RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: elmer64 on Tuesday 17 August 21 19:56 BST (UK)
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Hello everyone.
Can someone help me to find a missing generation of the ‘Battling Kearneys’?
This may be a total ‘red-herring’ driven by the family desire to have once been ‘rich & famous’. On the other hand, there may also be a modicum of truth to it.
Here’s what we know:-
Philip Kearney (1704-1775) and Isabella Hooper (1720-?) had at least one son,
Michael Kearny, who married Elizabeth "Madam Scribblerus" Lawrence: together, they had at least 7 sons
John Kearny (1775 – 1828)
Phillip Kearny (1777 – 1853)
James Kearny (1778 – 1811)
Robert Kearny (1779 – 1853)
William Kearny (1785 – 1788) & Francis Kearny (1785 – 1837) - Twins
Lawrence Kearny (1789 – 1868) aka “Commodore Lawrence Kearney”
Squeeze into the Tardis and skip forward a generation.
A John Martin married a Mary Kearney (? sister Jane Kearney) on 3/3/1851 in Norfolk, Virginia.
On 26/11/1852 Elzabeth Ellen Martin (daughter of John Martin & Mary Kearney) was baptised by Fr Matthew O’Keefe in the (now) Church of St Mary of the Immaculate Conception (then known simply as St Patrick’s parish). The sponsors were Jane Kearney and Henry Dalton. It was the height of the yellow-fever epidemic in Norfolk VA. The Perth Amboy Kearneys had significant property and strong naval & military ties to Norfolk Virginia.
Let’s jump on the “Tardis” again and travel to May 9th 1876 when Elizabeth Ellen Martin had a son, Charles O’Neill, with Patrick O’Neill in Belfast, Northern Ireland. They went on to have at least another 6 children together, two of whom were infant deaths. Their last child, Stanislaus, was born on February 24th 1891 and Elizabeth Ellen died a fortnight later (Stanislaus survived a further four and a half months). Patrick remarried with a Sarah Lyttle on August 12th 1900 and they went on to have at least a further 5 children.
Family rumour has it that John Martin (Elizabeth Ellen’s apparent father) was a famous US navy captain connected with the US ship “Pensacola”. There were always stories and songs of the “good old times” in Virginia and South Carolina.
The US Navy suggest that Elizabeth Ellen Martin was a granddaughter of Commodore Lawrence Kearney. Given the dates of birth of his only known two sons, that seems improbable.
Who were Elizabeth Ellen Martin’s parents and grandparents?
When and how did she get from Norfolk VA to Northern Ireland?
What happened to her parents?
Any helpful ideas fellow RootsChatters?
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There was at least one child born before Charles-
Catherine O'Neill (12 Nov.1874 at 57 Hanna St.-10 Aug.1875)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1874/03129/2147345.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1875/020616/7233342.pdf
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I've found 10 children of Patrick O'Neill & Elizabeth Martin born Belfast between 1874-1891.
I've found several other couples with the same names in various parts of the U.S. Why do you think the Belfast ones are connected to the Kearneys?
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Hi Aghadowey,
There is a copy of Elizabeth Ellen's baptism certificate in our family archives, plus some notes about Father Matthew O'Keefe's work administering to the ill & dying in Norfolk.
These, together with the family oral histories about Virginia, and Patrick O'Neill having followed and wooed Elizabeth Ellen Martin after seeing her pass in a carriage, all do tie firmly to the Norfolk VA side.
What's missing is the clear identity of Elizabeth Ellen's Kearney parents (there is a family rumour that there were some Kearney mulatto children with plantation slaves; Fr O'Keefe was famous for de-segregating his church, and having it burnt down as a result. The Kearney and Martin families are on record as some of the major donators to the rebuilding fund.
The Norfolk VA connection is certain.
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One thing I noticed was that Elizabeth O'Neill doesn't ever seem to have a middle name in Belfast records.
Do the names of her children give any clues? I suspect both Catherines were named after the Catherine O'Neill who was informant at Elizabeth's birth (possibly Patrick O'Neill's mother).
I haven't found a marriage for Patrick & Elizabeth in Ireland- have you search for it in U.S.?
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Deleted, realise you had already answered that question.
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Hi again Aghadowey,
First, well spotted for Catherine 1874, thank you! It is complicated when some are registered as Antrim, others as Belfast.
I now have 8 children:-
1874 Catherine (your discovery)
1876 Charles 1876
1877 Elizabeth
a potential gap for a couple of births
1880 Annie
a potential gap for another birth
1882 Catherine
a potential gap for another birth
1884 John
a potential gap for a couple of births
1887 Sarah
a potential gap for a couple of births
1891 Stanislaus
You have found two more?
In the 1911 census Patrick only referred to his children with Sarah Lyttle (5 born, 3 living).
Lennon Wylie show a Catherine O'Neill (widow) at 57 New Dock Street in 1880 & 1890; the street did not seem to exist in 1868.
Patrick O'Neill's second marriage (to Sarah Lyttle) 12/8/1900 records his father as Charles O'Neill (deceased). We have not yet found a parental Charles+Catherine connection. There seems to be a Bernard somewhere in the mix. However you very rightly suggest Catherine as the potential mother-in-law to Elizabeth Ellen.
We also find no trace of Patrick & Elizabeth's marriage in Ireland. Family tales say Patrick saw her with her family in a carriage on a dockside, then followed on foot for days until he could meet her (it was never clear where that may have happened). There is also a 'yarn' about her dressing as a man to board ship and run away with him. That all sounds far too dramatic to be true; who knows? He has never been recorded as a sailor.
So far, with only rudimentary skills, I have looked, but not found their marriage in the US. Norfolk was chaos at that time due to the epidemic and records were not consistently maintained (they're also very difficult to access and to read). In all events, the Kearneys had properties everywhere, and a marriage may have occurred well outside Norfolk. Wise people tried to flee the yellow-fever epidemic, many were repulsed elsewhere, but the very wealthy probably got by. They still do!
Many, many thanks for your time, thought, and suggestions.
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It does seem odd to me that a woman from a wealthy family could only sign with her mark.
(Although I have only looked at the two certs for Catherine 1874).
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Excellent point mckha489.
On the other hand, the registers were usually transcribed from local entries. Virtually every recorded birth shows "name, her/his mark x". There was no mechanism to duplicate signatures.
If you compare literacy (as recorded on the census returns) with later birth registrations, all that I have seen for previously declared literate persons show the same... "her/his mark x".
My great grandmother and her husband were literate and fluent in English and Irish (they also spoke and wrote - badly- in French and Italian). Their childrens' births are also recorded with an "x" signature.
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As a general point regarding ancestors literacy:-
Where there exist images of church records, particularly marriages, the parties generally (with some exceptions) signed the register themselves. These records may help to assess the individuals literacy.
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As I mentioned earlier, I found 11 children of Patrick O'Neill & Elizabeth Martin (all registered in Belfast district)- the ones missing from your list are (another) Catherine, Patrick & Christina. I didn't check each one for deaths so more could have died in infancy or as children. Here's the complete list so far-
1. Catherine (12 Nov.1874 at 57 Hanna St.-10 Aug.1875)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1874/03129/2147345.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1875/020616/7233342.pdf
2. Charles (9 May 1876 Belfast-aft.1891)
3. Elizabeth (19 Dec.1877 at New Andrew St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/02990/2095780.pdf (informant- Catherine O’Neill)
4. Annie (5 June 1880 at 20 Andrew St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1880/02876/2053891.pdf
5. Catherine (27 Aug.1882 at Andrew St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1882/02774/2018378.pdf
6. John (6 Apr.1884 at 29 Andrew St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1884/02694/1992136.pdf
7. Patrick (2 Feb.1886 at 47 New Dock St.-6 Sept.1886 at 43 New Dock St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02617/1966030.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1886/06243/4787409.pdf
8. Sarah (19 May 1887 at 57 New Dock St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1887/02563/1947867.pdf
9. Christina (27 Dec.1888 at 57 New Dock St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/cert_amends/cert_1889/1923116a.pdf
10. Stanislaus Patrick (24 Feb.1891 at 57 New Dock St.-1891)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1891/02402/1895770.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1891/06065/4729219.pdf
I also noticed that Elizabeth signed by her mark on the registrations which points to possible illiteracy or at least limited education. If you are judging that by the fact that most others on the page also did so you also need to look at occupations listed. Since most were labourers, etc. it's not at all surprising to find few were able to sign their name. In a similar period (and even at the start of registration of births & deaths in 1864) for my own rural area most labourers and working class people signed their own names.
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Let me introduce you to Bernard O'Neill :)
Bernard O’Neill (c1850-bef.1907) m.(1875 St. Patrick’s) Isabella “Bella” McGurk (c1857-1907 Belfast)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1875/11217/8111767.pdf (groom- 57 Dock St., father Charles O’Neill dead)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05516/4545958.pdf (from 2 California St., widow of Bernard O’Neill engine driver, informant- son Charles)
1. Charles O’Neill (19 Jan.1877 at 18 New St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03026/2108948.pdf (father Barrnet O’Neill)
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633201#page/26/mode/1up (New St., Ann O’Neill one of the spons.)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Duncairn_Ward/Copperfield_Street/957499/
1907- 48 York Rd.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Duncairn/York_Road/143158/ (with wife & children)
2. Isabella O’Neill (12 Aug.1879 at 3 Orchard St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02910/2066213.pdf
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633201#page/44/mode/1up
More to add to this but found the baptisms for the children Charles & Isabella when searching baptism register for St. Joseph's for children of Patrick O'Neill & Elizabeth Martin. Only found 3 baptisms for their children so others probably baptised at another church-
Baptisms St. Joseph’s, Belfast-
Charles Joseph O’Neill (mother Lizzie Martin)- see note re: marriage on right side of page
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633201#page/22/mode/1up
Elizabeth O’Neill
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633201#page/34/mode/1up (spons. Catherine O’Neill)
Ann O’Neill
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633201#page/52/mode/1up
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Had a look at more directories for Bernard O'Neill & family.
Possible death for Bernard which I could find in Irish Genealogy database either by name search or page search-
? Bernard O’Neill age 39 died 21 Apr.1892 Belfast dist. (from GRONI’s database)
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/opqcomplete1880.htm (not there 1890 or 1894)
ORCHARD STREET Canning Street to Bentinck Street- 3. O'Neill, Bern., engine driver
Couldn’t find Bernard in 1890 directory
Daughter Isabella born 1879 at 3 Orchard St. Although it nearby I checked & there doesn't seem ro be a connection to Bernard-
1907 directory- Constantine O’Neill at 3 California St. (checked marriage record but his father not Bernard)
Couldn't find Bernard's wife/widow in 1901 census. There is this Isabella O'Neill-
JENNYMOUNT STREET Off North Derby Street 20. O'Neill, Isabella
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/hijkcomplete1894.htm
1890 (off York Rd.)- not at this address
Not in Valuations 1882-1896
Note: searched for that address after finding this death-
Annie c1883-1893 brother Charles (20 Jennymount St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1893/05988/4703363.pdf
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Many thanks to Aghadowey for the incredibly effective & diligent researches.
Wow!!
We suspect that you have certain attributes which we lack:-
• a lightening fast broadband connection
• basic human intelligence
• perhaps a very smart internet trawling program?
It is indeed surprising to note that Elizabeth Ellen Martin made “her mark X” for the registrations of her first child’s (Catherine 1874-75) birth and death (uniquely those 2 events).
Later, she signed (although many registrations were done by a Mary McLaughlin of 17 New Dock Street – apparently a local midwife; we found her on over 20 birth registrations in the area).
Patrick O’Neill, the labourer, was literate (census returns, marriage record with Sarah Lyttle & registration of Stanislaus’ death). He was reputedly harshly domineering and said to have posted written ‘rules of behaviour’ for his family (a trend his own son, John, later continued with Victorian rigour).
Interesting as all that may be, it does not explain the enigma of Elizabeth Ellen Martin (nee Kearney or Kearny or Carney etc) from Norfolk VA?. Perhaps it was not her at all? The family may have built a myth. Back in 1891, they did not have internet to help construct a story, just scraps of mouse-chewed paper!
We’ve been through the Kearney museum in Perth Amboy (Paul Wong, curator), the church in Norfolk VA and the US Navy archives. Lot’s of great ‘possible stories’, rather a shortage of facts.
Did we shout "Don't give up the ship" then sink with it, or keep firing until the water reached the gunwales, did we charge with Napoleon in France and Italy, did we massacre our comrades in the civil war, or just murder Amer-Indians? We’ll probably never know the truth… it would still be nice to show that we really do own 25% of the New York Stock Exchange thanks to Elizabeth Ellen. There’s a 10% reward to the first RootsChatter who can show that (payable in arrears after the expiry of the statute of limitations)!
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There seem to be two of you researching this family- hopefully you've compared notes and are sharing your research in order to solve these mysteries.
We suspect that you have certain attributes which we lack:- ...
You forgot decades of researching ;D
As I said earlier, nowhere have I found Elizabeth (Martin) O'Neill using the middle name of Ellen, or indeed any other middle name. The only variation was just 1, I think, registration showing her as Lizzie.
Unfortunately we are still missing vital evidence-
1) marriage certificate of Patrick O'Neill & Elizabeth Martin- in U.S. or Ireland? Irish vital records have been searched without a result but perhaps priest neglected to send the record to GRO and it might appear in church register?
2) record of travel from U.S. to Ireland or even U.K. Unfortunately too early for online passenger manifests into U.K.
Going back to U.S. records- do you have Elizabeth Ellen Martin with parents in 1871 census?
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just stumbled on this thread, and fascinating it is too -- a few dubious assertions notwithstanding -- e.g. references to Patrick O'Neill's ''harsh discipline'' and his son John carrying on that with ''Victorian rigour'' -- I was left wondering as to the sources for these statements. That aside, the quality of the research is amazing, and all credit to those who have engaged in it.
My own research has come up with broadly similar results, though there are divergences. Still, that's in the nature of research, I think? For what it's worth it is alleged that when Elizabeth Martin came to Belfast she stayed with relatives on the Ormeau Road. At that stage she'd have been around 11 years old, and apparently was sent to Ireland to avoid the ravages of the American Civil War of 1861-1865. Again, one finds oneself in the minefield of ''family lore.''