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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: ankerpep_52 on Friday 06 August 21 17:50 BST (UK)
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Fred was born 8 Nov 1908, Ourtram NZ. Occcup-bank mgr-looking for information as to where, dates etc. Did he marry-details, who, where, when etc. I understand the Gov't records are up to 1941 and I do not have access. His father was Frederick George Hartley, born England, died 1918 in Stratford NZ-Mother- Eva Kempthorne, born Dunedin 1867 and died in Z 1962-would like to have details of her death-what place, where buried etc. Thank you in advance for reading this querie and hoping to hear back Janet in Canada
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He went through the English and Welsh Probate system, so you could apply for his will. His Christchurch address is given as 116 Rossall Street.
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Electoral Rolls:
1935: Eva (mum?) and Fred at 44 Knowles Street, Canterbury
1938: As above
1946: As above
1949: As above, but also another female who I wont name (potentially still alive) (spinster)
1954: As above, (mum, Fred and ?sister)
1957: as above
1963: Fred and ?sister at 44 Knowles Street
1969: Just Fred at 44 Knowles Street
1972: Fred at 44 Knowles Street, now gives his profession as retired rather than bank clerk.
1978: As above
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Fred was cremated
Memorial at Woodlawn Memorial Gardens
Also on there
Eva Hartley 15-4-62
Nancy A Hartley 25-1-66
On BillionGraves, you may need to log in
https://billiongraves.com/grave/Fred-O-Hartley/11993047
Will of Fred Outram Hartley of Christchurch, Retired Bank Officer is here
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE66428976
Will of Eva Hartley of Christchurch, widow
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE69411193
Will of Nancy Allison Hartley of Christchurch, spinster
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE70909997
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John W-Thank you for your speedy response to my querie and for all thie information. This has been very helpful. Janet
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Spidermonkey-Was this Roswell St Address where he was living when the will was made or when the will was read?
Surely do appreciate your information. Janet
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Thank you very much- Would you kindly look at the census records to locate the name of the bank he was with , where located and his positions while there?? Janet
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Diploma in Banking
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TS19311221.2.40?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=F.+O.+hartley&snippet=true
Other mentions in newspapers (free at link above). Golf, tennis, badminton, bridge.
1934, he stayed at “The Lodge” Hanmer Springs. (And other years. Looks as though that was his regular spot in the 1930s
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TS19340424.2.81?items_per_page=10&page=2&phrase=2&query=F.+O.+hartley&snippet=true
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Census records for NZ are not kept
But looks like the National Bank
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CROMARG19370118.2.14?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=F.+O.+hartley&snippet=true
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bank_of_New_Zealand
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Cenotaph record:
https://www.aucklandmuseum.com/war-memorial/online-cenotaph/record/131921?n=fred+outram+hartley&from=%2Fwar-memorial%2Fonline-cenotaph%2Fsearch&ordinal=0
Minniehaha.
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Father was also with The National Bank
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/STEP19180805.2.19?items_per_page=10&query=hartley+National+bank&snippet=true
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Here is a link to NZ BDM's
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search
Cheers Janette
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WW2 Ballot draft confirms that he was with the National Bank, Greymouth.
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Details for Katheen Eva nee Hartley:
Birth:
1892/14397 Hartley Kathleen Eva Eva Frederick George
Marriage:
1920/10021 Kathleen Eva Hartley Richard Hickman Webb
Death:
1961/31287 Webb Kathleen Eva 69Y
Estate papers:
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=19669780&digital=yes
WW1 record for husband:
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22017341&digital=yes
His probated will:
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22318721&digital=yes
Minniehaha.
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Mickha 489-Wow there was much more information on Fred than I thought possible to access-thanks so much. Janet
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Death notice for nephew
https://notices.nzherald.co.nz/obituaries/nzherald-nz/obituary.aspx?n=bruce-anthony-webb&pid=152387493&referrer=2865
Oops wrong one
This one!
1968/42335 Webb Bruce Anthony 46Y
Apparently no children, and sister is still Webb, so looks as though this branch of the family is now extinct as they say
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56106660
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Some snippets:
Death notice Frederick George Hartley:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/STEP19180805.2.13?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=eva+hartley&snippet=true
Kathleen’s marriage:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19210122.2.4?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=eva+hartley&snippet=true
Kathleen dux of school: [See reply #22]
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19210122.2.4?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=eva+hartley&snippet=true
Minniehaha.
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Might be niece’s death
2014/5728 Webb Pamela 9 January 1924
Yes. Death notice
https://deaths.press.co.nz/obituaries/the-press-nz/obituary.aspx?n=pamela-webb&pid=169955224&referrer=3329
Notice donations to help rebuild of a church, this is following the Christchurch earthquake.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/canterbury-top-stories/108327564/new-all-souls-church-opens-on-old-st-marys-site-in-merivale-christchurch
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Hartley marriage [1891]…..
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD18911128.2.5?end_date=31-12-1891&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=t.+w.+kempthorne&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1891
An account of the marriage:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OW18911105.2.183?end_date=31-12-1891&items_per_page=10&page=4&phrase=2&query=frederick+george&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1891
[Kempthorne a well known name in the city of Dunedin.]
Minniehaha.
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Some snippets:
Kathleen dux of school:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19210122.2.4?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=eva+hartley&snippet=true
Minniehaha.
Wrong link Minnie.
It appears that Fred Outram Hartley is an old boy of Christs College.
Cheers
KHP
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Just a litttle snippet on Fred's middle name.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outram,_New_Zealand
They were living in Outram when Kathleen attended school in 1901.
Cheers
KHP
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Birth announcements::
Birth [1908]:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT19081119.2.39?end_date=31-12-1911&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=f.+g.+hartley&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1891
Birth [1892]:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OW18920901.2.101?end_date=31-12-1911&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=f.+g.+hartley&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1891
Minniehaha.
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Here is the correct link re:
Kathleen Eva Hartley- DUX.......
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT19060104.2.89?end_date=31-12-1913&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=kathleen+eva+&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1893&title=AHCOG%2cBH%2cCL%2cCROMARG%2cDUNST%2cESD%2cLCM%2cLCP%2cLWM%2cME%2cMIC%2cMTBM%2cNOT%2cOAM%2cODT%2cOW%2cOSWCC%2cSOCR%2cST%2cTT%2cWSTAR
Minniehaha.
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Obituary of Mr. F. G. Hartley [1918]:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TH19180806.2.13?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=nancy+hartley&snippet=true
Minniehaha.
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Biography of the father-in-law of Fred Outram Hartley which may be of interest:
https://teara.govt.nz/en/biographies/1k8/kempthorne-thomas-whitelock
Minniehaha.
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Spidermonkey-Was this Roswell St Address where he was living when the will was made or when the will was read?
Surely do appreciate your information. Janet
The link to the will appears @ reply #3. One of the affidavits reads "formerly of 44 Knowles Street but late of 116 Rossall Street, Christchurch".......
Minniehaha.
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Hi --Bruce Anthony married in 1946, had 3 children- Julia the oldest married in 1968 and had 2 children. Caroline the middle child was in the States when her dad died in 2011. Andrew the youngest married in 1976 and had 4 children. So the family is still carrying on. Bruce's mother and I are 1st cousins, 1 x removed FYI Janet
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Oh. So his obituary is the one I thought was the wrong one in reply #15?
https://notices.nzherald.co.nz/obituaries/nzherald-nz/obituary.aspx?n=bruce-anthony-webb&pid=152387493&referrer=2865
Who only died in 2011
Who cannot therefore be the one whose Will left everything to his sister Pamela. Also linked in reply #15
There are two Bruce Anthony Webb’s in the death register of very similar birth dates.
The 2011 death gives a birth date which is now more than 100 years ago and he does not show on the birth indexes as he would if born in NZ. Although off to check that again,
Registration Number Family Name Given Name(s) Date of Birth/Age at Death
1968/42335 Webb Bruce Anthony 46y
2011/15798 Webb Bruce Anthony 23 July 1921
Added. No Webb births between 22 July 1921 and 24 July 1921
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Think this could be the birth of Bruce Anthony the son of Kathleen Hartley. October 28th 1921 (which fits with the date of their wedding)
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TS19211101.2.2.1?end_date=31-12-1922&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=R.+H.+Webb&snippet=true&start_date=21-07-1921
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Do you have the 1946 marriage certificate?
Married in England. He is of Birmingham
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD19460520.2.26?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=Bruce+Anthony+webb&snippet=true
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His Cenotaph record:
https://www.aucklandmuseum.com/war-memorial/online-cenotaph/record/142542?n=bruce+anthony+webb&from=%2Fwar-memorial%2Fonline-cenotaph%2Fsearch&ordinal=0
Minniehaha.
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Is this the birth in UK perhaps?
WEBB, BRUCE ANTHONY MMN GREGORY
GRO Reference: 1921 S Quarter in HAMPSTEAD Volume 01A Page 987
If so, looks like a brother Hedley John WEBB born 1923.
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His Cenotaph record:
https://www.aucklandmuseum.com/war-memorial/online-cenotaph/record/142542?n=bruce+anthony+webb&from=%2Fwar-memorial%2Fonline-cenotaph%2Fsearch&ordinal=0
Minniehaha.
This is of course the son of Kathleen who died 1968
The other one was in the R.N.V.R. See London Gazette 3 March 1944 Posting to Ty Lieut.
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Hope Ankerpep confirms which is the correct family as the Dudleys look very interesting too
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19390404.2.10.3?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=Natalie+Dudley+&snippet=true
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Do you have the 1946 marriage certificate?
Married in England. He is of Birmingham
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD19460520.2.26?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=Bruce+Anthony+webb&snippet=true
Marriage in England-is the wong person, I don't have the marriage cert but the parents always lived in Christchurch NZ and also his sister Pamela. I have deleted the england marriage and the children from my records and will have to rethink this family. Janet
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Thank you for all the research sites-very interesting and did obtain some information that I did not have. This is definitely the correct family...You have access to may records that I dod not know how to reserch so appreciate your efforts. Janet
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Would you put the site onto the mesage where I can see this bank draft? I have been tryng to locate this information for quite a long time and thank you. Janet
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Bank draft?
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Spidermonkey- Could you please show me the site where you located this? Great news, I have been trying to locate it for a long time-many thanks. Janet
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Spidermonkey- I don't know why it would go through England as he always lived in NZ. and I think we have the wrong person.
or perhaps I am getting his information confused.. Was his sister's name Kathleen also on the ww11 bank draft or included anywhere? Janet
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Here is the ballot. Page 2395 NZ Gazette of August 6th 1941
http://www.nzlii.org/nz/other/nz_gazette/1941/63.pdf
(you have to zoom out to get the page to focus sometimes)
Modified to add a better link
http://www.nzlii.org/nz/other/nz_gazette/1941/63/145.pdf
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Do you mean the will "going through England"?
If there was property in England, then it would have to be proved in both places. But the will itself will be the one already linked to you.
Bruce Anthony (the 1968 death one) 's will also went through English probate. (as well as NZ)
edited for clarity
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Quote:
"Marriage in England-is the wong person, I don't have the marriage cert but the parents always lived in Christchurch NZ and also his sister Pamela. I have deleted the england marriage and the children from my records and will have to rethink this family. Janet"
For the record, a marriage for Bruce Anthony WEBB not found in New Zealand [up to 1956]
Minniehaha.
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Janet from your reply #26 wherein you named children*.
If you search here:
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/search
You will find all three* WEBB births; a daughter in 1947, another in 1951 and the son in
1952. Mother's maiden name is shown. This ties in with the newspaper marriage notice in reply #29.
Minniehaha.
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Purewa Cemetery [Auckland] record:
Surname WEBB
First Names Bruce Anthony
Age 89 Years
Gender Male
Date of Death Unknown
Religion Not Listed
Serial No 84923
Date of Service and/or Interment 5 Jul 2011
Type Of Service None
Funeral Director Sibuns Funeral Advisors, 582 Remuera Road, Remuera, AUCKLAND
Ashes Disposal Returned
Book Of Remembrance No
MInniehaha.
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I believe this to be the probated will of the maternal grandfather of the three aforementioned children:
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=19663230&digital=yes
[At the time of the execution of the will only one Webb grandchild had been born and her name is incorrect in the will.]
Minniehaha.
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Minihaha=Thanks for the Probate record=However his name is not Frederick Dudley, he did not have a sister named Mary Good. His sisters were Kathleen Eva, and Nancy Allison. Fred was employed in the bank rather than being a Carrying Contractor. Ha also died This is definitely not the same person, but thank you for trying. Janet
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I believe this to be the probated will of the maternal grandfather of the three aforementioned children:
Which related to this earlier reply
Janet from your reply #26 wherein you named children*.
If you search here:
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/search
You will find all three* WEBB births; a daughter in 1947, another in 1951 and the son in
1952. Mother's maiden name is shown. This ties in with the newspaper marriage notice in reply #29.
Minniehaha.
Added, just to clarify. Which all relates to the Bruce Anthony Webb who died in 2011 and was not the nephew of Fred Outram Harvey
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Post deleted.
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Hi --Bruce Anthony married in 1946, had 3 children- Julia the oldest married in 1968 and had 2 children. Caroline the middle child was in the States when her dad died in 2011. Andrew the youngest married in 1976 and had 4 children. So the family is still carrying on. Bruce's mother and I are 1st cousins, 1 x removed FYI Janet
Hi Janet,
Can you let us know whether or not you still have these children on your family tree please. I ask because of a comment made earlier.......
"Marriage in England-is the wong person, I don't have the marriage cert but the parents always lived in Christchurch NZ and also his sister Pamela. I have deleted the england marriage and the children from my records and will have to rethink this family. Janet"
Minniehaha.
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Hi --Bruce Anthony married in 1946, had 3 children- Julia the oldest married in 1968 and had 2 children. Caroline the middle child was in the States when her dad died in 2011. Andrew the youngest married in 1976 and had 4 children. So the family is still carrying on. Bruce's mother and I are 1st cousins, 1 x removed FYI Janet
Hi Janet,
Can you let us know whether or not you still have these children on your family tree please. I ask because of a comment made earlier.......
"Marriage in England-is the wong person, I don't have the marriage cert but the parents always lived in Christchurch NZ and also his sister Pamela. I have deleted the england marriage and the children from my records and will have to rethink this family. Janet"
Minniehaha.
1942 & 1945- Army records, private in Inf Reinfor (Infantry Reinforcements) address- 110 Aikmans Rd, Merivale, father-
R H Webb Service #ww11 256714-
1946-.Bruce Anthony WEBB (school teacher) and Pamela (spinster) are at the Aikman's Road address with their parents
1946-June -marriage to Natalie M Dudley.Gosport Hampshire Eng.****** (WRONG INFORMATION)*******
It is not possible that he married in England and living with parents & sister at 110 Aikmans Rd NZ at the same time. Some information is really mixed up & I am truly confused. Janet
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Hi ,
Are the three children you have mentioned above, on your Webb family tree?
Minniehaha.
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This is a very hasty outline of the Fred Outram Hartley family
links to all the details are on the thread.
Frederick George Hartley (died 1918) married 1891 to Eva Kempthorne (died 1962)
They had.
3. Frederick Outram Hartley. b 1908 d 1981 he did not marry and had no children. His will is on Archway.
2. Nancy Allison Hartley b 1898 d 1966 She did not marry and had no children
1. Kathleen Eva Hartley b 1892 d 1961 she married Richard or Rickard Hickman WEBB.
They had Bruce Anthony WEBB born 28 Oct 1921* died 1968. he did not marry and had no children
and Pamela WEBB 1924-2014 who also did not marry and had no children.
It is dinner time, here (well drinks before dinner time ;D) I'll do the Other Bruce Anthony family for you later.
* Added - exact date of birth.
on the 29th October this year that birth should show in the online indexes
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The other Bruce Anthony WEBB (b 23 July 1921 - d 30 June 2011). (see reply #27)
married 1st at Warblington Hampshire to Natalie Mary DUDLEY of Christchurch NZ
Bruce = a Lieutenant on the staff of the senior officer, Royal Naval Establishment, India
they had the three children previously named, all in England
J.M. 1947
C.A.D 1951
A.R.C. 1952
At some point the marriage broke down and Natalie is in NZ by 1958 when she was applying for her NZ citizenship (either because she was born in Australia, or lost her NZ citizenship by virtue of her marriage to Bruce Anthony Webb I am not sure of the technicalities of that)
This Bruce Anthony remarried somewhere and at some time to “Lidia’ who is named as his wife in the 2011 death notice.
I don’t know when he came to NZ nor who Lidia was.
I think Natalie Mary WEBB nee DUDLEY’s death might possibly be back in England, which makes sense if the children stayed there.
WEBB, NATALIE MARY 1919
GRO Reference: DOR Q2/1993 in STOURBRIDGE (0661B) Reg SB2F Entry Number 300
Natalie’s father was Frederick Richard DUDLEY whose probate record was linked by Minniehaha in post #45
I hope that makes the differences between the two different Bruce Anthony WEBBs clear.
They are two different unrelated men, united by a common name and year of birth
If you still have any doubts whatsoever then I recommend you buying the death register printouts for both men.
NZ death certificates are detailed. especially the 2011 one. The print out can be ordered online and will be emailed to you.
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Search/Search?Path=querySubmit.m%3fReportName%3dDeathSearch%26recordsPP%3d30