RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: hols92 on Sunday 15 August 21 19:12 BST (UK)
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Hi!
I am trying desperately to place my grandfather, John O'Donnell on paper in the Watford Area in Hertfordshire around 1949.
I know he was there as that was when my father was born.
I have him previously tracked until 1926 in the St Pancras Area in London with siblings also local.
I can then place him again in the late 1970's in Luton, Bedfordshire living with his brother 'Patrick' until he dies in 1980.
The same brother I can find in the UK 1939 register literally a few roads away from where I grew up and understand that my grandfather lived near by in and around 1949 but have no more info than that and cannot find him anywhere in the whole country in the 1939 census let alone Watford.
I cannot seem to account for my grandfather at all or at any point during the 'missing' 50 odd years and I would be so so grateful and appreciative of anyone being able to help me place him at any time through this period.
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If he signed up early, he won't be on the 1939 National Register - members of the Armed Forces weren't on there.
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Thanks K!
Do you meet for WW2? As I don't believe he was signed up to fight in WW2, he was a soldier in WW1.
Would there be another reason, he's not on there?
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Plenty of men served in both World Wars.
No reason why he should be near "Patrick" in 1939 just because he joined hin in late 1970's.
Did you track patrick through (say) electoral rolls to see where & with whom he resided?
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Do you have a date of birth/birth certificate for him for him? Did he have a middle name? Who did he say his father was when he married your grandmother? He needn't have been in the area when your father was born only his mother needed to be!!
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You didn't specify when he was born :D
The 1939 National Register simply wouldn't show members of the Armed Forces at that time the Register was compiled in 1939.
Other reasons?
Maybe he wasn't in England/Wales at the time?
If he wasn't on the Register, he wouldn't have had an ID Card or Ration Book.
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Yes! Again I can't place Patrick either after 1939 until the late 1970's in Luton.
It isn't to say he was residing near or with Patrick, its just he has previously and does in later life so that was one of the avenues I was going down and plus the address that Patrick is living in with Wife Olive in the 1939 census is precisely in the area that I am looking to track down my grandfather in over the following 10 years.
I will defo check out the ww2 records though and see if he pops up.
Sorry of course, his DOB is 31st of May 1902
I don't have his birth certificate but like I say, I do have his Death cert.
This is the problem, my grandfather didn't marry my grandmother. but I do know that he was around at the time of the birth as she spoke of him coming round to see my father and bought with him, items from the black market.
Thanks so much for your interest and input thus far, if you need any more info I will give it gladly to help you help me !!
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Have you looked at passenger lists? Maybe he lived/worked abroad for a while?
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No I haven't. I can't access them sadly as I do not have the funds to upgrade my subscritpion on ancestry etc.
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Have to checked to see if your local library is currently offering from-home access?
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Remember - the 1939 National Register you can see on Ancestry and FindMyPast only covers England & Wales.
The Register for Scotland, Northern Ireland, Isle of Man etc. has to be accessed separately, where it is available.
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Did brother Patrick register his death? If so, some hope the birth date was correct...
If he did register his death, is this how you know he was a brother to John as it showed on John's death reg this way?
From the 1939 register, what was the birth date showing for Patrick O'Donnell?
Monica
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John O'Donnell did serve in the Army - he enlisted 28/6/1919 and served in Egypt/Sudan from 15/11/1919 until 10/5/1922. Royal Munster Fusiliers. So may well have re-enlisted at start of war hence missing from 1939 register.
Annette
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Maybe as a grandchild, hols92 could apply for his army record?
I agree with Monica, try following Patrick.
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Other reasons?
Maybe he wasn't in England/Wales at the time?
Was his family Irish? He might have gone to Ireland.
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Hi Monica, Annette and Maiden Stone!
Thank you all so much!
Yes brother Patrick registered his death.
His birthday is on the death cert but also his army record backs this up :)
Yes I know Patrick is his brother from the death cert but also this corresponds with the Irish census from 1911.
They also lived together in Rowton House in St Pancras, London together in the 1920s from 1923 to 1926/7
I can find Patrick in Watford, Herts with wife Olive in the 1939 census right where my Grandfather was reported to be when meeting my Grandmother and my father was born 10 years later.
Patrick and Olive also married in Watford the same year that my father was born in 1949.
Interestingly the date of birth of Patrick in the 1939 census is the wrong year.
He was born 10 August 1900 but on the 1939 census he is listed as 10 August 1902 which of course was the year my grandfather was born not Patrick.
I have birth registrations and baptismal records for all of my grandfathers siblings to back up these dates.
Can anyone point me in the right direction of looking for WW2 records of soldiers as I am finding these much harder to find online unlike WW1?
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WW2 records are not online. Next of kin or direct descendants can apply for them [it costs and takes a while] see this thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=595286.msg4455042#msg4455042
which has a link to the page for applications.
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Thanks so much Josey!
I will have a look into that. Although I feel pretty certain he didn't rejoin. He would have been 37 years old in 1939 and also he had quite the record for going AWOL and trying to leave the army in WW1 according to his papers.
So I just don't get the feeling that he would have then signed up to fight in WW2.
Would his record be blocked for any reason? Why would this be and how would I go about unblocking it potentially.
Do you also have any idea of accessing electoral rolls for after 1939 as I have found they are fairly scarce in the areas I am researching ie, Watford, Hertfordshire and St Pancras, London in the 1940's, 1950s and 1960s???
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Other reasons?
Maybe he wasn't in England/Wales at the time?
Was his family Irish? He might have gone to Ireland.
Yes Maiden Stone, his family and himself are from Carrick on Suir, County Tipperary, Ireland but they all came over to the UK or unfortunately passed in Carrick so I would be surprised if he went back there when all his remaining siblings and father were in the UK you know?
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All electoral rolls are archived & publicly available, often at libraries; obviously not all digitised however. You have to search undigitised ones by address as well - as you probably know; the digitised ones are searched by OCR bots on genealogy websites. What about telephone directories - there are some on ancestry. They often only have initials though so very difficult to confirm an entry.
Are you talking about his entry on 1939 register being blocked, or his army one? As far as I know only blocked entries on 1939 are of people born less than 100 years ago when the register was scanned.
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Have you viewed a copy of his death reg? If you have, what was his marital status? If he showed as married that could help with finding him with a family for the years you are looking to fill in.
Don't know if you have a subs to Ancestry and therefore able to view family trees?
There is this family tree (could well be yours ::)) www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/171178106/person/162222659643/facts
It shows John in 1978 on the Electoral Rolls at Icknield Way 77, Luton. The original images shows a Patrick/John/Olive M. at that address that year (Patrick married Olive you mentioned?).
1979 shows just a Patrick and John O'Donnell at that address. No Olive.
Monica
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Just adding this link to an old post of yours for background here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=835768.0
Monica
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If I have the right man - originally enlisted 28 Jun 1919 - then it looks like he re-enlisted into the Royal Artillery Heavy Anti-Aircraft, 205 Heavy Anti-Aircraft Battery (?), on 16 Apr 1942. Service number 11416849.
https://www.nam.ac.uk/soldiers-records/persons?ss=%7B%22q%22:%22john%20o%27donnell%22%7D
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If I have the right man - originally enlisted 28 Jun 1919 - then it looks like he re-enlisted into the Royal Artillery Heavy Anti-Aircraft, 205 Heavy Anti-Aircraft Battery (?), on 16 Apr 1942. Service number 11416849.
https://www.nam.ac.uk/soldiers-records/persons?ss=%7B%22q%22:%22john%20o%27donnell%22%7D
Blimey thank you so so much Jomot!!
I have been wondering what this meant and just assumed that it was a document reference but now I see it it seems so obvious!!
Thank you this is a huge breakthrough!
How can I access this record of his time in WW2??!!!
Thanks Monica, that is exactly my grandfather in luton that you have found, olive.. Patricks wife died in 1978 hence her absence in 1979.
Yes Josey I was referring to a blocked record on the 1939 register, it shouldn't be given his age etc but you never know a mistake?
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How can I access this record of his time in WW2??!!!
See my reply #16.