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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: paganmogwai on Sunday 04 July 21 16:49 BST (UK)
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Wondered if anyone has any experience of this? A man I am tracing in one of my trees seems to completely vanish from the record after 1909, yet his wife and children are easy enough to track, and I have marriage and death certs for all except one of them. On the 1911 census she seems to be living with a man of a different name, for whom I cannot find any records prior to 1910. In 1920 they had a child together who was given as a middle name the surname of the first man. Later records show the wife using each surname at different times. I'm inclined to think they are the same man and for some reason he started using a different name between 1909 and 1910. I imagine if you only start living under an assumed name if you were hiding from someone or something. I'd be very interested to hear if anyone else has found anything similar.
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Came across something similar once
There was an irish connection and the man inversed first and middle names and used wifes surname .
Can you give the details of when the family used which names .
Its intriguing
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Hi Brigid, yes its a real mystery. This is what I have so far that I can verify:
Henry James HUMPHREY born 1880 (from Tonbridge in Kent) married Sophia DAVIS born 1882 (from Southampton in Hampshire) in Southampton in 1901.
They had 4 children: Lewis Henry 1901-1902, Hilda Sophia 1904-1979, Lilian Kate 1906-probably 1925 and Elsie Annie 1909-1945. I have no trace at all of Henry after that.
On the 1911 census I have Sophia in Liverpool with her three daughters living with a man named John James GLEN born approx 1886. Her age is incorrect as is her place of birth (which looks to have been filled in by a different hand) but the daughters' ages are correct.
I have a Royal Naval Reserve record for James Glen which gives his wife Sophia as next of kin. There are various addresses on the record as it runs for a few years, one in Liverpool, the others in Newcastle upon Tyne and district. Those addresses tally with electoral rolls for James and Sophia Glen in the 1920's.
There are three children registered as being born to James and Sophia Glen:
Doris Humphrey Glen b. 1920, Sidney John Glen 1922-1990 and Norman Glen 1926-1979. thge addresses given all tally with electoral rolls and the naval record.
I have a death cert for a Lilian Kate Glen in Newcastle in 1925 which states she was the daughter of James Glen and her death was registered by her mother S. Glen. The address given matches both the electoral roll and the naval record.
I have a death cert for James Glen in 1933, again the address matches with the electoral roll entry for James and Sophia Glen.
Now, of the children only four married. On their marriage certs they gave the father's name as listed here:
Hilda married in 1945 as Hilda Humphreys (sic) and said her father was Henry Humphreys (sic) deceased.
Elsie married in 1930 as Elsie Glen and said her father was John Glen.
Doris married in 1939 as Doris Glen and said her father was John Glen deceased.
Norman married in 1950 and said his father was John Glen deceased.
Sophia died in 1954 at her daughter Hilda's home in Blackpool, Lancashire and was described as Sophia Humphreys, widow of Henry Humphreys.
Doris's marriage in 1939 was witnessed by Elsie and her husband (who were parents to my adoptive Dad)
On the 1939 register Sophia is using the name Humphreys and living in Hendon with her son Norman Glen, just a few streets away from Hilda and her family and also from Elsie and her family.
Both Henry James Humphrey and James Glen are described as ships fireman or marine fireman on various birth certs.
The dates of birth given on the 1939 register for Sophia, Hilda, Elsie, Doris and Norman all match the various birth certs.
I accept I'll probably never ever know what happened but its a big mystery!
Just today I decided to add James Glen on my Ancestry tree as a separate spouse to Sophia Davis just to see if it would throw up any hints etc that I might have missed. Not a thing. It did throw up 11 Ancestry hints....... all of which are about Henry James Humphrey apart from the 1911 census.
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One of my ancestors was illegitimate and throughout his life he alternated between his mother's maiden surname and her later husband's surname - her later husband appears to have actually been his father being recorded as such in the parish baptism records - this was pre birth registration.
Throughout his numerous children's baptisms he changed from one surname to the other several times with the parish record writer sometimes writing alias against both surnames. His burial parish record records his surname as that of the father recorded as his father on his baptism record but has the other name recorded also in brackets as alias.
It took me ages to unravel what was going on and it was only the lateral thinking of a distant cousin I was collaborating with that resolved it - he 'found' the burial alias comment that I'd overlooked as recorded on the line below in the original parish records but not in the transcribed version that I'd used. The children with the different surnames sometime kept to what they were baptised under, sometimes not! Right tangled web.
We didn't get birth certificates for any of the children apart from my ancestor and my cousin his ancestor, both using my surname which my cousin's mother also used. So am I one surname or the other?
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I found a mother and child who "vanished" when the son was very young. Fortunately I had the son's two Christian names, and the mother's first name, and both came from the same small place in Wales. After a LOT of searching, and with wonderful help from a now departed researcher, we found the pair with a new male, under the very original name of "Smith" in another part of the country. We couldn't find Mr Smith before then, either.
Long story cut short, they seem to have gone off with him, he left his wife and family, and they stayed together until his death. The together had another child, and after "Mr Smith" died, when he reverted to his original surname, which his younger son adopted..... and his "wife"s older child, the actual relative I was seeking, resumed an alternation between his mother's original surname, and the surname of her original partner, almost for the rest of his life. (We've never been able to find an actual marriage between his Mum and that partner ).
It happens!
It's marvellous what you manage to find them and prove it, though.
Took us years, but it shows - never give up!
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It took me ages to unravel what was going on and it was only the lateral thinking of a distant cousin I was collaborating with that resolved it - he 'found' the burial alias comment that I'd overlooked as recorded on the line below in the original parish records but not in the transcribed version that I'd used.
Oh that's a useful tip, I'll keep that kind of thing in mind. I keep thinking there's some kind of a great story there but I'll likely never know.
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Hi
As you say,concealment is often the motivation for a name change but there are other possibilities too.
How about that Henry, aged bout 30 and married to Sophia, discovered a truth about his own birth and parents.
That the surname GLENN was indeed more truly his name.
How much research have you made into his parents and his early life?
Sue
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Four children born to Sophia in 1901, 1904, 1906, 1909, then nothing until three children also born to Sophia in 1920, 1922 and 1926. Is that correct?
What was Henry HUMPHREY's occupation when he married?
Did Henry sign his full name on the marriage cert and if so have you compared the 'James' with John's signature on the 1911 census? He uses a distinctive 'J'.
Debra :)
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What was Henry HUMPHREY's occupation when he married?
I see that he was in the ASC until 1903 when discharged medically unfit.
Debra :)
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My ancestor Henry Plume and his wife Frances (nee Lyons) both changed their first names for the 1911 Census to Charles John and Susan Jane. Their addresses changed with each census.
I managed to trace them through Henry's occupation (consistent with 1891, 1901 and 1911 census) and their son Lewis Samuel Plume who used both sets of names during his life.
I have no idea why they did this - I just wonder if they were in debt.
Jackie
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A couple of observations here.
1911 census
GLEN states married 7 years
The marriage of Sophia to Henry HUMPHREY was 1901= 9/10 years prior to census.
If GLEN, (who states born 1886/7) were the father of Lewis, the child of the union referred to in the census as deceased, he would have been 14 or 15 at the child's conception.
I see a 1910 record on Ancestry which mentions seaman James GLEN born 1887.It has his signature. I do not know if it is the same man as in your case, but the signature does not match the one at the foot of the 1911 page IMO.
Sue
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A couple of observations here.
1911 census
GLEN states married 7 years
The marriage of Sophia to Henry HUMPHREY was 1901= 9/10 years prior to census.
If GLEN, (who states born 1886/7) were the father of Lewis, the child of the union referred to in the census as deceased, he would have been 14 or 15 at the child's conception.
I see a 1910 record on Ancestry which mentions seaman James GLEN born 1887.It has his signature. I do not know if it is the same man as in your case, but the signature does not match the one at the foot of the 1911 page IMO.
Sue
Hi Sue,
Yes I agree about the signature. I have that naval record from Ancestry and in it James GLEN gives his DOB as June 1887 and his parents as James and Sarah and says he was b in Newcastle upon Tyne. I've not as yet found any records to confirm that. I am suspicious that Henry James altered his details if he decided to assume the name James Glen. Looking at his naval file there I don't think he was actually in Liverpool the night the 1911 census was taken which makes me wonder of Sophia filled it in. So many questions and sadly all contact with the branch of Dad's family ceased in 1945 so there's no one I can even ask. Thanks.
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My ancestor Henry Plume and his wife Frances (nee Lyons) both changed their first names for the 1911 Census to Charles John and Susan Jane. Their addresses changed with each census.
I managed to trace them through Henry's occupation (consistent with 1891, 1901 and 1911 census) and their son Lewis Samuel Plume who used both sets of names during his life.
I have no idea why they did this - I just wonder if they were in debt.
Jackie
Hi Jackie - Debt!! I hadn't thought about that possibility. The drama queen in me was thinking of something more sinister tbh.... Thanks for that.
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I found a mother and child who "vanished" when the son was very young. Fortunately I had the son's two Christian names, and the mother's first name, and both came from the same small place in Wales. After a LOT of searching, and with wonderful help from a now departed researcher, we found the pair with a new male, under the very original name of "Smith" in another part of the country. We couldn't find Mr Smith before then, either.
Long story cut short, they seem to have gone off with him, he left his wife and family, and they stayed together until his death. The together had another child, and after "Mr Smith" died, when he reverted to his original surname, which his younger son adopted..... and his "wife"s older child, the actual relative I was seeking, resumed an alternation between his mother's original surname, and the surname of her original partner, almost for the rest of his life. (We've never been able to find an actual marriage between his Mum and that partner ).
It happens!
It's marvellous what you manage to find them and prove it, though.
Took us years, but it shows - never give up!
There's hope for me yet so! Thanks.
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Hi
As you say,concealment is often the motivation for a name change but there are other possibilities too.
How about that Henry, aged bout 30 and married to Sophia, discovered a truth about his own birth and parents.
That the surname GLENN was indeed more truly his name.
How much research have you made into his parents and his early life?
Sue
Hi Sue, I have his birth cert and I know what happened to his parents - a very tragic story, his father was killed in an explosion at a powder mill in Tonbridge in 1885, his mother relocated by 1891 to near Hounslow (it seems her mother may have come from there) later remarried and had more children with her second husband. I've tracked them through the 1891, 1901 and 1911 censuses and have relevant birth marriage and death entries for all, plus some of them are on the 1939 Register. But of Henry James, no trace at all. Thanks.
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Hi
In reply#7 Debra has asked a couple of questions.
Can you help?
Sue
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Did Henry sign his full name on the marriage cert and if so have you compared the 'James' with John's signature on the 1911 census? He uses a distinctive 'J'.
You should also be able to tell from the signature on the marriage cert if Sophia filled out the 1911 census.
There is a child missing.
Debra :)
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Four children born to Sophia in 1901, 1904, 1906, 1909, then nothing until three children also born to Sophia in 1920, 1922 and 1926. Is that correct?
What was Henry HUMPHREY's occupation when he married?
Did Henry sign his full name on the marriage cert and if so have you compared the 'James' with John's signature on the 1911 census? He uses a distinctive 'J'.
Debra :)
Hi Debra, I made a typo on my earlier post, the first child was born in 1902, but yes those are the birth dates of the children. From James GLEN's naval record, he seems to have been at sea most of the war which would explain the gap in the children's birth years. As for the marriage cert, I paid for a certified copy from the GRO but its all completed in the same hand, so I've no idea. He signed it H.J. Humphrey but its not his handwriting. Is it possible to get a copy of the actual cert do you know? Thanks.
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Did Henry sign his full name on the marriage cert and if so have you compared the 'James' with John's signature on the 1911 census? He uses a distinctive 'J'.
You should also be able to tell from the signature on the marriage cert if Sophia filled out the 1911 census.
There is a child missing.
Debra :)
Hi Debra, yes I'm curious about that apparent missing child also. I've been trawling for a birth entry that might match up but nothing yet. Only a few more months until the 1921 census is released so maybe that will tell me ;) Thanks.
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Henry's attestation for ASC is on FindMyPast which has his signature.
Henry also has a birthmark on shoulder (doesn't say which one) and tattoo on left forearm. He's 5ft 5 in (age 19 so might grow), has fair complexion, brown hair and blue eyes, weighs 115 lb, chest min 33 in, max 35 in.
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Just realised I made a typo in my long post earlier, Doris gave her father's name as James GLEN deceased when she married in 1939, not John.
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Henry's attestation for ASC is on FindMyPast which has his signature.
Henry also has a birthmark on shoulder (doesn't say which one) and tattoo on left forearm. He's 5ft 5 in (age 19 so might grow), has fair complexion, brown hair and blue eyes, weighs 115 lb, chest min 33 in, max 35 in.
Hi, yes I have that too. The naval record I have for James says he has tattoos on both arms (its a few years later) but of course that wouldn't be very unusual. I am not great on analysing handwriting but it might be a different hand from the 1911 census. Thanks.
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Henry's attestation for ASC is on FindMyPast which has his signature.
Henry also has a birthmark on shoulder (doesn't say which one) and tattoo on left forearm. He's 5ft 5 in (age 19 so might grow), has fair complexion, brown hair and blue eyes, weighs 115 lb, chest min 33 in, max 35 in.
Hi, yes I have that too. The naval record I have for James says he has tattoos on both arms (its a few years later) but of course that wouldn't be very unusual. I am not great on analysing handwriting but it might be a different hand from the 1911 census. Thanks.
Yes you can easily add a tattoo.
Does the naval record give height and eye colour?
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I have some instances of name changes in my ex's tree.
He has an Irish branch, who started off as McCarthy. His great grandfather's birth was registered as McCarthy in 1866 but on 1871 census they are recorded as Carter. I was able to verify this as some of their children, including one who was blind, so easier to identify, stayed as McCarthy and Charles' parents reverted to McCarthy on their death certs.
I don't know WHY they changed their names, but in 1868 there was a Fenian (fore runners of the IRA) attempt to free a prisoner which involved an explosion near the prison resulting in the deaths of some bystanders. Public anti-Irish sentiment was running high.
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Does the naval record give height and eye colour?
5 ft 3 ¾ in. He might need to have shrunk! Hazel eyes.
Arms were indeed covered in tattoos!
Is he the James Glen born 1887 with a CR10 card in the British merchant seamen records (1918) :-\
They usually have a photo (not of the arms though!)
Baptisms on ancestry of Louis Henry and Hilda Sophia at Bedfont.
Father Henry James in ASC, then Labourer.
What was he up to in Southampton in 1909?
If that is the correct James Glen of the Menes in the Liverpool crew list in 1910, and age and birthplace suggest it ought to be, then his previous ship was the Teutonic. Which was then running from Southampton to New York.
So he could have met Sophia in Southampton.
During 1911 the Teutonic was switched to Liverpool - Montreal, and James Glen joined the crew in September!
Earlier that year he was on the Lackawanna, from 4 January to 13 February.
Discharged at Birkenhead??
Next engagement in June (Cedric to New York)
So he ought to have been at home for the 1911 census? As he apparently is, of course.
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I have a name change in my tree.
My gt gt grandfather was married twice, First wife dies second wife is still alive when he starts a family with my gt gt grandmother and they never marry.
Would not have been difficult to trace as he dropped his surname and his middle name became the surname and so his children's surname and their descendants were technically incorrect.
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I have a death cert for James Glen in 1933, again the address matches with the electoral roll entry for James and Sophia Glen.
1932 at 16 Elswick Street, Newcastle.
1933 at 119 Mill Lane
Death
Dec 1933 Newcastle upon Tyne 10b 33
Glen, James
age 46
He was buried at Elswick Cemetery, 1 January 1934.
Unfortunately we can't see the burial register on FamilySearch.
We can though see the graves register
Among those buried in the same grave is Lillian Kate, 5 January 1925.
Thanks to Boo for her wonderful Elswick Cemetery graves section finder spreadsheet.
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I have a death cert for James Glen in 1933, again the address matches with the electoral roll entry for James and Sophia Glen.
1932 at 16 Elswick Street, Newcastle.
1933 at 119 Mill Lane
Death
Dec 1933 Newcastle upon Tyne 10b 33
Glen, James
age 46
He was buried at Elswick Cemetery, 1 January 1934.
Unfortunately we can't see the burial register on FamilySearch.
We can though see the graves register
Among those buried in the same grave is Lillian Kate, 5 January 1925.
Thanks to Boo for her wonderful Elswick Cemetery graves section finder spreadsheet.
Oh Jon wow (and Boo!) how and where did you find this? Thank you!
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Does the naval record give height and eye colour?
5 ft 3 ¾ in. He might need to have shrunk! Hazel eyes.
Arms were indeed covered in tattoos!
Is he the James Glen born 1887 with a CR10 card in the British merchant seamen records (1918) :-\
They usually have a photo (not of the arms though!)
Baptisms on ancestry of Louis Henry and Hilda Sophia at Bedfont.
Father Henry James in ASC, then Labourer.
What was he up to in Southampton in 1909?
If that is the correct James Glen of the Menes in the Liverpool crew list in 1910, and age and birthplace suggest it ought to be, then his previous ship was the Teutonic. Which was then running from Southampton to New York.
So he could have met Sophia in Southampton.
During 1911 the Teutonic was switched to Liverpool - Montreal, and James Glen joined the crew in September!
Earlier that year he was on the Lackawanna, from 4 January to 13 February.
Discharged at Birkenhead??
Next engagement in June (Cedric to New York)
So he ought to have been at home for the 1911 census? As he apparently is, of course.
Hi Jon, on Elsie's birth cert in 1909 Henry James occupation is given as ships fireman. Same as James on most other records. There were a lot of ships firemen of course :)
I just wonder if they were 2 different men then 1. what happened to Henry? and 2. Why did Sophia revert to using Henry's surname after James' death? No way of knowing of course but still......
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Hi
Sadly, Elswick burial registers only from 1937 on FamilySearch. They do have an index of consecrated burials, featuring James, and it gives the references for both the burial and graves registers. Plus date of burial. If you are registered with FamilySearch (free) and logged in, it is here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-J3D4-WH64
The graves register is here, it's not that brilliant to look at, I'm afraid.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1L-4344-6
But nice to know where James and Lillian Kate are buried, and when, and location of grave.
Section O grave 222
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Jon thank you so much for that. It is strangely nice to know their burial place.
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Hi Jon, on Elsie's birth cert in 1909 Henry James occupation is given as ships fireman. Same as James on most other records. There were a lot of ships firemen of course :)
I just wonder if they were 2 different men then 1. what happened to Henry? and 2. Why did Sophia revert to using Henry's surname after James' death? No way of knowing of course but still......
Because if we assume two men, there was not a marriage to GLEN and HUMPHREY was her legal name.
Sue
ADDING further for your consideration, why would anyone change their details from their original identity so to appear to be the father of a child born in 1902 (when aged 15.)
If you were to make false identity details, surely you would make it a bit more plausible. ::)
Sue
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Hi Jon, on Elsie's birth cert in 1909 Henry James occupation is given as ships fireman. Same as James on most other records. There were a lot of ships firemen of course :)
I just wonder if they were 2 different men then 1. what happened to Henry? and 2. Why did Sophia revert to using Henry's surname after James' death? No way of knowing of course but still......
Because if we assume two men, there was not a marriage to GLEN and HUMPHREY was her legal name.
Sue
ADDING further for your consideration, why would anyone change their details from their original identity so to appear to be the father of a child born in 1902 (when aged 15.)
If you were to make false identity details, surely you would make it a bit more plausible. ::)
Sue
Hi Sue, yeah I've searched and searched but not found any marriage between GLEN and HUMPHREY that works time wise. I agree if you were using false identity details you would presumably try to be more plausible, but of course by the time I first see James GLEN linked to Sophia in 1911, the first child had been dead for 8 years so maybe that didn't factor in the thinking. The fact that the first child registered to James and Sophia GLEN was named Doris Humphrey GLEN (b.1920) and on the birth cert Sophia gives her details as Sophia GLEN formerly HUMPHREY strikes me as odd. why would James be willing to have Henry's surname given to his own child even if as a middle name? Its all so odd. Thanks.
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I suggest you request one of the helpers here to post a snip of Henry John HUMPHREY's signature from his attestation document (which has been mentioned, but I cannot see- or I would do it).
I am pretty sure the signature on the 1911 is James GLEN's, own hand not Sophia's.
A comparison of the two sets of writing may help. There are some experienced "eyes" here ;D
Sue
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I suggest you request one of the helpers here to post a snip of Henry John HUMPHREY's signature from his attestation document (which has been mentioned, but I cannot see- or I would do it).
I am pretty sure the signature on the 1911 is James GLEN's, own hand not Sophia's.
A comparison of the two sets of writing may help. There are some experienced "eyes" here ;D
Sue
here it is
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Hi Lizzie,
Well I would say there is almost no similarity between the 1911 and the signature you have kindly posted.
What do you think?
Sue
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I'm no expert, but I would agree with you
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I see a 1910 record on Ancestry which mentions seaman James GLEN born 1887. It has his signature. I do not know if it is the same man as in your case, but the signature does not match the one at the foot of the 1911 page IMO.
I'd also agree with Sue about that. James Glen on the Menes seems to be a trimmer. He does match the details on the Royal Naval Reserve record for James, born 1887 in Newcastle on Tyne
It's packed with info, and can be downloaded for free!
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8537972
I don't think any such James Glen has been found, so he might be a reinvention of somebody!
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James Glen was doing training for the RNR, 15.2.11 to 31.5.11
Devonport Depot?
& "Carnarvon"? :-\
That began two days after he was discharged from the Lackawanna.
They had to do three months training on board HM ship.
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James Glen was doing training for the RNR, 15.2.11 to 31.5.11
Devonport Depot?
& "Carnarvon"? :-\
Here he is!
1911
James Glen, 23, born Newcastle, Provisional Stoker
On HMS Carnarvon, at anchor in Torbay
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW9H-8QP
He wasn't in Liverpool!
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Pretty sure that is him on the Menes in 1910, in the Liverpool crew lists.
With signature.
Note that the FamilySearch transcription of the 1911 entry leaves a bit to be desired!
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Hi Lizzie,
Well I would say there is almost no similarity between the 1911 and the signature you have kindly posted.
What do you think?
Sue
Hi Sue and Lizzie, thanks so much for doing this. I'm a total novice with handwriting but yes they do look different. Looks like they may have been two different men after all. One thing I do know from my Dad's memories is that as far as Elsie was concerned, her father was John GLEN who had been a ships fireman and that they were from the north-east of England. It seems so sad that she may never have been told the truth. Families, eh? Thanks again.
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James Glen was doing training for the RNR, 15.2.11 to 31.5.11
Devonport Depot?
& "Carnarvon"? :-\
Here he is!
1911
James Glen, 23, born Newcastle, Provisional Stoker
On HMS Carnarvon, at anchor in Torbay
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW9H-8QP
He wasn't in Liverpool!
Hi Jon, oh you are scaringly good at this ;D I'm playing catch up here. Ok so if he wasn't in Liverpool then did Sophia complete the 1911 census form I wonder? And if he wasn't in Liverpool she shouldn't have listed him on it should she?
I have that RNR record from TNA which is very good. The addresses given throughout it all tally so its definitely the 'right' James GLEN. This story is just more intriguing the more I go on. Thank you :)
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It seems that she did, unless someone did it for her.
The first entry, or much of it, seems to have been written in pencil first, and then overwritten. Which may not mean anything.
But, if Sophia got a bit confused doing this, it might explain why it says JJ was born Southampton, when that is her birthplace!
Then there is still the other question about the number of children. Four living, when we only know of three.
A very complicated affair, and sorting the 1911 census for the family has been a puzzle in itself!
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Pretty sure that is him on the Menes in 1910, in the Liverpool crew lists.
With signature.
Note that the FamilySearch transcription of the 1911 entry leaves a bit to be desired!
Just saw this now Jon. Yes I'd say that's him. The address given is 45 Eldon Place which, if that was a Liverpool address, is only a few minutes walk away from the address on the 1911 census. I've attached his signature. Thanks.
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Attaching here the signature I have for James GLEN with the word James so that you can compare it to the James part of Henry HUMPHREY's signature.
I have looked at a list of White Star Line ships and cannot see "Carnarvon" listed though the 1911 description of James GLENN's employment says White Star Line.
Whoever filled out the form for the 1911, they could not spell Elsie!
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MMmmm...
Now, this might be interesting or not.
For those that can see the 1911.
Image 686 is the Glen family.
Click back to image 682, the Fitzgerald family.
Make a close comparative study of the hand writing, particularly words such as daughter and Ship.
Any comments?
A helpful neighbour completing forms or my imagination ::)
Sue
ADDING
Look at the writing for John FITZGERALD ;D
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And may I add to Sue's thoughts ...
At Line 1, it seems someone has written in pencil so that the person with the ink pen can write over it, particularly Glen in column 1, and Head in column 2.
The handwriting at 686 is similar hand to 682.
The handwriting in pencil at 687 is likely from the enumerator, it is similar to 683, 685, 689 etc. It is NOT matching up to the even numbered images which of course are for the householder to compete. :) so I think Mr Fitzgerald at 18/2 Burlington St has helped 18/6 fill out their forms, there's only Mr Flannery at 18/4 separating them.
JM
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Hi JM.
Yes. I think we may be onto something here.
We have an illiterate Sophie at home with the children while her "husband" is on his ship on census night.
The kind person Fitzgerald next door but one, completes her required form for her and even extends his/her kindness to writing GLEN's signature.
Sophie is keen to observe propriety and chooses to have her "husband" listed as present at home lest her children status is cast into doubt.
GLEN would not be he first person to be found in 2 places on census night!
A good story?
Sue ;D
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Yes, to me it is a plausible explanation, particularly the mis-spelling for Elsie. As an aside, I sometimes ponder if the babies born in this current decade would be able to read any handwritten documents when they complete their school education and matriculate, ready for further education. I think they may be able to read printed text, but perhaps won't have any skills for reading the historic records from even the late 20th Century.
JM
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MMmmm...
Now, this might be interesting or not.
For those that can see the 1911.
Image 686 is the Glen family.
Click back to image 682, the Fitzgerald family.
Make a close comparative study of the hand writing, particularly words such as daughter and Ship.
Any comments?
A helpful neighbour completing forms or my imagination ::)
Sue
ADDING
Look at the writing for John FITZGERALD ;D
Hi Sue. OH WOW!!!!! You've definitely hit on something there, its very distinctive handwriting, looks like the same ink too. Also the upper case G in George and Glen. That looks very much to me like someone else filled in the form for Sophia, for whatever reason.
They are definitely the most intriguing family I'm tracing, and also the hardest to find :) ;D
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Yes, to me it is a plausible explanation, particularly the mis-spelling for Elsie. As an aside, I sometimes ponder if the babies born in this current decade would be able to read any handwritten documents when they complete their school education and matriculate, ready for further education. I think they may be able to read printed text, but perhaps won't have any skills for reading the historic records from even the late 20th Century.
JM
Hi JM, yes I'd wonder that myself .Thanks.
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Hi JM.
Yes. I think we may be onto something here.
We have an illiterate Sophie at home with the children while her "husband" is on his ship on census night.
The kind person Fitzgerald next door but one, completes her required form for her and even extends his/her kindness to writing GLEN's signature.
Sophie is keen to observe propriety and chooses to have her "husband" listed as present at home lest her children status is cast into doubt.
GLEN would not be he first person to be found in 2 places on census night!
A good story?
Sue ;D
Hi Sue, oh its turning into a great story. Its the first time I've run into issues with a census return, all the help here has been great. Thanks.
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It means you can discount the census signature in the comparisons you are making.
But I still think there is a lot of difference between the signatures of James GLEN signing on to 'Mendes'
And Henry HUMPHREY attestation document.
Sue
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Haven't we established from service records earlier on this thread that Henry Humphreys and James Glen had different coloured eyes?
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Yes,
I do believe so! ::)
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Hi all and a huge thanks for all the help and suggestions. I think I've got a long job on my hands working out what happened to Henry but this thread has definitely clarified a few things for me. Many thanks.
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May not be the right person, but mention him in case.
Free index to the 1921 census has Henry J Humphrey, born 1881, Kent, living in Portsmouth.
Address is 24 Collingwood Road Southsea, schedule 285.
He is the head.
Wife is Amy C Humphrey, born 1881, Shoreditch, London.
There are six children.
Eldest is Harold, born 1911. Youngest is Ernest J, born 1920.
Can't see a birth registration for Harold. The others are registered in Portsmouth, and have mother's maiden surname Davis.
Is there a marriage for Henry and Amy? :-\
Helped with that address by the 1920 Kelly's Directory of Hampshire (Portsmouth streets) which has Henry James Humphrey, marine store dealer, at 24 Collingwood Road.
There's a 1925 Portsmouth newspaper report of an inquest into the death of Violet May Humphrey of Collingwood Road, age 2 years 11 months. Father Henry James Humphrey.
Sadly, Harold died 21 May 1940, age 28.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2502069/harold-humphrey/
Back to the '21 census index, James and Sophia Glen and family are in Birtley, Durham.
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I have the same problem with one of my ancestors.
William Somerville (various spellings) who was married to Janet Wotherspoon in June 1863 in Edinburgh. Janet was his Aunt in Law who was originally married to James Muirhead, his mother's brother.
On William and Janet's Marriage certificate, she is shown as a spinster but was a widow as her husband died in 1860 in Old monkland Airdrie.
Last entry for William is 1881 census in Carmyle living with his Mother.
He was a Flour Miller and worked at Hallcraig Mill. I have a newspaper entry for him stating that he was bankrupt but unable to find any death for him since then, Maybe he changed his name. William was born in 1837 in Cambusnethan
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I have ancestor who had an alias -- thougt it might be to do with his convict history. After 40 years of thinking so, newly released records enabled me to determine that his widowed mother remarried to a man with the alias surname when he was young. So he had his birth name but was also known by his step-dad's surname.
I had a twice widowed ancestor who reverted to her first husband's surname because she had no children with the second man and i guess it stopped her having to explain her relationship to her children constantly.
We all assume aliases imply something sinister but basically all it means is that you are known by a different name. Lots of married women these days use both their married surname and their maiden names at various times -- not to mention the ordinary mispronunciations and misrecordings every day such as by shop assistants etc
We must remember too that amongst the people with the greatest number of aliases are the royal family and nobility -- only for them it is dignified by being called titles and not just aliases.
Regards
pH
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Nice point there, about Royal "aliases"!
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Hi Jon,
Yes i saw that person as well. Am on the hunt for relevant marriage etc. Thanks :)
May not be the right person, but mention him in case.
Free index to the 1921 census has Henry J Humphrey, born 1881, Kent, living in Portsmouth.
Address is 24 Collingwood Road Southsea, schedule 285.
He is the head.
Wife is Amy C Humphrey, born 1881, Shoreditch, London.
There are six children.
Eldest is Harold, born 1911. Youngest is Ernest J, born 1920.
Can't see a birth registration for Harold. The others are registered in Portsmouth, and have mother's maiden surname Davis.
Is there a marriage for Henry and Amy? :-\
Helped with that address by the 1920 Kelly's Directory of Hampshire (Portsmouth streets) which has Henry James Humphrey, marine store dealer, at 24 Collingwood Road.
There's a 1925 Portsmouth newspaper report of an inquest into the death of Violet May Humphrey of Collingwood Road, age 2 years 11 months. Father Henry James Humphrey.
Sadly, Harold died 21 May 1940, age 28.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2502069/harold-humphrey/
Back to the '21 census index, James and Sophia Glen and family are in Birtley, Durham.
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Hi, yes I am wondering if I've been reading more into this that might be the case. Sophia had children with both Henry and James but its curious that she reverted to using Henry's surname almost immediately James had died, and while her children with James were still living with her. There's probably nothing in it but it just fascinates me.
Thanks.
I have ancestor who had an alias -- thougt it might be to do with his convict history. After 40 years of thinking so, newly released records enabled me to determine that his widowed mother remarried to a man with the alias surname when he was young. So he had his birth name but was also known by his step-dad's surname.
I had a twice widowed ancestor who reverted to her first husband's surname because she had no children with the second man and i guess it stopped her having to explain her relationship to her children constantly.
We all assume aliases imply something sinister but basically all it means is that you are known by a different name. Lots of married women these days use both their married surname and their maiden names at various times -- not to mention the ordinary mispronunciations and misrecordings every day such as by shop assistants etc
We must remember too that amongst the people with the greatest number of aliases are the royal family and nobility -- only for them it is dignified by being called titles and not just aliases.
Regards
pH
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Hi, yes I am wondering if I've been reading more into this that might be the case. Sophia had children with both Henry and James but its curious that she reverted to using Henry's surname almost immediately James had died, and while her children with James were still living with her. There's probably nothing in it but it just fascinates me.
Thanks.
I have ancestor who had an alias -- thougt it might be to do with his convict history. After 40 years of thinking so, newly released records enabled me to determine that his widowed mother remarried to a man with the alias surname when he was young. So he had his birth name but was also known by his step-dad's surname.
I had a twice widowed ancestor who reverted to her first husband's surname because she had no children with the second man and i guess it stopped her having to explain her relationship to her children constantly.
We all assume aliases imply something sinister but basically all it means is that you are known by a different name. Lots of married women these days use both their married surname and their maiden names at various times -- not to mention the ordinary mispronunciations and misrecordings every day such as by shop assistants etc
We must remember too that amongst the people with the greatest number of aliases are the royal family and nobility -- only for them it is dignified by being called titles and not just aliases.
Regards
pH
It all boils down to one simple legal fact a person's name (in England) is the name they use.
It make no difference whether their parents had a different name or if they married or even if they had changed their name by deed pole etc., if they use another name that other name is their legal name.
Cheers
Guy