RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: mckha489 on Sunday 27 June 21 03:51 BST (UK)
-
I have a document from LMA. regarding Elizabeth MORGAN suing for restoration of conjugal rites (which I suppose is code for needing money to support herself) from her husband John MORGAN (he of the Inner Temple. (Who had children with someone named Sarah)
It says
"... in Our Diocese of London to appear personally before the Right Worshipful
John Betterworth Doctor of Laws Vicar General and Offical Principal of our
Consistorial and Episcopal Court of London lawfully apointed his
Surrogate or Some other competent Judge in this behalf in the Common Hall of Doctors
Commons situate in the Parish of St Benedict near Pauls Wharfe London"
The document with this in it is dated 26 June 1764. It was served on the 29th June, and returned on the 2nd July 1764.
Where might I find records of the hearing at Doctor's commons? Which should have been in the week of 2nd July, if not actually on the 2nd July (he had to present himself three days after being served
I have searched the Lambeth Palace Archives online Catalogue, SoG catalogue and looked more at LMA. But I suspect am not searching in the right way.
-
Doctors' Commons was the host to various London courts, so to find cases held there the best approach is to look at the archive for the court where the case was in process, rather than for Doctors Commons.
From the description, it looks like the case you have is probably from the London Consistory Court. The records are in the LMA under DL/C. The archive has a fine collection of depositions, which can go into an extraordinary level of detail. If you are lucky (and if the dispute got that far), these will survive for your case.
-
Thank you Novak20
I’ll have yet another go at the LMA catalogue,
-
I’ll have yet another go at the LMA catalogue
Good luck with that ;D
-
I’ll have yet another go at the LMA catalogue
Good luck with that ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D
I so want to find out “Elizabeth’s” maiden name so as to narrow down the options for John Morgan.
Not content with the fact there are hundreds of John Morgans I am even starting to wonder now if Morgan is an anglicisation.
-
Hi
I hope you find it, and her!
I could only find what you have already, there ought to be more in there somewhere.
A summary on TNA on what might be found at LMA
Consistory Court of London
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/d95b1b8b-bfde-4e2d-960d-25554346c316
Hoping to see a modern book somewhere, some cases written up by someone, with appropriate archive references. A sort of how to do it. Still looking!
John
-
LMA describes the complicated way the records arrived there and that some went to the wrong depositories and that even now they still receive records that have been found in the wrong place!
-
Perhaps this very interesting subject hasn't been gone into as much as one might imagine. Does the LMA have it's own expert who can give you some advice? :-\
-
Yes. I think that is what I am going to have to do.
I would have liked to be able to give a bit more information though. The document I already have cost me £50. Which they rounded down a few pounds. And that was with the full reference.
There is this tantalising site. Which only covers mediaeval cases
http://consistory.cohds.ca/about.php?id=1&expand=about
And some books referenced on the British History site, but they too seem to relate to mediaeval records.
-
Hi
You have certainly found something interesting. But, yes, a long way back.
With not much idea of what we are looking for!
Allegations, Libels, and Sentence Books
Feb 1755-Nov 1764 DL/C/174
Personal Answer Books
May 1760-May 1796 DL/C/203
Deposition Books
Dec 1771-June 1776 DL/C/279
I'm (quickly) browsing through a Bristol University thesis, Women and Marriage in the Eighteenth Century, Evidence from the London Church Courts, 1730-1780
https://research-information.bris.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/34492250/322522.pdf
No time to study it in depth tonight though!
-
Deposition Books
Dec 1771-June 1776 DL/C/279
That's the wrong one!
April 1760-Jan 1769 DL/C/276
-
That thesis is interesting on its own account.
On page 214 in a helpful appendix is
The whole procedure of both the Commissary and Consistory courts were
conducted by ajudge in an open court, where the verdict and sentence was
orally delivered. An account of the proceedings was entered into an Act Book, where each entry recorded the name of the judge, his authority, the place of the
session,the date and the name of the recording notary, before giving details of the accused, the name of the parish, the grounds of the accusation and the
proceedings against him or her. All accounts by this period were written in
English, and are generally clearly legible and easy to read. All evidence of the
proceedingswererecordedinchronological order,andonthewholewere alphabetically indexed at the beginning or end of each register.
The process began with a `citation' (a subpoena) being served for the accused to
appear in court. The citation named the judge, the day and place of the court, the
person cited and the accusation. The defendant rejected the libel by making an `allegation' to the judge. If the judge accepted the allegation, the defendant was
called to prove it by production and examination of witnesses. The `interrogatories' were records of the examinations and the replies given, which
asverbatim copies of the evidence were called `depositions'. Causeswere
reliant on a written testament from each party. "" The defendant was then given
the opportunity to respond with a `counter allegation' and would support this by producing witnesses. The judge would then assign a date for the sentence to be
After the sentence was given, an order (the `taxation of costs') was made
for thepaymentsof costsandtheperformanceof apenancewhereappropriate.
So, the document I have is the bit I have in bold.
So I am looking, as I understand it, for an Allegation, and then Interrogatories
-
Yes, all those references I quoted were from Primary Sources, at the end of the thesis. Which has been more useful than the LMA catalogue to date.
-
The published work on the Consistory Court has mainly focussed on depositions: there's an early modern one from late 16th early 17th century, and a very useful index by Cliff Webb 1700-1713 under the name 'London's Bawdy Courts'. So, unfortunately, not for the dates you need.
Is the case reference for the paper that you have is this?
DL/C/1492/026
which, the catalogue claims, includes two documents.
There are contemporary calendars to depositions, so a short cut would be to check one of those for the relevant dates and see if anything turns up. It would also be an indication of how far the dispute went and whether there is more litigation to find.
-
Yes, that is the reference to what I have.
The two documents are two pages.
One is the citation itself and the other is the note saying it has been served and the date of service.
Thank you for that advice,
-
The published work on the Consistory Court has mainly focussed on depositions: there's an early modern one from late 16th early 17th century, and a very useful index by Cliff Webb 1700-1713 under the name 'London's Bawdy Courts'. So, unfortunately, not for the dates you need.
Is the case reference for the paper that you have is this?
DL/C/1492/026
which, the catalogue claims, includes two documents.
There are contemporary calendars to depositions, so a short cut would be to check one of those for the relevant dates and see if anything turns up. It would also be an indication of how far the dispute went and whether there is more litigation to find.
I am revisiting this problem .
Where might I find these “contemporary calendars to depositions “ at the consistory court for 1764?