my John McDowell is either the father or the grandfather of Ellen. I think I know his descendants at least for a couple of generations. My problem is that I don't know his parents, or even where he was born. I have a distant DNA match that suggests Islandmagee: the matching person's tree goes back to David McDowell, labourer of Carnspindle, born 1795. But so far I haven't been able to work out a connection to my John McDowell.
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As an example - and this may or maybe relevant to this case, I have an Ellen McDowell from Lisnevanagh who married a William Parker from Ballymacvea in 1852 at Connor Presbyterian.
Here's the link for others-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1852/09420/5412465.pdf
Ballymuckvea townland
https://www.townlands.ie/antrim/antrim-lower/connor/kells/ballymuckvea/
Lisnevanagh townland
https://www.townlands.ie/antrim/toome-upper/grange-of-shilvodan/shilvodan/lisnevanagh/
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See Reply #7 on the topic William McDowell c. 1826-1887 shoemaker in Belfast. There is a DNA match between great-great-grandchildren of William and John. And a nephew-in-law of John, nephew of his wife Elizabeth McLorinan, wrote that before John became an agent in Antrim for a Belfast sewed muslin concern, he was, like William, a shoemaker.
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A possible clue, though I don't know how to exploit it.
He was buried in the Friends Burial Ground at Moylena, though he wasn't a Quaker (he was a prominent Methodist). The sign over the gate at the burial ground reads: 1701: Moylinny Quaker's Cemetery, Burial Place to the Reford Family. The Reford family had been Quakers, but I'm told that by the late 1700s to early 1800s they were Presbyterian. Why was John McDowell entitled to burial there? A possible answer is that he had a Reford ancestor. Was his mother a Reford?
Unfortunately a McDowell-Reford marriage at a date that might fit John's parents, and a baptism for him, would fall in one of the gaps that PRONI notes in the records of Antrim First Presbyterian (Millrow).
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This John McDowell died at his residence, 45 High Street, Antrim. The Tithe Applotment Book for Antrim parish, dated 1833, has a John McDowell at Main Street (which I think became High Street). Same house? Could a 16-year-old be a householder, liable for tithes? I'm hoping the John McDowell in the Tithe Applotment book is his father.