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General => The Stay Safe Board => Topic started by: andrewalston on Tuesday 10 August 21 10:45 BST (UK)
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A good explanation of typical reasoning used by those avoiding vaccination on More of Less (the shorter, World Service, edition).
You can hear it at https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p09rkn2z
The argument goes that if (numbers made up just now!) there are two people in hospital who are not vaccinated, and three who are vaccinated, then vaccination must be 50% more dangerous.
However, if there are 10 people unvaccinated people in the population, and 100 vaccinated people, then the hospitalisation rate is 3% in the vaccinated population, and 20% in the refusers.
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A good explanation of typical reasoning used by those avoiding vaccination on More of Less (the shorter, World Service, edition).
You can hear it at https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p09rkn2z
The argument goes that if (numbers made up just now!) there are two people in hospital who are not vaccinated, and three who are vaccinated, then vaccination must be 50% more dangerous.
However, if there are 10 people unvaccinated people in the population, and 100 vaccinated people, then the hospitalisation rate is 3% in the vaccinated population, and 20% in the refusers.
UK Government deaths figures are regularly published (a few weeks behind) of those aged over 50 and those under 50 admitted to hospital who were vaccinated and unvaccinated.
To compare the two figures with each other, you would need exactly 50% vaccinated and 50% unvaccinated in the population, in those age groups.
Mark
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Well apparently, according to a friend, she said her son has read on FB that having the vaccine makes a certain part of the male anatomy shrink! ;D ;D
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Well apparently, according to a friend, she said her son has read on FB that having the vaccine makes a certain part of the male anatomy shrink! ;D ;D
Well, if it said that on FB it MUST be right. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Mazi has gone to find her magnifying glass to see if it’s true.
I am hiding ;D ;D ;D
Mike
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It all comes down to interpretation of the statistics. We all know that you can interpret them many different ways, hence the saying:
There are lies, damn lies and statistics.
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"More or Less" is an excellent programme. Of course, I would say that, wouldn't I, since it's on "mainstream" media" and I've probably been brainwashed since birth. My mother couldn't afford tinfoil to make me a hat. ;D
I've been looking at some anti-vaxxer misrepresentations of statistics. As a faithful listener to "More or Less" I understood that statistics in the tables didn't show what was claimed by the author. Some articles are from a UK-based website to which "Newsguard" has given a red "Proceed with caution" rating. Reading the full assessment of the website: "This website severely violates basic journalistic standards. .... A website that has repeatedly published false or misleading claims about COVID-19 pandemic and Covid-19 vaccines ..." It got a credibility score of 7.5 out of 100. A linked article on the same website tells me that a simple cure is in my kitchen cupboard. ???
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Some anti-vaxxers claim that the vaccine turns people into zombies!
Mimicing the script of the film "I Am Legend".
One of the screenwriters gas had to deny the rumour!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-58164833
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Well apparently, according to a friend, she said her son has read on FB that having the vaccine makes a certain part of the male anatomy shrink!
He read that wrong, it is the possible effect of having covid that can cause the problem.
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Well apparently, according to a friend, she said her son has read on FB that having the vaccine makes a certain part of the male anatomy shrink!
He read that wrong, it is the possible effect of having covid that can cause the problem.
That's interesting - so in fact an argument for having the vaccine.
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Could someone please explain to me how some anti-vaxxers can claim that ' all vaccinated people will be dead in three years'.
How can they possibly accept this when three years ago nobody had even heard of Covid let alone a vaccine for it.
Rishile
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Could someone please explain to me how some anti-vaxxers can claim that ' all vaccinated people will be dead in three years'.
How can they possibly accept this when three years ago nobody had even heard of Covid let alone a vaccine for it.
Rishile
Because they only believe conspiracy theories. All of the rest of the world is part of the conspiracy, proving to them that they are right.
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Had a posting in an IOM Facebook Group yesterday, wanting to know about problems and side effects of vaccinations.
She mentioned all the vaccines currently in use: Pfizer, AZ, Moderna, etc, etc.
Virtually every reply said "No problems with AZ".
Then I pointed out the in IOM we have only had Pfizer and AZ!
Asked if she was trolling - then thread got removed/deleted ;D ;D
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Could someone please explain to me how some anti-vaxxers can claim that ' all vaccinated people will be dead in three years'.
How can they possibly accept this when three years ago nobody had even heard of Covid let alone a vaccine for it.
Rishile
Because they only believe conspiracy theories. All of the rest of the world is part of the conspiracy, proving to them that they are right.
They mistrust "Big Pharma", governments, experts, scientists, "mainstream media". They hate, among others, Bill Gates and Dr. Anthony Fauci.
They don't believe proven facts or opinions from experts which don't fit their theories. They "prefer to do their own research" which seems to mean they pay attention only to sources which bolster their views.
2 explanations of conspiracy theories. The first was written pre-COVID.
https://www.wired.com/story/wired-guide-to-conspiracy-theories/
https://thebristolmag.co.uk/conspiracy-theories/
There is some deliberate dis-information about COVID vaccines.
Some people are genuinely suspicious of COVID vaccines. They need unbiased information from reliable sources but instead they are getting the opposite.
One well-known American anti-vaxxer couple have been anti conventional medicine for a long time. They promote alternative methods. (If I'd followed their advice I probably wouldn't be alive.) They donate money from their profits to other anti-vaxxers. They allied themselves with certain political groups, some of whom believe in conspiracy theories.
I've been called a "shill", suspected of being a government plant, accused of turning a blind eye to paedophilia ???, and received rude comments, all because I put my trust in proven facts, checked sources for reliability and explained what statistics, incorrectly interpreted by others, really meant. The worst insult, as far as I was concerned was that I didn't know how to research! Excuse me, I was trained how to research, I have certificates to prove it.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cezwr3d2085t/disinformation
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56536390
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"A linked article on the same website tells me that a simple cure is in my kitchen cupboard."
Maidenstone - that will be turmeric! ;D
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https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/screw-your-freedom-arnies-message-to-anti-vaxxers/vp-AANg2VQ
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Could someone please explain to me how some anti-vaxxers can claim that ' all vaccinated people will be dead in three years'.
How can they possibly accept this when three years ago nobody had even heard of Covid let alone a vaccine for it.
Rishile
Claimed in a video by a darling of conspiracy theorists in April 2021.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/michael-yeadon-vaccine-deaths/
Another alleged source was virologist & Nobel Prize Laureate Luc Montagnier, May 2021. This proved to be a hoax. However it had already been spread by a Canadian far-right website. The Canadian website is red-flagged by Media Bias Factcheck for pushing conspiracy theories, pseudo-science + failed fact checks.
A long list of COVIDn
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Put somebody in a uniform in front of a camera and people will trust what they're saying.
Thus if you put a neat haired, white coated, person in front of a camera to explain the truth, or untruth, viewers will think they're reputable doctors or scientists and tend to agree with them.
When the Covid virus started to appear in Europe and America a video appeared on Facebook. This video showed the front of a hospital, then the main doors were thrown open and a female in a blue uniform rushed out through the doors, arms held upward at an angle to make herself larger and her voice could be heard shouting "There's No Such thing as Covid".
The audience were expected to think she had been checking blood samples and had found no sign of a strange new virus.
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I HATE vaccinations, having had many daily over a long period of time when I had a blood clot and again daily during another time of serious illness
I don't think anyone 'likes' to be vaccinated for anything however we can ( I think) all acknowledge vaccines have made us as individuals and society safe or safer from many previous 'killer' diseases/viruses over the decades. ... such as the flu, TB etc
It is hard to remember the shock/fear we felt when 'invisible' covid hit compared to now where we are all far more aware. Also the speed in producing vaccines worried many certainly did me and brought to the for questions like 'how safe is it?'... 'what long term affects could it cause?'... 'why are the medical profession being given AZ and the public Pfizer?'
I refuse to look at social media and the fors/against as it breeds 'pack/mob mentality' ( same as I have not read the RC posts previously, so forgive me if I am repeating anything others have already said)
I don't like vaccines so I am someone who would/could avoid having it. I needed to get the correct, knowledgable and honest answers ( good or bad) before I made any decision and wasn't finding those answers in the reams and reams of Governments covid information, in fact if anything it made me doubt more.
In making a decision it is based on an individual and what they already think, so if you sourround yourself with others who are confirming 'what you already think' regardless of extremes one way or the other then you make your decision and our brains filter out the extremes to have it or not as humans do not like to be wrong or different.
I sort out and got answers from two or three professionals, also spoke to three friends of who I trust their judgement (one has chosen not to be vaccinated, other two have) and decided I should have the vaccine, for my own sake as well as the wider society however I know if I had read anti vaccine media I could easily have made a different decision despite KNOWING much of what is written is nonsense and scare mongering.
......and I could have easily changed my mind several times even after 'trying' to book as the website booking was unavailable*, then two days later it cut out halfway through filling information*, encouraged to try again when I told my friend*( why bother 'something is telling me this is not a good idea) but he actually took change and did it there and then, when I got to the centre I couldn't park*, then found the 'covid stewards' were less than friendly* and even sat in the chair answering questions she was just double checking the vaccine amount* ( what am I doing here!) while I was nervously chatting and suddenly she stopped and I was told...she needed to check with the doctor to return to tell me the Pfizer vaccine was not suitable for me* which was based on information I had said during my nervous chatter*, so that alone could have got me 'running for the hills' as it was not in questions I had been asked about... and told AZ would be a better option and wait for a phone call*, Thankfully the phone call was next day, the appointment two days later so less time to dwell, parking was a nightmare ( here we go again) and no clear signage but I fought through and found it eventually by asking people the staff were welcoming and professional, the only time in my life I didn't feel the injection ( she was VERY good) and I was lucky she did the 2nd jab and same again I felt nothing, although I did start to get anxious, feel hot and feel faint as waiting to go in was a long time( nurse asked me if I was OK she must have noticed the white face, handed me a water and showed me a chair to sit in which was set outside) after the 1st AZ I felt very tired for 10 days and could not sit or stand still afer 1pm or I simply fell asleep, the 2nd one no reactions at all.
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PS to reply #17. My keyboard was being naughty.
A handy summary of COVID-19 misinformation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_misinformation
BBC now employs a disinformation investigator.
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"Also the speed in producing vaccines worried many"
It's not as if these vaccines were developed totally from scratch, you know. Scientists have been working on mRNA vaccines for decades.
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"Also the speed in producing vaccines worried many"
It's not as if these vaccines were developed totally from scratch, you know. Scientists have been working on mRNA vaccines for decades.
Dismissing my concern ( and many others who had the same concerns) NOW is very easy however the public didn't know that at the start and at that time the public were not told that either.... so hindsight is brill!
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Reply #19 iluleah. Getting a vaccine was simple for me in Scotland. Received the blue envelope with appointment for 1st dose at the local mass vaccination centre. There were instructions on how to change appointment if time or venue was unsuitable. 2nd appointment letter arrived on the very day I expected it. 2nd envelope contained vouchers for free travel to & from the vaccination centre.
There were also "pop-up" vaccination centres in a few locations in the county in May for anyone who hadn't received their 1st dose when it had been due.
Young people have a different booking system.
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"Also the speed in producing vaccines worried many"
It's not as if these vaccines were developed totally from scratch, you know. Scientists have been working on mRNA vaccines for decades.
Dismissing my concern ( and many others who had the same concerns) NOW is very easy however the public didn't know that at the start and at that time the public were not told that either.... so hindsight is brill!
Thanks for the longer post iluleah. I will leave it at that. :)
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"A linked article on the same website tells me that a simple cure is in my kitchen cupboard."
Maidenstone - that will be turmeric! ;D
That's not in my cupboard.
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"Also the speed in producing vaccines worried many"
It's not as if these vaccines were developed totally from scratch, you know. Scientists have been working on mRNA vaccines for decades.
Dismissing my concern ( and many others who had the same concerns) NOW is very easy however the public didn't know that at the start and at that time the public were not told that either.... so hindsight is brill!
I think it was explained quite early on that one of the reasons it was available quickly was because so much money was thrown at it and also so many people volunteered for trials, that it was usually takes the time.
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The Disinformation Dozen
https://www.counterhate.com/disinformationdozen
Also on this website 2 reports under COVID tab:
The Anti-Vaxx Industry
The Anti-Vaxx Playbook
Added. Pandemic Profiteers under Home tab.
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This BBC link is on a UK Doctors Surgery website
BBC "New Zealand woman dies after receiving Pfizer vaccine"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58380867?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA
Seems to be already known about - Journal of Hematology & Oncology
Hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis after COVID-19 vaccination
https://jhoonline.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13045-021-01100-7
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Technically it is not wrong is it?
All those who receive a vaccine will die, just like all those who don't.
Regards
Chas
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All those who receive a vaccine will die, just like all those who don't.
Regards
Chas
It does not say that.
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All those who receive a vaccine will die, just like all those who don't.
Regards
Chas
It does not say that.
BushInn, it is patently obvious - everybody dies, vaccine or not. Unless you know different?
Regards
Chas
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Now Now, Chas...
"Technically, it is not wrong is it?"
Definitely gives the reader the impression that your follow up comment is referring to the content of the article/s posted.
When in reality there is no correlation there at all... If you check the articles
Bushlnn posted.
Doing that, the reader is then left with the impression that you were attempting to belittle the content of the posting...
and that's just not nice. Nor is it unbiased.
Think you should say sorry.
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Actually, this whole thread is not nice. Actually this whole thread is offensive , as are many of the posts on this board. If anyone wishes to partake in medical experimentation, because that is what these different vaccines are, medical trials. Then that is your prerogative but to insist that everyone else should... Well, all that's missing is your jackboots. Nuremberg anyone?
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(04)17619-8/fulltext
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Deplorable.
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Agree Erato, and a lock is coming no doubt.
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Elaborate, please?
Dissect my comment, word for word, what is in there that is 'deplorable'?
Then have a read of the tone of the provaxxer comments. I find that deplorable.
Goodnight.
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I'm afraid a very strong immune response arising naturally due to a virus and becoming apparent early last year is not a pleasant condition to live with either. Also when my immune system went on to be further challenged by insect bites in the garden last Summer it just continued to react for quite some months into this year.
GP Prescribed medication to calm the inflammation (part of the immune response) only appeared to start other reactions, Mark
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According to a protest group yesterday on the Isle of Man, Covid doesn't exist :o
https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/campaigners-gather-to-claim-there-is-no-virus/
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According to a protest group yesterday on the Isle of Man, Covid doesn't exist :o
https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/campaigners-gather-to-claim-there-is-no-virus/
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
- Albert Einstein
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This SARS-CoV-2 and some Influenza viruses are serious and I find some comments circulating don't seem to understand the problems mentioned in the Scientific Reports from various countries, Mark
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Provaxxer? You mean the rational people? What's wrong with their "tone?"
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Withdraw NHS cover for those who will not get the vaccine. Why should stupidity cost the country.
Malky
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Withdraw NHS cover for those who will not get the vaccine. Why should stupidity cost the country.
Malky
Where would you stop!
Prevent smokers getting cancer treatment?
How about drinkers, or perhaps people who play football, when I was last in hospital in an 8 bed ward 6 of the beds were taken by people who played football one by me and one empty.
Antivaccers pay into the NHS, they like every other person in the UK have a right to refuse any treatment they do not wish to have even treatments such as vaccines.
That is one of the benefits for living in a free country like the UK.
Cheers
Guy
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Withdraw NHS cover for those who will not get the vaccine. Why should stupidity cost the country.
Malky
Because that would be a slippery slope as almost everyone can be considered to take risks with their health. It's frustrating when people are unvaccinated and subsequently hospitalised but I know i couldn't just not treat them.
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Elaborate, please?
Dissect my comment, word for word, what is in there that is 'deplorable'?
Maybe the link you included in your reply #33?
The following statement was made on behalf of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Memorial Museum in July 2021.
"Instrumentalization of the tragedy of all people who, between 1933-45 suffered, were humiliated, tortured and murdered by the hateful totalitarian regime of Nazi Germany to argue against vaccination that saves human lives is a sad symptom of moral and intellectual decline."
A similar comment was made by a spokesperson of the museum in August 2019 as a response to an anti-vaccination rally targeted at Jewish-Americans. A public health emergency in New York City had been declared on account of a measles epidemic.
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Withdraw NHS cover for those who will not get the vaccine. Why should stupidity cost the country.
Malky
Because that would be a slippery slope as almost everyone can be considered to take risks with their health.
Injured skiers, sledgers and snowboarders fall into that category! (Sorry, I can never resist a pun. ;D)
Comedian Dr. Phil is currently on radio.
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Firstly, this link should allay any questions on the FACT that this IS a medical trial.
https://covid19vaccinetrial.co.uk
Secondly, the link I posted previously,
Very much relevant to medical trials being forced upon human subjects.
Here it is again.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(04)17619-8/fulltext
Is from THE LANCET.
Lastly, you attempt to tarnish the validity of these MEDICAL AUTHORITY links, with an unreferenced, anonymous quote from a museum spokesperson.
If anyone fails, or ignorantly refuses to see the correlation between history and today, then we are on the road to repeating it.
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Firstly, this link should allay any questions on the FACT that this IS a medical trial.
https://covid19vaccinetrial.co.uk
Trials continue as explained on the Oxford vaccine trial website in your link.
Research doesn't stop. There are still trials into influenza vaccines.
Covid vaccines in UK were given temporary Authorisation under Regulation 174 of the Human Medicine Regulations 2012 (amended).
Emergency Use Authorization by the FDA in U.S.A.
https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/vaccines/emergency-use-authorization-vaccines-explained
There are clinical trials and real world trials for vaccines.
"How well do COVID vaccines work in the real world?" "The Conversation" 1st July 2021.
https://theconversation.com/how-well-do-covid-vaccines-work-in-the-real-world-162926
"The Conversation" is a reputable website. It's been given 100% score by "NewsGuard" for adherence to journalistic standards of credibility and transparency.
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Secondly, the link I posted previously.
Is from THE LANCET.
Lastly, you attempt to tarnish the validity of these MEDICAL AUTHORITY links, with an unreferenced, anonymous quote from a museum spokesperson.
"The Lancet" article is from 2004.
The only part of it which is relevant to the current debate is the final paragraph which references the Helsinki Declaration. It would have been more appropriate and certainly less inflammatory if you had quoted or posted a link to the Helsinki Declaration.
I didn't question the accuracy of the article. I know what happened in camps and hospitals under the Nazi regime. I was criticising the linking of vaccines to Nazis. This linking by anti-vaccination campaigners isn't new. It's just that it's in the news more now because of COVID. I quoted the reaction of Auschwitz Memorial Museum to a similar linking because s/he put it better than I would have done.
The Auschwitz museum comment was reported in "Jewish Telegraphic Agency" 12th July 2021 and
"Times of Israel" 13th July 2021.
Such linkage is hurtful. It may also be harmful. Health workers have suffered abuse during the pandemic on account of unsubstantiated accusations.
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I have deleted the comment, but leave the link about statistics ...
UK Gov
Page 23 of Technical Briefing 21 (pdf version)
Delta numbers with / without vaccination
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-of-novel-sars-cov-2-variant-variant-of-concern-20201201
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Don’t know about the UK BushInn, but in Victoria our updates include vaccination status. So far no one in ICU have been double jabbed.
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In NSW we have had one (1) "elderly" person with both vaccinations die as a result of Covid
The majority of those on ventilators have had no vaccinations, and a few have had 1 only.
OH and I did not ask about getting vaccinated, our GP centre rang us with an appointment to get the first one, and the nurse who administered it organised the second. We are now fully vaccinated, and have the appropriate information in my wallet.
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Firstly, this link should allay any questions on the FACT that this IS a medical trial.
https://covid19vaccinetrial.co.uk
Secondly, the link I posted previously,
Very much relevant to medical trials being forced upon human subjects.
Here it is again.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(04)17619-8/fulltext
Is from THE LANCET.
Lastly, you attempt to tarnish the validity of these MEDICAL AUTHORITY links, with an unreferenced, anonymous quote from a museum spokesperson.
If anyone fails, or ignorantly refuses to see the correlation between history and today, then we are on the road to repeating it.
It is not a fact that this is a trial vaccine, the fact is that there are ongoing trials into the vaccine. These are not the same things. The vaccine has met all the testing criteria to be an approved to the same standard as any other product. Firstly in use monitoring occurs with absolutely every newly released product. Secondly when a product receives it's license that license specifies the patient group, the dosage and indications that product can be used under license (any other use would be termed 'off label'. Once a product has received it's license it is very common for the manufacturer to carry out further testing, more trials so to speak to be able to update guidelines in future and more importantly to hopefully extend the licensing criteria which has profit implications for them. There are therefore people signed up as trial subjects, some only in retrospective studies (ie have received a dose in accordance with the current licence). Currently trials are looking at extending the patient groups who can be included in the licence and the need for/safety of boosters. Absolutley NONE of this means people are receiving a trial medication.
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Semantics, trials/experiments. Still leaves a lot of guinea pigs, no matter how you split the terminology.
This being a family history forum, I think it is fair to expect a high percentage of experienced, historical researchers, whose capabilities stretch beyond 2020 and the onset of covid. Who can go back as far as their searches take them. Who can then assimilate or join the dots of those searches and form their own conclusions, opinions and decisions based on those findings.
They reserve and deserve that right .
Nobody has the right to demand that someone else should be forced to comply with their opinion/decision. No matter WHO they may be, or what 'position' they hold.
Emotional appeals of don't mention/consider/research/refer to... it's hurtful to Jews, is in itself harmful.
I may be Jewish.
I may be Jewish and multi vaccinated.
It's not about Jews, they were only one segment of a targeted population. It's not even about Nazis, it went beyond and further back than that.
Aktion T4 was ongoing before either of the World Wars. The main advocates, among others, being USA, CANADA, DENMARK.
Soldiers enlisting for WW1, had to comply to be vaccinated, conscription effectively was forced medical compliance. Many of these soldiers died as a result of vaccination before they even had a chance to die abroad.
Covid is just another link in a very long chain of scientists and their ideas/ideals.
Some may say that the Mad Scientists have taken over. The lunatics running the asylum so to speak.
Science and Technology and religion, my personal research and experience, my dots, join to form a much bigger picture than what is shown on the surface of each individual dot.
But these are my opinions, of which I have the right to form and to go by. I don't insist that you must adhere to them.
I do insist that you research and find your own dots, to form and follow your own bigger picture... and that your research goes beyond 2020.
As I have already said, this is a family history forum, that is why I chose to be on this forum, that is why I am here. This is not a medical research forum, I'm sure there are plenty medical forums to be joined if that is your wont. The only connection I can see is the use of unwitting family history researchers who upload their Dna/genetics to form a worldwide database.
Let's hope they, or their descendants don't suffer because of that decision.
Our original OP has declined to join his own thread apparently, left his inflammatory post, jumped in once, reply #11, with the tired (and tiresome) old trope about conspiracy theories then shuffled off to hide. In street parlance, a troublemaker, a sh*t stirrer and nothing more.
In summary, this forum is not the place for this topic. But it does show that facism is still alive and festering.
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Deplorable.
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Yes erato, so you keep saying.
Means nothing, adds nothing.
But it is your opinion and you're entitled to it.
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Time to move on, I think.
Courtesy, good manners and tolerance - please, everyone try to remember that, however hard it may be at times.
Nell
Topic locked