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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Dinkydidy on Wednesday 04 August 21 07:53 BST (UK)
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Can anyone clarify why this Attestation Form is different from the usual white one? What were the Special Forces referred to? I assume there might be some clue in the long line of initials?
I know there is a specialised Armed Forces board, but thought it might not be familiar with Australian details.
I don't wish to identify the (deceased) individual at this stage, due to a sensitive, irregular family relationship which was the cause of legal action many years ago.
Didy
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I dont know the answer, but I would like to find it out ... it is n excellent question..
Have you asked the National Archives of Australia or the Australian War Memorial.... their websites have 'contact us' email access.
JM
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Looking at the NAA site:
AASC is possibly Australian Army Service Corps
TD is possibly Training Depot
M
Add:
EC possibly Education Centre edit: or Eastern Command
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Thanks for the suggestion Matthew. I think I'll contact the War Memorial.
Didy
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Sent query. They may take 10 days or so to reply.
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Matthew's suggestions are very likely to be spot on. I have just had a phone call from an Aunty (wife of my Uncle George) who says Eastern Command, Australian Army Service Corps, Training Depot at Redbank Barracks (its near Ipswich, in Qld) was where her brother was.
http://www.historia.net.au/equal-to-the-task_v1-raasc/e1-fore/index.html
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/PL504054
Looking at the NAA site:
AASC is possibly Australian Army Service Corps
TD is possibly Training Depot
M
Add:
EC possibly Education Centre edit: or Eastern Command
JM
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Thanks majm. It sounds quite reasonable and I will possibly be able to confirm that when I get a response from the AWM.
I'm still curious about the different coloured form. It contained no next of kin details, and also included mug-shot type photographs, which I've not encountered before.
Didy
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My Dad's WWII file has NO photo, but his first cousin's does. They both enlisted on same day, in queue together, interviewed by same chap etc.
I will make some phone calls tomorrow morning. :D :D
PS Both served overseas ...
JM
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Attaching a snip that may be of interest. I do NOT have permission to share the NX details as that file includes information that identifies a living person.
Have you sighted the actual document or only the digitised image. I ask this as my rellie who is a retired Archivist reminds me that sometimes the digitiser deliberately adjusted the colour so that the digitised image is enhanced to assist legibility.
JM
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See also
https://www.naa.gov.au/explore-collection/defence-and-war-service-records/army-world-war-ii-1939-45
JM
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:D
The AA Form A200 this info based on a living returned serviceman from WWII born 1918. He enlisted late 1939 in NSW, and served in the Middle East and New Guinea. Notice the form number is top right hand corner. The other two images found in earlier posts are both later versions of that form, thus dating the earliest those chaps enlisted... :D
Notice too that this Attestation form is also headed 'For Special Forces Raised for Service in Australia or Abroad'. ... and it too has a faint pinkness to it. Notice the indelible pencil mark is fading from a deep purple away to a redness in the markings within the stamp on the left hand side...
JM (please ignore the wrong year in the file name)
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Sometimes it is very important to be pedantic, and this is one occasion that that is so.
The chap on that original AA form in Reply #10, also mentioned that back a decade ago when he first sought the NAA copy of his service file to help a grandchild's school project, that he paid for the NAA to digitise the document and also to provide him with a presentation hard copy. He has checked that presentation hard copy.
It is printed on exceptionally high quality bond WHITE paper, no 'pinkness' ... BUT .... he cannot remember if, back in 1939, he signed on pink paper or not, but thinks pink paper would not have been usual. :D :D :D
He (aged 102) will go online and read my post before lunchtime today, and if I need to change it, he will phone me and dictate the changes to me. It is 10.15 a.m. at the moment. :D ::) ::) ::)
JM
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I have only seen the digitised service record, and only the first page is coloured as shown. All printing and handwriting shows quite clearly on this and other pages. The reverse of the pink form is blank except for the small front and profile mugshots and a checking stamp.
The man enlisted in NSW in early 1941 and served in the Middle East and New Guinea. I can't see anything unusual in his reported posting and casualty records, and he was discharged in late 1945.
I am amazed at your veteran ex-serviceman's recall, and appreciate his help.
The form in the example you posted yesterday is very similar, with the main differences being that mine has no question 13 about education, and is completed fully by hand, not typed.
I have played around with increasing and decreasing the colour saturation of documents a little myself, so I know that even a pink document could be adjusted to produce a black and white copy.
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The NX number indicates that he lived / enlisted in New South Wales and served overseas.
Dawn M
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Thanks Dawn.
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The reply from the AWM regarding the colour:
"Q1. Colour of attestation form
Regrettably, I'n unable to provide a definitive answer. This is not a question I've received before. I've asked one of my Reference Officer colleagues, who is very experienced, and one of our Second World War historians, and neither of them have seen this information anywhere or been asked this question previously. We all agree that we've see the forms to which you refer, many times in our work, but we've never thought about whether the colours of the paper have different significance or uses.
The discussions with my colleagues resulted in two thoughts. One is that there was scarcity of paper during the war, and it could just have been that the attestation forms were printed on the paper that was available at the time. Or it may have been a reason such as whether those who were enlisted with the Citizens Military Force (CMF) were printed on a different colour of paper than those who joined the Australian Imperial Force (AIF). To find the truth in this, one would need to look through a lot of Second World War records to determine the colour of the paper, and whether the person enlisted in the CMF or AIF. This research is beyond the resources of the reference service we offer."
Regarding the initials of the unit, Matthew at Reply #2 was pretty much on the mark.
E.C.A.A.S.C.T.D. = Eastern Command Australian Army Service Corps Training Depot.
Thanks again to all who contributed their time and knowledge.
Didy
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It is very good of you to share that information, many thanks.
JM
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Hi there,
My ancient living rellies have been brain storming, led by one who is a retired Archivist, started out at the Archives Office when it was part of NSW Library on Macquarie St, and went with it to Kingswood and then was seconded to Canberra to the NAA.
Using the naa.gov.au record search option, and just using the keyword option, enter your chap's NX number. (only the number, not his name/s, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE). Notice that there's TWO options - a pdf set and a digitised set. The brilliant pink of the pdf set is NOT near as brilliant pink on the digitised set, but that initial form is definitely on pink paper.
So, go back to the keyword search option, and change the NX numbers you are searching for... use the same first FOUR digits after the NX, but vary the final digit, some higher and some lower...
Some of these have been digitised, but even reading the index info, for the ones not yet digitised, there's every reason to believe that Paddington NSW recruitment was using PINK attestation forms in early 1942.... Paddington is where Victoria Barracks has been located ever since the mid 1840s.. :D
There's those PINK forms. :D :D :D .... one chap was E.C. 1st Reserve M.T .... :D
JM
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Very interesting JM. I bet there was a bit of grumbling amongst the intrepid Aussies at being handed pink forms. ;D
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Very interesting.... Early April 1940, NX1aaaa (a being a number !) a chap born in regional NSW, in a town on the Lachlan River, travelled by train to Central Station, Sydney to enlist. He asked at Central, and was informed to go to Victoria Barracks, so he walked there. (this is oral history from his son, who went to school with one of my younger siblings). He signed up at Victoria Barracks, and the form was P I N K ...
Son knows this because his Dad told him so, and his Dad had added, Victoria Barracks was allowed to use PINK as it was the headquarters, and the Sun never sets of the British Empire which is PINK on all the maps.
So, I am basically sharing some urban myth, but I have just now checked the naa.gov.au and .... yes there's the digitised B883 file for that chap. He was a Private, 2/13 battalion, (Tobruk), POW
I will send you a PM with his NX number. - Yes, there's that form in that file and yes, it is on PINK paper.
JM