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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: davisd on Saturday 24 July 21 15:56 BST (UK)
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I'm working on a family named Ward - there are scads of them everywhere. But I'm wondering about various neighborhoods in London and whether some places might have been more middle class and others poorer. For example Marylebone - was it likely to have poor residents among the wealthier in the 18th century? Would chimney sweeps have been likely to live there for example? I'm finding quite a lot in the east end - Stepney, Bethnal Green, etc - where occupations seem to revolve around weaving and cloth manufacturing - working class etc. But were certain areas less likely to have poor or working class residents?
I'd be grateful for guidance, though I realise this is all subjective and variable anyway..
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Why not trawl the relevant census where you can see the occupations for yourself
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My ancestors were in Marylebone for at least the first half of the nineteenth century and were not wealthy. Servants, porters, and so on. My 5xgreat-grandmother was Elizabeth Ward, born approx 1784, married George Perfett in Marylebone in 1816, died in Marylebone in 1856.
I haven't been able to find any trace of either of them prior to their marriage. Too many Wards to be certain which family is mine. Have worked on a theory that George was from Portsmouth, but haven't been able to prove or disprove conclusively. Any connection with your Wards?
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Why not trawl the relevant census where you can see the occupations for yourself
These are all pre-census people as far as I know the first census was in 1841. Was there one in the 18th c?
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There were censuses before 1841. No all are extant. The Marylebone ones for 1821 & 1831 still exist but only show address and head of household. I think transcriptions can be viewed on
ancestry findmypast.
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My ancestors were in Marylebone for at least the first half of the nineteenth century and were not wealthy. Servants, porters, and so on. My 5xgreat-grandmother was Elizabeth Ward, born approx 1784, married George Perfett in Marylebone in 1816, died in Marylebone in 1856.
I haven't been able to find any trace of either of them prior to their marriage. Too many Wards to be certain which family is mine. Have worked on a theory that George was from Portsmouth, but haven't been able to prove or disprove conclusively. Any connection with your Wards?
I don't think there is a connection. I'm working on William Ward a rather well known convict who was transported to New South Wales in 1817. Most trees suggest he was the son of a William Ward (1775-1826) and Anne Hennell (1769-1850) who lived in Marylebone, but the Hennell family was a well known family of silversmiths and I am very dubious that a son from this couple would be a chimney sweep arrested for common theft. It's not impossible, but I am suspicious. My convict gr gr grandfather was born ca 1797 and there are about half a dozen in London at that date and I've narrowed it down to one other than the Marylebone fellow.
Thanks for your thoughts. I'm grateful for any guidance!
As you say there are any of them.
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Why not trawl the relevant census where you can see the occupations for yourself
These are all pre-census people as far as I know the first census was in 1841. Was there one in the 18th c?
I doubt that the social structure would change much during that time
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Booth's poverty maps
https://booth.Lse.ac.uk/map/14/-0.1303/51.5093/100/0
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Booth's poverty maps
https://booth.Lse.ac.uk/map/14/-0.1303/51.5093/100/0
That is a fantastic resource!
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That is a fantastic resource!
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I know!!
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That is a fantastic resource!
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I know!!
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Now the question remains for me what was the makeup of the population of the City of London (not covered in this excellent map) in the 18th and 19th centuries? Was it uniformly prosperous or poor - I'm still trying to ascertain the origins of William Ward the transported convict b about 1799. I'm working on examining all the possibilities for his origins.
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Manchester Square, the location of the theft, is in Marylebone. But perhaps you already know that, which is why you’re looking at that area.
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Manchester Square, the location of the theft, is in Marylebone. But perhaps you already know that, which is why you’re looking at that area.
Thank you, Yes I know the area and previous genealogical research has fixed on a William Ward b in 1799 to a couple William Ward and Anne Catherine Hennell in Marylebone. My problem is I wonder if in fact a chimney sweep would be likely to have lived in Marylebone as it seems more a middle class area and I was under the impression that it was that way even then. That couple seems to have been more prosperous than I would expect to have a chimney sweep as a son.
Perhaps I'm being overly scrupulous but I hate to misrepresent people.
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I’ve just looked up the baptism record for the above-mentioned William Ward with parents William and Ann Catherine. The record says they are from the parish of St.Mary le Bow. This church is in Cheapside, which is also where the record states their house was. Not at all in Marylebone. So not a reliable source.
Unfortunately, this doesn’t bring you any closer to knowing who his parents really were.
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I’ve just looked up the baptism record for the above-mentioned William Ward with parents William and Ann Catherine. The record says they are from the parish of St.Mary le Bow. This church is in Cheapside, which is also where the record states their house was. Not at all in Marylebone. So not a reliable source.
Unfortunately, this doesn’t bring you any closer to knowing who his parents really were.
In examining more documents I'm 99.9% positive that they were not his parents. In a will this William Senior is described as a Gentleman and Stock Broker. So I'm not further with finding a real link to his parents but I intend to slog on. Thank you!
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My ancestors were in Marylebone for at least the first half of the nineteenth century and were not wealthy. Servants, porters, and so on. My 5xgreat-grandmother was Elizabeth Ward, born approx 1784, married George Perfett in Marylebone in 1816, died in Marylebone in 1856.
I haven't been able to find any trace of either of them prior to their marriage. Too many Wards to be certain which family is mine. Have worked on a theory that George was from Portsmouth, but haven't been able to prove or disprove conclusively. Any connection with your Wards?
I am grateful for your reply. I've now spent considerable time working on this family and the neighbourhood of Marylebone in particular and believe I found the information I was looking for.
I also grateful for the advice from others on this thread. I learnt that the area wasn't at all monochromatic but had considerable poor and working class people living there and my ancestors were terribly poor living in the workhouse at times.
I've not come across Elizabeth in my search but if I do I will return to this topic. All good wishes.
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Dave, would you be okay with sharing some of your findings with us? I ask because I’m in contact with someone who is also searching this William Ward, and has come to a halt.
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Dave, would you be okay with sharing some of your findings with us? I ask because I’m in contact with someone who is also searching this William Ward, and has come to a halt.
William Ward who was transported to NSW in 1817 was a chimney sweep in London. He was arrested in Marylebone for stealing a shawl worth a couple of shillings. Researchers for years have claimed his parents to be a William and Catherine Ward of Marylebone. This couple was however very much middle class people and I have not been comfortable at all with that attribution.
My work so far suggests he was the son of John Ward (1765-1811) who died a pauper. Their son William was b 5 Jan 1800. This date isn't an exact match for William's suggested age of 16 or 17 or even 18 depending on the criminal records which vary. His father died a pauper in 1811, and I believe his mother who was nearly 50 when he was born, died a few months later in 1800. They had married in the parish church in 1795, a second marriage for both. That's what I've found and I think it entirely plausible that an orphan in Marylebone was a chimney sweep and struggling to survive was arrested for what today would be called petty theft. You may PM me if you want more.
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Thank you Dave. I had thought it likely that he was an orphan as I couldn’t find a record of anyone writing a petition, or plea, for him against his transportation.
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From what you have said I agree that wealthy Marylebone William is not yours. Have you tried tracing William through the censuses and possibly marriages etc to confirm that you are correct? Eliminating the wrong ones can often be as useful as finding the right ones.
Have you located all of his convict records at ‘the other end’? Do you have his Australian marriage and death certificates which may, depending on time and place (and knowledge of informant on d/c), give his parents names?
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FindMyPast Prison Ship (Hulk) Registers
William Ward; conviction date 4 Dec 1816; age 17;;Hulk Bellerephon, received from Newgate 4 Jan 1817; discharged 15 April 1817 Almorah New South Wales
Lloyds List 29 April 1817
DEAL (Kent) - 26th, Almorah, M'Kissock, sailed for New South Wales
Convict Records
https://convictrecords.com.au/convicts/ward/william/49811
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Can I clarify "Marylebone" as William's PoB? What's the source?
The record I checked has the birth in the Parish of St Mary le Bow at the house in Cheapside of William and Ann Catharine Ward. William born 9 March 1799, baptised 14 Apr 1799.
A nonconformist ceremony, Abraham Rees, Protestant Dissenting Minister officiating.
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Also spotted the baptism on 14 Apr 1799 of William John Ward, father William, a hosier and mother Sarah, place Norton Folgate. Christ Church, Spitalfields, Tower Hamlets.
What is the source of the 14 April 1799 date of birth on the convict record previously posted?
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The William Ward born in St.Mary le Bow is the one most sited on Ancestry trees, which is extremely unlikely. Marylebone instead of Mary le Bow; a middle class family; mentioned in his father’s will and left a chest of drawers by his aunt in 1836.
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The date 14th April 1799 is interesting. I’d previously ignored that as it’s the date of the Cheapside baptism.
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We need Hamish Slade who added that information to the records in 2016.
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LilyM - don't know how many times I've trawled thru' this thread and you post re Mary-le-Bow didn't register - apologies.
I've pencilled in chasing the William John Ward, parents William/Sarah to eliminate him from my enquiries.
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Thank you 🙂 Good luck with looking for that one.
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Spotted a possible candidate.
A William John Ward married a Sarah Gardner at St. Bartholomew the Great, City of London, 22 Oct 1828 (witnesses don't help). The location is very close to Norton Folgate.
Not going to pursue further!
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From what you have said I agree that wealthy Marylebone William is not yours. Have you tried tracing William through the censuses and possibly marriages etc to confirm that you are correct? Eliminating the wrong ones can often be as useful as finding the right ones.
Have you located all of his convict records at ‘the other end’? Do you have his Australian marriage and death certificates which may, depending on time and place (and knowledge of informant on d/c), give his parents names?
I have checked all the Australian records normally available including his "permission to marry" but have not seen the wedding record itself. I'm not sure that Australian records of 1837 would necessarily have included parents' names - I know English records didn't need to be listed. That would of course simplify everything!
The birth and baptism are available on "English Select Births and Christenings 1538-1875" at St Mary Marylebone.
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Manchester Square, the location of the theft, is in Marylebone. But perhaps you already know that, which is why you’re looking at that area.
While I'm still working on the same lines, I have a question about another neighbourhood these folks lived in - Old Bailey. Here on a burial notice is a notation Old Bailey in Bay. I note other are listed as Workhouse in Chick (Chicks Lane) and Cow Lane in Bay but I can't quite work out the "in Bay" bit - assuming it's a street location or something. Anyone have ideas?
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Chick and Bay aren’t neighbourhoods. My guess would be that they refer to the specific areas in the churchyard where the burials took place.
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Chick and Bay aren’t neighbourhoods. My guess would be that they refer to the specific areas in the churchyard where the burials took place.
Chick refers, I thought to the Workhouse in Chick Lane. I can't quite understand Bay in the same context. Perhaps there was a Chick Lane portion of the cemetery?
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I’ve just found this.
'St Sepulchre had a large population, and a high death rate, so like most city churches had difficulties with finding burial places. The space immediately around many churches, including St Sep. was crowded in with development, and noticeably higher than the church where it was still open ground, due to the number of burials. The church authorities established a separate burial ground in Chick Lane, and the majority of burials from the mid-18th century took place there, thus 'Chick' or 'The Chick'. Some burials (generally though there is no totally consistent pattern) the better off were buried in the Bay, ground which was still available adjacent to the church. The really well-off (or church officials like parish clerks, beadles etc) might be buried in the church itself, thus occasional entries such as 'buried in the left ile' - ile is what is now spelled aisle.'
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I’ve just found this.
'St Sepulchre had a large population, and a high death rate, so like most city churches had difficulties with finding burial places. The space immediately around many churches, including St Sep. was crowded in with development, and noticeably higher than the church where it was still open ground, due to the number of burials. The church authorities established a separate burial ground in Chick Lane, and the majority of burials from the mid-18th century took place there, thus 'Chick' or 'The Chick'. Some burials (generally though there is no totally consistent pattern) the better off were buried in the Bay, ground which was still available adjacent to the church. The really well-off (or church officials like parish clerks, beadles etc) might be buried in the church itself, thus occasional entries such as 'buried in the left ile' - ile is what is now spelled aisle.'
I've been searching for this kind of information - many thanks - that's most helpful!
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I’ve just found this.
'St Sepulchre had a large population, and a high death rate, so like most city churches had difficulties with finding burial places. The space immediately around many churches, including St Sep. was crowded in with development, and noticeably higher than the church where it was still open ground, due to the number of burials. The church authorities established a separate burial ground in Chick Lane, and the majority of burials from the mid-18th century took place there, thus 'Chick' or 'The Chick'. Some burials (generally though there is no totally consistent pattern) the better off were buried in the Bay, ground which was still available adjacent to the church. The really well-off (or church officials like parish clerks, beadles etc) might be buried in the church itself, thus occasional entries such as 'buried in the left ile' - ile is what is now spelled aisle.'
Is it possible that people who sere not of the parish could be buried there?
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Dave, would you be okay with sharing some of your findings with us? I ask because I’m in contact with someone who is also searching this William Ward, and has come to a halt.
My pleasure. I might point out to you that based on Booth's Poverty Map the narrow street where the Ward's lived - 'Gees Court' - is noted as a place where the people were 'Lowest Class, Vicious - semi-criminal' So that's a huge clue that I have the right family only a couple of blocks from Manchester Square.
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If he was 83 when his death was registered on 16 February 1876, he would have been born c. 1792 ???
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If he was 83 when his death was registered on 16 February 1876, he would have been born c. 1792 ???
His age is all over the place. At his trial in 1816 it says he was already 18 but on the Prison hulk ship on 4 January 1817 he was listed as 17. On his marriage document in NSW in 1837 he's listed as 37. The birth date I presently adhere to is 5 January 1800. I think the Pioneer Register is simply incorrect.
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I wasn't referring to the Pioneer Register. His death record states age 83.
WARD WILLIAM 5250/1876 AGE 83 YEARS DIED BRISBANE WATER
Also the death notices in the newspapers
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13370901
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162648019
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/70589653
His wife and children should have known his age, I suppose. ???
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His convict record (URL) at reply #20 puts his age at 76 at death. What would be the source of updating this record?
The Old Bailey trial record is available on line and gives his age as 17.
Re. ages, reply #17 puts his mother as "nearly 50" when he was born. "How near was "nearly"?
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His convict record (URL at reply #20) can be edited by anyone who is registered (free) or has a Google or Facebook account.
I think the person who edited his DoB has assumed that William was the son of William Ward and Anne Catherine Hennell baptised at the Old Jewry Church in 1799, an has ignored the age stated in his death certificate and newspaper notices.
Regarding the Old Bailey record, could he have said he didn't know his age because he was an orphan and his age was assumed?
I understand that a 17 year old boy and a 24 year old man would have looked different, but I also think that a 76 year old man wouldn't have looked like a 83 year old man. Maybe the truth is somewhere in between these ages?
I'm also interested in the 'nearly 50' supposed mother, what was her name?
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Thanks for clarifying his "convict record" age.
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See newspaper snippets that appeared 26 and 29 Sep 1816 - relating to Old Bailey Sessions that began 18 Sep. Trial held Wed 25th.
The address "Wells St, Oxford Road" is in the Mary-le-Bone area. "Gee's Court" appears sometimes as "Gee's Court, Oxford Road". Looked "interesting" given name, age and locale.
Both say "convicted" so expected to find the case at Old Bailey on line - but drew a blank under name. However, the Old Bailey site allows searches under a range of keys - and searching for "tilt cloth" threw up Henry Moore!!
https://www.dhi.ac.uk/san/ob/1810s/181609180096.gif
He has 2 entries under FindMyPast. I think it says the "tilt cloth" was valued at 40s.
Initially, it looked a possible lead - somewhat disappointed.
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Yes, I saw that newspaper article and was wondering where did the 'London Chimney Sweep' information came from? Is there another source besides 'Contributed by State Library of Queensland on 30th August 2011' in the convict record?
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FindMyPast has a record of his arrival - under "Calling" it states "Chimney Sweep". Age is 18.
Another record has him as "labourer"
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Thanks hanes teulu :)
If he was 17 on 4 Dec 1816 (trial) and transported aged 18 on 26 April 29 March 1817, and assuming these entries are correct, he must have been born between 5 December and 26 April, 29 March and perhaps that's why researchers think he was William Ward, born 9 March and baptised 14 April 1799 at the Old Jewry Church.
If his parents (William and Ann Catherine nee Hennell) lived at Gee's Court, maybe they're not the wealthy couple that davisd think was related to the Hennell blacksmiths? All I coudl find is that they were married in 1795 in Edmonton, London, according to one transcript on FamilySearch. Is this correct (Ancestry, FindMyPast)? And was William the only son?
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Trade or Calling
Do and Chimney Sweeper
(Do - dittoed from above, Servant)
https://libraries.tas.gov.au/Digital/CON13-1-1/CON13-1-1P102
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he may have travelled to Sydney as a temporary crew member on the Lord Liverpool, arriving in Sydney in October 1824.
Among other similar stuff, Application of William Whard of Brisbane Water for permission to purchase land
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSKS-MKK7
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Thanks jonwarm. 'Whard' is a surprise ::)
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Yes it is, I think generally in those land records he is Ward.
Interesting that William Ward had a companion when the crime was committed, I guess he got clean away.
Coincidentally on the same day at Old Bailey, another Ward was tried for a Marylebone crime.
Robert Ward, 62, sentenced to death (he was later reprieved)
This crime happened just a week after William was nabbed, not sure of the exact location but Wellbeck Street is quite close to Duke Street/Manchester Square.
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/record/t18161204-8?text=ward
Who knows, maybe Robert was a relation!
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Just in case there is anything else, and it may be a folorn hope, but there are the Old Bailey records up to 1834 held at the London Archives. Obviously difficult to search if you are in Australia!
Research Guides
https://www.thelondonarchives.org/your-research/research-guides
For example
Research guide 42 - My ancestor was a convict
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Yes it is, I think generally in those land records he is Ward.
Interesting that William Ward had a companion when the crime was committed, I guess he got clean away.
Coincidentally on the same day at Old Bailey, another Ward was tried for a Marylebone crime.
Robert Ward, 62, sentenced to death (he was later reprieved)
This crime happened just a week after William was nabbed, not sure of the exact location but Wellbeck Street is quite close to Duke Street/Manchester Square.
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/record/t18161204-8?text=ward
Who knows, maybe Robert was a relation!
I wondered same - nothing on Old Bailey trial record or FindMyPast prison records that might help.
Old Bailey - https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/search