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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: stewpot72 on Friday 30 July 21 12:16 BST (UK)
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My GGGrandfather Patrick Doyle was born in Queens county, Ireland around 1821. By 1851 he had moved to Liverpool with his family but had died by the time of the 1861 census.
The family lived in Woolf/Upper Wolfe street, Liverpool from 1851 until 1876 but the only GRO death certificate I can find that matches at all is for a Patrick Doyle age 32, who died in 1853 while living at number 22 Court, Bond Street. In attendance was Sarah Brian but I can't find any family link with her. so that puzzles me.
Any thoughts on the difference of address?
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Do you have the census reference for 1851?
Other family members perhaps?
I have looked at a few entries but none are living at that address in 1851 so presumably they are not him. :)
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The burial records for Patrick of Bond Street show him as 39 yrs born abt 1814. :-\
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1861 shows a son James Patrick Doyle b 1859 plus 2 older children b 1852 & 1854.
Indication possibly that he died later than 1853??
Occ was shipsmith and although that doesn’t suggest he was a mariner - he could possibly have changed occupations after 1861
What was the occupation of the Patrick who died 1853?
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1861 shows a son James Patrick Doyle b 1859 plus 2 older children b 1852 & 1854.
Indication possibly that he died later than 1853??
Occ was shipsmith and although that doesn’t suggest he was a mariner - he could possibly have changed occupations after 1861
What was the occupation of the Patrick who died 1853?
Sorry - I can’t see James Patrick b 1859 in 1861. (Is it me? ) Do you have the reference, Carole?
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Just to say, I have them in Toxteth Park in 1851 :)
And 1861 now.
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From the GRO. Edited
Joseph Doyle, 1853, Catherine, 1855, John James, 1857, Thomas, 1858, James Patrick, 1859. MMN. Fox, all West Derby
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The family in 1871 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDD1-8XH
Dont think the ages are correct for Thomas & Anne
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For anyone searching them on Anc. I think this is the family transcribed as ‘Taylor’. It is so feint, it can barely be read but those ages look the same on the census page.
1871 3799/17/27
There is also Mary Randfield, 6 yrs granddaughter. (Presumably the child of daughter, Mary).
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I'm slightly confused by the various comments. The family are definitely in Upper Wolfe street in 1851 between numbers 189 and 187. Then in 1861, his wife Bridget is still there (Woolf street, Toxteth Park) but is now widowed. This time they are between numbers 138 and 140 in a Provision Shop.
So I'm calculating that Patrick, born abt. 1821, died around the age of 30.
He was a Shipsmith in 1851 but the death certificate in 1853 for the Patrick I have found says this Patrick is a Labourer. So, the only thing that really matches is his age.
If I can ascertain a link between where he lived (Upper Wolfe street) and where he died (Bond street courts) that would add to the evidence. A bit tenuous but its all I have to go on :-(
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Sorry to confuse. I couldn’t find them initially because I was searching using Liverpool as a reference when it should have been Toxteth Park.
We all, I think agree with the censuses.
There are children born after your death presumption.
There are 2 burial records for the same man, Patrick Doyle, 39 yrs, 22 Court, Bond Street. Burial 4th December 1853. They are handwritten and from St Anthony’s parish records.
Is that the same man you have a certificate for?
He might have died at sea if his job entailed sailing.
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Hi stewpot72
There were children born to Patrick and Bridget after 1853 so this death cannot be his.
Daughter Catherine's baptism in 1855 shows:
Baptism: 7 Jan 1855 St Patrick, Toxteth, Lancashire, England
Catharine Doyle - [Child] of Pat. Doyle & Bridget (formerly Fox)
Born: 2 Jan 1855
Godparents: Richard Durnin; Mary Dun
Parents' Marital Status: Conj.
Baptised by: E. Kenrick
Register: Baptisms 1853 - 1855, Page 394, Entry 2
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
From above: Parents' Marital Status: Conj. - Conjugate,
does this mean that parents were not married but lived together as man and wife?
Kloumann mentioned earlier that son James Patrick was born in 1859. So from his conception to the date of the 1861 census looks to be your window for Patrick's death I would suggest.
Added: James Patrick was born on 23 Nov 1859 and baptised at St Patrick's on the 27th of that month. Parents Patrick Doyle and Bridget Fox.
Monica
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It means they were married.
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Thank you, heywood :)
Monica
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Thank you for all your comments. If only I had my brain in gear regarding when his children were born I would have worked out that he must have died around 1859.
Heywood mentioned that he may have died at sea. I found a Patrick Doyle who was drowned when the Royal Charter, a Liverpool vessel, was sunk in a storm off the Anglesey coast in October 1859. I will do a bit more digging to see what I can verify and post my findings. Many thanks again.
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Anyone with a subscription to Findmypast can view the Register of Wages & Effects for Patrick Doyle
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Is it the right one, Kloumann?
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There are several articles on here about the incident
https://newspapers.library.wales/
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Anyone with a subscription to Findmypast can view the Register of Wages & Effects for Patrick Doyle
And anyone with access to ancestry. It doesn't really help with identification.
Plenty about the Royal Charter in the Liverpool papers, there are announcements of some of the dead in notices placed around the country.
Sinking of the Royal Charter
https://www.anglesey-history.co.uk/places/royal-charter/index.html
Kloumann mentioned earlier that son James Patrick was born in 1859. So from his conception to the date of the 1861 census looks to be your window for Patrick's death I would suggest.
Added: James Patrick was born on 23 Nov 1859 and baptised at St Patrick's on the 27th of that month. Parents Patrick Doyle and Bridget Fox.
Getting the birth certificate/pdf might possibly help?
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On FindMyPast, where can I view the Register of Wages & Effect you refer to?
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I think I have found the Register of Wages and Effects - its a catalogue of various crew members who have died at sea?
Patrick Doyle was Engaged on either 16/5/59 or 16/8/59 - the month number is hard to read.
It also says he was paid £12.9s.6d on 3rd November 1859, in Liverpool. Does anyone know how this works - was the money paid to his family in Liverpool as he would have been at sea in November? And was the money his earnings from the whole voyage? And were crew engaged from the start of the journey in Liverpool or from embarkation coming back from Australia?
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"From 1851 onwards Masters of UK ships were required to surrender to the Board of
Trade the wages and effects of any seaman who died during a voyage. These records
included the following information concerning the seaman: name, date and place of
joining the ship, date and cause of death, name, official number (after 1854) and port of
ship: name of master, date and place of payment of wages, the amount of wages and
date of receipt by Board of Trade."
As we can see, the final column is Date when sent to Board of Trade (11/11/59)
Date of engagement of Patrick Doyle was 16/5/59
PD wasn't at sea in November, as he drowned 26 October 1859.
Maybe there's a clue as to his ranking on the Royal Charter from the amount of wages? :-\
What would the man in question likely be doing if it was him? Carpenter? :-\ Or was he short of work and just signed on as an ordinary seaman?
If Patrick Doyle had been living in Liverpool for a good number of years would it be likely that there would be some mention of him in the newspapers there? :-\
I am also puzzled by some of the names of the crew who died, various names come up online, but I can't see them at all in the register!
Sorry for the waffle, we need an expert on the merchant navy
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Many thanks for putting me straight on the dates. PD was a Ship Smith according to the 1851 census and, as the ship was part sail, part steam, this occupation seems a likely fit to me.
I'll dig into the newspaper records and see if that throws any light on who exactly this Patrick Doyle was.
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Hi,
Royal charter left Melbourne on 26th August 1859, Patric Doyle who signed up 16th May 1859 in Liverpool so started and sadly ended his voyage in England. His effects, wages, being £12 9s 6d.
The register of effects per Ancestry, show a number of pages of the crew commencing at image 182.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60998/images/engltna1d_bt153-box0003-001_0182?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=41ba5b9a500e40a844f02d8a86310370&pId=89085
Spendlove.
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Have you looked at the Register of Deaths at Sea 1859. It used to be on FindMyPast as I do not have a
subscription I cannot look.
If there is nothing there take a look at the relevent copy of the Logbook and Crew Agreement ROYAL CHARTER Official number 1355
These documents should help confirm wether or not your Patrick Doyle was on board.
You would be best advised to visit TNA Kew yourself. If indeed he was on board,the Crew agreement should tell you which ship he served on before ROYAL CHARTER, his rank, his last address and possibly his NoK. There may be reference to him in the Logbook. Whilst at Kew you can follow up these leads. Search with O/N
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4069941
If you cannot get to Kew ask for a quote to copy the relevent pages 16/May/1859 to 26/10/59 Otherwise they will quote you for the total year
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Hi,
Ancestry have “uk register of birth, marriages, deaths at sea 1844-90”, however these are for passengers.
The list of deaths for passengers for Royal Charter, commence on image 150
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60998/images/44995_bt_158_02_0150?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=41ba5b9a500e40a844f02d8a86310370&pId=358483
Spendlove
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I'm still pursuing information and have contacted National Archives to see what they have. Just waiting to hear what they will charge me for a search.
Out of curiosity, apart from the information submitted to the Board of Trade regarding his death, would there be any other official death registration? I have looked in the GRO records but nothing is coming up. Where would the death be registered - North Wales where he died, or Liverpool where he had lived?
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Sorry replied to wrong post :-[
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Sorry replied to wrong post :-[
Did you mean to reply to "Patrick Doyle lost at sea "? Was he a different man?
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Sorry replied to wrong post :-[
Did you mean to reply to "Patrick Doyle lost at sea "? Was he a different man?
Yeah i was meaning to but then this went messy and it appeared i had posted on the wrong post :-[ I have no idea if he was a different man or not.
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I'm still pursuing information and have contacted National Archives to see what they have. Just waiting to hear what they will charge me for a search.
Out of curiosity, apart from the information submitted to the Board of Trade regarding his death, would there be any other official death registration? I have looked in the GRO records but nothing is coming up. Where would the death be registered - North Wales where he died, or Liverpool where he had lived?
Did you ever get a response from the National Archive re Logbook and Crew Agreement?
Find My Past have details of a Patrick Doyle died on board ROYAL CHARTER in 1859. I don't know if you have this. Third name down.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?datasetname=british+armed+forces+and+overseas+deaths+and+burials&sid=103&firstname=patrick&firstname_variants=true&lastname=doyle
SW
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Yes I got a reply from the National Archives. I will look up the details and post them asap.
Thank you