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General => Technical Help => Topic started by: andrewalston on Saturday 26 June 21 16:04 BST (UK)
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Microsoft this week announced that Windows 10 is not the "last Windows ever" which they promised in 2015.
Arriving probably at the end of this year is Windows 11.
Under the skin, it is very much like the current version,
There are a lot of "marketing" buzzwords thrown around. We are told for example that it will make things wonderful for "creators" (who presumably have four 48-inch monitors on their expensive kit). They also claim that it is "powered by the cloud", which means that you will be forced to tie it to a Microsoft account, and many more things will fail to work if you are not connected to the internet. The videos show a second device resuming where a first device has left off, functionality which demands that everything you do be sent to Microsoft.
Here's what most of us will notice:
- They have tweaked the interface so that windows on screen have rounded corners.
- The taskbar icons are now centred, though you can shift the Start button back to the left.
- You will be forced to have your machine tethered to Microsoft. They have been making it increasingly difficult to opt out of this for some time, first by making it the default, then by hiding the sensible option in a corner, in small print, then nagging you as though you are a naughty person for being sane.
- It will NOT run on 32-bit hardware. Only 64-bit processors are supported.
- It will NOT run on older machines. It REQUIRES a Trusted Platform Module (TPM) chip of at least version 2.0, the specification of which was first published in October 2014. It also REQUIRES "Secure Boot" to be switched on. You can check the version of your TPM chip using Device Manager and looking under Security Devices.
- It is believed that drive encryption will be forced on. This means that should your PC system board fail, the contents of your drive WILL be lost, since the encryption key is stored in that TPM chip.
- Windows 11 will be a free upgrade if you have Windows 10 on suitable hardware.
Support for Windows 10 will end on October 14th, 2025. Windows XP support ended SEVEN years after Vista appeared and Windows 7 support ended EIGHT years after its "replacement" arrived. Apparently they have decided to give PC makers a boost by forcing users to put their existing hardware into landfill.
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Already being discussed here :)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=850281.0
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I appreciate there is another discussion about this, but the post here raises a number of issues that haven't been mentioned there.
Andrew - do you have any sources for the changes that you mention? I've looked at the page about Windows 11 on the MS site, and the video there, but didn't see anything about the need for a MS account, or it being cloud-based, or that drives will be encrypted.
So is this just speculation, or have MS actually said they intend to do all this?
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There's a 'Frequently asked questions' at the bottom of the link, Arthur:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11
Also, I read about it in The Guardian, which discussed some of the issues, if I remember correctly.
Gadget
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Thanks - I'd already read those FAQs before I posted but they didn't seem to cover the things Andrew mentioned. They're mostly variations on "will it run on my PC" and "how do I get it", with very little about what it actually includes.
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Quote "Apparently they have decided to give PC makers a boost by forcing users to put their existing hardware into landfill."
Just because Microsoft have ended support for their earlier operating systems doesn't mean the computers running them have to be discarded. One of my desktops is still running its original 32 bit XP, which among other things I use to read the LDS Vital Records & 1881 census cd sets (I have tried & confirm that Win 10 32 bit can run the LDS viewer for these cd's).
Although my main desktop is running Win 10 I still have Win 7 on its other partition, again for the programs that need that version.
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A pox on microsoft's new downloads. I spent ages trying to get rid of a black noticeboard with about three headlines on it. Eventually I called for son's assistance and the black thing that covered most of my screen and wouldn't allow me to open or close any of my firefox windows has now been consigned to never never land.
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Just because Microsoft have ended support for their earlier operating systems doesn't mean the computers running them have to be discarded. One of my desktops is still running its original 32 bit XP, which among other things I use to read the LDS Vital Records & 1881 census cd sets (I have tried & confirm that Win 10 32 bit can run the LDS viewer for these cd's).
Although my main desktop is running Win 10 I still have Win 7 on its other partition, again for the programs that need that version.
That's all very well for someone who knows what they're doing, but a lot of readers here wouldn't know how to set up another partition.
Moreover, we don't all have unlimited space available, so from that point of view it's hard to justify keeping a computer that can't use the internet safely (particularly if it's a bulky desktop one), simply in order to use a set of CDs containing data that's available online anyway.
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Hmmm… as far as I can tell from the marketing blurb, it’s going to have a new look, more apps access and push the Microsoft teams app and cloud storage more.
I think the ms bosses have realised how profitable zoom has become and wants a bigger slice. I remember teams suddenly appearing in my taskbar after an update but never used it.
Personally, I don’t need more apps, my desktop to be reorganised, or pushing to cloud use thank you. FaceTime, WhatsApp and old fashioned telephone are my preferred communication from a distance. We’ve done zoom a handful of times but it isn’t our top priority.
So, unless Microsoft can show me the real advantages to upgrade then no thanks, I’ll wait until my pc needs to be replaced.
Jenny
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That's all very well for someone who knows what they're doing, but a lot of readers here wouldn't know how to set up another partition.
Moreover, we don't all have unlimited space available, so from that point of view it's hard to justify keeping a computer that can't use the internet safely (particularly if it's a bulky desktop one), simply in order to use a set of CDs containing data that's available online anyway.
Don’t think these upgrades are designed for the older generation’s benefit Arthur.
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Don’t think these upgrades are designed for the older generation’s benefit Arthur.
Indeed, though I'm not sure I'm quite ready to be "the older generation" - there are some here who are a quite a bit older than me ;)
But whatever your age, this shift to cloud-based computing depends on the speed and quality of your broadband connection. I have no problem with the principle of backing up files in the cloud, but whenever I try to do it, there's no bandwidth left for anyone to do anything else useful with the internet. So I have to pick my moment, and it's a long slow process.
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Sorry Arthur, I didn’t mean you personally. I include myself in that category even though my professional life was in IT many years ago now.
I meant we generally have different needs from a pc, Many of us are not into high graphic games and working from home professionally. I mostly use my pc for internet, email, scanning, occasional photo editing, word, excel and family history. My iPad I use for FaceTime, the odd game and watching films/tv etc., I can’t see how win11 is going to enhance my user experience. I customised win10 to my liking, I don’t want to have to start all over again.
I’m not against cloud storage but I also believe we should have a choice and not have our external hard drives automatically encrypted without our knowledge. I am experienced enough to sort it out but I know many others do not without professional help.
I could go on… ;D
Jenny
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No need to apologise - I am after all old enough to be a grandad, and even if I wasn't I'm usually up for a bit of banter.
In fact my PC/iPad usage is very similar to yours; and so far I've managed to hold out against getting a smartphone, but that might not last for ever.
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Just because Microsoft have ended support for their earlier operating systems doesn't mean the computers running them have to be discarded.
Although my main desktop is running Win 10 I still have Win 7 on its other partition, again for the programs that need that version.
Windows 7 support only finished in January last year, eight years after the release of its successor. Microsoft have decided that three years must suffice in future. The number of exploit attempts targetting Win7 in February 2020 was much greater than in the whole of the previous year. Your Win7 installation survives because you are careful what you use it for. Think off the millions who still use it for browsing the net, with hundreds of known, but unpatched, vulnerabilties. That will be you and your Win10 only four years from now. Support for Win10 version 1909 has already been stopped (less than 3 years!).
Andrew - do you have any sources for the changes that you mention? I've looked at the page about Windows 11 on the MS site, and the video there, but didn't see anything about the need for a MS account, or it being cloud-based, or that drives will be encrypted.
So is this just speculation, or have MS actually said they intend to do all this?
The leaked version shown in many online analyses is the "Pro" version and still has an "offline" account possible, but hidden behind several nags. The "Home" version has many more restrictions. The cut-down Win10 offered to third-world markets does not allow offline accounts; Microsoft sees that as a Good Thing.
Encryption is being pushed, naturally, as a security feature - "Secure by design". It was enabled by default on the installations I've seen; it was not clear whether the encrytion could be stopped and reversed.
64-bit processor (Intel "I7" or the AMD equivalent), Secure Boot and TPM 2.0 are official requirements. Processors designed since 2018 are almost certain to incorporate TPM 2.0 features on the chip, even if there is a TPM 1.2 chip fitted on the board.
"Powered by the cloud" is a quote from Microsoft. In the industry it is directly equivalent to "give us all your data". Microsoft look enviously at Google and Apple, who enforce environments where all user information is passed to them without exception. "Knowledge is Power".
There are ways of doing a CLEAN installation of the leaked Win11 onto older hardware by overwriting some files in the install image with the older versions from Win10. It is not clear whether this will be possible with the released version, and this would certainly not be possible for an upgrade-in-situ, of which there will be two every year.
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Andrew,
I understand & agree with your comments.
Just for general info, despite having been in mechanical engineering rather than the computer industry I have been part of the Windows insider programme since the first test issue of Win 7 when it was just the front page without any other content - through Win 8 during its pre-release testing to the preview versions of Win 10 since 2014 up to the present.
Michael.
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So is this just speculation, or have MS actually said they intend to do all this?
The leaked version shown in many online analyses.....
How much can a leaked version be trusted as a source? Is it the latest version that's heading towards release, or one that's already been superseded? And do Microsoft deliberately "leak" things so as to gauge the reaction, and then tweak their products accordingly? (Not that I've noticed them take much notice of public opinion.)
Moving on, I don't know if I'm being thick, but aren't there some contradictions in the following?
Encryption is being pushed, naturally, as a security feature - "Secure by design"....
<snip>
"Powered by the cloud" is a quote from Microsoft. In the industry it is directly equivalent to "give us all your data". Microsoft look enviously at Google and Apple, who enforce environments where all user information is passed to them without exception. "Knowledge is Power".
If everything is encrypted, what use would it be to Microsoft (or anyone else for that matter) if you put it in the cloud? Or are you saying that web-based storage and/or apps are essentially insecure and anything you do with them can be seen by whoever is hosting them?
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Given that most current PC's are not likely to be able to run Windows 11, time to think about the future!
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11
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Given that most current PC's are not likely to be able to run Windows 11, time to think about the future!
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11
Think you're a little late with that link. I put it up on the other thread last week:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=850281.0
And replacement PCs were discussed with tongue in cheek.
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They did say:
What may be most important about this latest desktop share milestone, though, is that it could be the last shift of this type. Windows OS migrations have been a staple project in the IT industry for decades -- Windows 95 to Windows 98, Windows 98 to Windows 2000, Windows 98 to Windows XP, and on and on and on. The project has come up like clockwork every three or four years. Windows 10 was famously called "the last version of Windows" by Microsoft developer evangelist Jerry Nixon. A better way to think of it may be as the "forever version of Windows."
https://redmondmag.com/blogs/scott-bekker/2019/01/windows-10-microsofts-forever-os.aspx
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64-bit processor (Intel "I7" or the AMD equivalent), Secure Boot and TPM 2.0 are official requirements. Processors designed since 2018 are almost certain to incorporate TPM 2.0 features on the chip, even if there is a TPM 1.2 chip fitted on the board.
When Windows 10 came out sites like Freecycle were inundated with people disposing of peripherals like printers and scanners that no longer worked.
If MS follow through on the TPM 2.0 requirement it looks like this time there will be a plethora of 'useless' PCs being given away.
I hover between Linux (Lubuntu) and Windows. Being forced to encrypt the data on my hard drive(s) would be the point where I made the switch to Linux complete.
With an unencrypted disk there is at least a fair chance of being able to recover some of the data with low-cost or free tools. And in my experience people are more likely to have a disk failure with bad sectors or an overwritten partition table, than they are to suffer a ransomware attack or a genuine attempt to remotely hack their computer for malicious purposes. But I'm sure the data recovery specialists are going to be rubbing their hands at their future prospects. ;)
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If everything is encrypted, what use would it be to Microsoft (or anyone else for that matter) if you put it in the cloud? Or are you saying that web-based storage and/or apps are essentially insecure and anything you do with them can be seen by whoever is hosting them?
They aren't so much interested in the content of your data, what they want is to take possession of it.
Because once it is on their servers the user has to keep coming back to their site to access the data. And once you've gone to the effort of transferring all the files to their site it is a faff to move them to a different site, so the user is effectively captured.
Which means the user ends up with a "[Insert corporation name] account" which is likely permanently logged in, and will be for the foreseeable future.
And whilst logged in, the corporation will be hovering up all the information they can about where you are, what you are looking at, what you are buying, what you are doing etc etc.
Because who you are and what you do is the product the corporation is really interested in... not your pictures of sandy beaches and drunken nights out. (or gravestones in the case of many RootsChatters ;) )
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Thanks, Nick. I'd be interested in Andrew's take on this too, since he was the one who mentioned these issues.
Meanwhile...
And whilst logged in, the corporation will be hovering up all the information they can about where you are, what you are looking at, what you are buying, what you are doing etc etc.
Does this mean that so long as you are logged in only for as long as necessary, and don't do anything else on the computer at the same time, you're reasonably safe? Also, is this something that you could block with a firewall?
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Does this mean that so long as you are logged in only for as long as necessary, and don't do anything else on the computer at the same time, you're reasonably safe? Also, is this something that you could block with a firewall?
It depends what you mean by 'safe'.
In terms of a corporation using the data you've uploaded for a purpose you wouldn't want them to, then my own view is the risk is low - not because I trust the corporations, but because of the vast quantity of data and the utter irrelevance of most of it to the corporations concerned means that the reward vs effort equation isn't that positive for them.
Nevertheless, I personally wouldn't upload anything containing my full name, phone numbers, email, or postal address. In fact nothing I wouldn't be comfortable putting in the recycling/rubbish bins outside my house. The reason for that is that once something is out of your control, you have no control over what other people might do with it.
The second point is that what is 'safe' depends entirely on what permissions and cookies etc you have allowed on your computer and accounts. Tracking and monitoring are now so pervasive that anything you do on an internet-connected computer could be recorded and (later) added to a corporate database, even if you are logged out / disconnected from the internet at the time you are doing it.
A firewall makes no difference if you have given consent (even unknowingly) to having your data and activity tracked and logged.
To be really 'safe' requires a level of knowledge and dedication that few of us have. That's why I gave up a long time ago, and have maintained a second (or more!) computer which contains all my 'personal' information, and which never goes online. It also means I could stick with Windows XP on that machine without fearing the doomsday scenarios used to encourage us to update/upgrade yet again.
Without the option of a second computer, I think by now I'd be using only a version of Linux developed by people who do have the knowledge and dedication required to make life as difficult as possible for the corporations. There is always a trade-off between security and convenience, but on balance I'd normally go for the security of Linux vs the convenience of MS or Apple products.
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If everything is encrypted, what use would it be to Microsoft (or anyone else for that matter) if you put it in the cloud? Or are you saying that web-based storage and/or apps are essentially insecure and anything you do with them can be seen by whoever is hosting them?
Hard drive encryption has been with us for quite some time. It is commonly used in commercial organisations, though apparently the MOD are less than keen, leading to embarrassing leaks of information. It should be seen as a positive security item, stopping all but the originating user being able to get at a document on a hard drive. Home users, though, are unlikely to understand its importance, or the requirement for backup.
Microsoft want you to store your documents on their cloud environment - OneDrive - rather than locally. The "free" version of Office will do nothing else. Rent Office 365, and MS throw in some OneDrive space. They let you have a little space for "free", but charge a monthly fee for sensible amounts. They used to have an "unlimited" option, but chopped this drastically about 5 years ago.
Documents on OneDrive are NOT encrypted, but passed across the internet in their native form, so if you don't want MS looking inside them, you'll need to encrypt them manually first with something like PGP. Just copying from an encrypted hard drive would decrypt it automatically before it left your machine.
Once the data is on their servers, Microsoft can analyse it at leisure, just as Google do with their Google Docs, Gmail, Android and Chromebook environments. They sell you and your information to advertisers. If you have spreadsheets of marriages and burials, as many of us do, expect to see more adverts for wedding venues and funeral directors. It doesn't matter whether you use Microsoft's browser or not, because they know the machine you are using and your identity.
Nevertheless, I personally wouldn't upload anything containing my full name, phone numbers, email, or postal address.
No need. They already HAVE all that. You ticked the box when you installed Microsoft software years ago.
It is in their financial interest to collect all this stuff, because advertisers pay them for it. They paid good money to have politicians sign your rights away, and they won't give up their main revenue stream.
By the way, the MS website now officially states "Microsoft account and internet connectivity required for setup for Windows 11 Home".
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Andrew,
I understand & agree with your comments.
Just for general info, despite having been in mechanical engineering rather than the computer industry I have been part of the Windows insider programme since the first test issue of Win 7 when it was just the front page without any other content - through Win 8 during its pre-release testing to the preview versions of Win 10 since 2014 up to the present.
Michael.
It seems that from today, the Win11 preview will be downloaded to Insiders just like other Insider builds, EVEN IF THE HARDWARE REQUIREMENTS ARE NOT MET.
That proves that there is no technical reason for the hardware requirements.
Once Win11 is actually released, if your box does not meet the requirements, you will have to reinstall Win10 (or something else).
Edit:
The first Insider build I tried failed claiming that Secure Boot was unavailable, which was true, but annoying.
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Hard drive encryption has been with us for quite some time. It is commonly used in commercial organisations, though apparently the MOD are less than keen, leading to embarrassing leaks of information. It should be seen as a positive security item, stopping all but the originating user being able to get at a document on a hard drive. Home users, though, are unlikely to understand its importance, or the requirement for backup.
I'm not sure it is a lack of understanding, more a case of not seeing the relevance. For business/work purposes, or where you otherwise take a laptop out and about with you, then it makes a lot of sense to password protect and encrypt everything in case the device is lost or stolen. But for home laptops or desktops that rarely (or never) leave the house then encryption doesn't really add a great deal.
If someone has broken into your home and has physical access to the device then they are very likely to have free access to many other items in the home thah are more valuable or sensitive than the contents of your hard disk. If the device is switched on and connected to the internet, and is vulnerable to remote access, then encryption is not going to stop people accessing your information because, as you also pointed out, just copying from an encrypted hard drive would decrypt it automatically before it left your machine.
Meanwhile there is not just the issue I mentioned already about data recovery, but also an overhead (however small) in operating the encryption/decryption function. Given Window's penchant for slowing computers down until they are unusable, that overhead is just one more thing than many users could do without. ;)
The need to back up is of course not well followed by many people. Whilst I use a batch file on my family history/personal finance PC to do regular backups of working files and folders through the day, and always before shutting down (in case of grinding crunching noises when starting up next time :o), I would see that as being highly atypical... possibly to the point of obsessive. ;D
For those people who aren't so diligent when it comes to backing up, encryption of their disks will add a further barrier to the chances of them being able to recover their precious data when something goes wrong.
There should at least be an option to switch encryption off, even if it defaults to 'on' during installation.
Nevertheless, I personally wouldn't upload anything containing my full name, phone numbers, email, or postal address.
No need. They already HAVE all that. You ticked the box when you installed Microsoft software years ago.
Oh no they don't. ;)
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Andrew,
According to the MS blog it's only TPM 2.0 and the CPU family model that are not being enforced for insiders and warn that if you have any problems you will be moved to the release preview channel & have to re-install Win 10.
MS tell me 'your PC does not meet the minimum hardware requirements' and 'there may be issues & bugs that impact your experience' so as I moved to the release preview channel some time ago I think I will not be trying Win 11 just yet.
Michael.
Added: My cpu is Intel 6th generation; the preview could run on Intel 7th generation but 8th generation is better.
Also, MS have acknowledged the feedback that the Health check doesn't give enough information so are looking into improving it.
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Microsoft want you to store your documents on their cloud environment - OneDrive - rather than locally. The "free" version of Office will do nothing else. Rent Office 365, and MS throw in some OneDrive space. They let you have a little space for "free", but charge a monthly fee for sensible amounts. They used to have an "unlimited" option, but chopped this drastically about 5 years ago.
Documents on OneDrive are NOT encrypted, but passed across the internet in their native form, so if you don't want MS looking inside them, you'll need to encrypt them manually first with something like PGP. Just copying from an encrypted hard drive would decrypt it automatically before it left your machine.
Since I don't use OneDrive or any version of MS Office (in fact since I managed to install W10 without a MS account I suspect it's can't as well as don't), am I protected against their attempts to seize my information?
I was going to add that if data on my hard drive was encrypted, would that also prevent MS getting their hands on it? However, in view of Nick's comment on the last sentence of Andrew's that I've quoted:
If the device is switched on and connected to the internet, and is vulnerable to remote access, then encryption is not going to stop people accessing your information because, as you also pointed out, just copying from an encrypted hard drive would decrypt it automatically before it left your machine.
are you saying that MS or other entities could just swipe files off the hard drive anyway and be able to read them even though they were encrypted? If so, what's the point of encryption?
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Since I don't use OneDrive or any version of MS Office (in fact since I managed to install W10 without a MS account I suspect it's can't as well as don't), am I protected against their attempts to seize my information?
They will still collect what is called "metadata" - things relating to how you use your computer.
I used to explain metadata by saying if they came across was a file called "Next Year's Redundancies", they could draw conclusions even if they could not open the file. Even the size of the file could be useful. In WWII, the British used "traffic analysis" well before the German codes were readable. Knowing who was talking to who gave invaluable insights into strategy. US intelligence services are known still to use this method.
Microsoft know a lot about your computer already. Make, model, hardware fitted, location and even the software being used are readily accessible to them. The aim is to translate that into revenue. Remember how much you paid for this version of Windows? They used to make MILLIONS from those Windows sales, and they want to get that money flowing again, so they are selling YOU to advertisers.
I was going to add that if data on my hard drive was encrypted, would that also prevent MS getting their hands on it? However, in view of Nick's comment on the last sentence of Andrew's that I've quoted:
If the device is switched on and connected to the internet, and is vulnerable to remote access, then encryption is not going to stop people accessing your information because, as you also pointed out, just copying from an encrypted hard drive would decrypt it automatically before it left your machine.
are you saying that MS or other entities could just swipe files off the hard drive anyway and be able to read them even though they were encrypted? If so, what's the point of encryption?
Encryption is a major barrier to those with physical access. Taking the drive out and putting it in another machine would just show gobbledygook.
Those accessing a computer as another user, even an Administrator, would not be able to access a user's files. It is common for an admin to access a computer across a network in order to diagnose and fix faults; they do so under their OWN username, so can not read the main user's documents. Unless you have the user's credentials, their files are locked away.
Should a computer be compromised by malware, or be running screen-sharing software (a common tactic used by scammers), then the user's files are fully accessible.
It is unclear whether the System account, used internally by Windows, can bypass these protections. It is unlikely that Microsoft would actually use it if it could, but you can bet that malware writers will have tried it.
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OK, thanks for that. So it seems the bottom line is that it might not be quite as bad as I feared, but if I want the convenience of a Windows computer then I'm going to have to accept that Microsoft will be keeping tabs on me to some extent - and this is probably already the case with Windows 10.
One further question about MS accounts - the W11 page says this (my Bold):
Microsoft account and internet connectivity required for setup for Windows 11 Home
If I were to create a new user account with admin privileges and use that to perform the upgrade to W11, and afterwards either delete it or just not use it any more, would I then be able to use W11 with my existing local account (ie not signed in to Microsoft at all)?
Or, in view of what you've just said about them monitoring traffic etc, is there little advantage in not having a MS account? Even if I had one, I wouldn't be using MS products such as Office or OneDrive.
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If I were to create a new user account with admin privileges and use that to perform the upgrade to W11, and afterwards either delete it or just not use it any more, would I then be able to use W11 with my existing local account (ie not signed in to Microsoft at all)?
Or, in view of what you've just said about them monitoring traffic etc, is there little advantage in not having a MS account? Even if I had one, I wouldn't be using MS products such as Office or OneDrive.
The upgrade does not run with the user's credentials, but under the System user. If you have multiple accounts on a PC, each will then go through the lengthy bit that said "We have some updates for your PC" and a load of other patronising stuff (they have improved this in recent Insider builds). While this is going on, the system is actually trawling through the user's profile and ensuring that it follows the rules for the new version.
There are some features which demand an MS account and others which currently don't, but MS wish they did, and they push you towards its use. In their Store, for example, apps acquired on one machine are marked as "owned" on another tied to the same account.
That text on the website means that Windows 11 Home will continue to run when not connected to the Internet, but needs it during Setup. The "Out Of Box Experience" for Home will not have any option for a local account, and I expect the "upgrade" to demand an MS account before you see a desktop. Previous Win10 versions have demanded that we fill in extra forms at this stage; it would be trivial to implement.
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I heard that when some users upgraded from W7 to W10 while logged in via their MS account, the User's folder name in which they kept their personal files was changed from the one they'd had previously to one using the first 5 letters of their email address - so Norman found that his files were now located under Norma etc.
Any thoughts/comments on this? This is one reason for my question about doing the upgrade from a different account.
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The stupidity of the folder rename must have struck home, because we have not heard similar stories at the major updates since. These go through the same process, and those on the Insider scheme go through many more - about one per fortnight for the "Dev" channel.
I have a couple of old laptops on the Insider scheme. The first one decided that it was not going to install Win11. This is the one that I thought might have an easier time, with little software installed. However the lack of Secure Boot appeared to be a stopper.
Late last night I got round to opening up the other laptop. It too is ancient. Its BIOS was last updated in 2010, so may have some UEFI features, though these don't appear in its menus. It has much more legacy software installed, so much for the update to cope with. The fortnightly updates have generally coped well, though.
I was greeted by the time, centre screen, in a fresh font. The update to Win11 had completed.
I quite like the fresh style. There are some things i don't like, but the Feedback may get them changed.
One feature I used very regularly in Windows 10, and is absent from the fresh Start Menu, is the selection of recent documents. Right-click the Excel icon in the start menu, and the list of recently opened spreadsheets appears, and you can pick the right sheet directly. This is most useful with my FH software, which happily opens the correct tree this way, but if opened without specifying a project gives a menu with things like "Open most recent tree" and "Browse to a tree". Its own list of recent documents is not accessible at that point; it needs to open SOME tree before that appears.
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Thanks for that, Andrew - one less thing to worry about (hopefully).
One feature I used very regularly in Windows 10, and is absent from the fresh Start Menu, is the selection of recent documents. Right-click the Excel icon in the start menu, and the list of recently opened spreadsheets appears, and you can pick the right sheet directly....
I mostly access recent documents by right-clicking taskbar icons. Do you know if this is affected in the same way? (I have sometimes found that major updates clear the list, though - this wouldn't be what you've experienced in the Start menu, would it?)
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I've not had chance to test properly, but when I opened a tree, it still didn't appear in the right-click.
It did appear in the "Suggestions" which takes up the bottom half of the new Start Menu. This appears to be the same thing as the "Recent Files" in Win10's File Explorer.
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Is there a rationale for all this, or just bored programmers playing around?
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Is there a rationale for all this, or just bored programmers playing around?
It's almost always the Marketing Department.
They need to justify spending loads of cash on promoting the brand. If there aren't any new products, the "brand" is envisaged (mostly by the Marketing Department) as being "old-fashioned". So they demand that everything be "New!", "Improved!" and "Exciting!" even when it does exactly what the old version did. They have a Big Budget, so they get their way.
It's the same with laundry detergent. The first soapless detergents came as powders, and you could decide for yourself how much suited your wash. We have since seen fashions go through Liquids (with a measuring cup to make sure you didn't skimp), Tablets (which forced a certain dose on you) and currently Pods, which are such a bad idea that they need to be locked away from children). Through all this, thankfully, the powders have remained available, though with periodic "New!" "Improved!" on the carton.
The reasoning was invented in the USA around 1950 by their car makers. They started to change the design of a model in some obvious way every year rather than improving handling, safety, reliability or fuel economy, which they found difficult to promote.
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Had a bit of a play with the Insider build - nothing heavy yet.
I notice that others have commented on the wide spacing of lines in File Explorer, but I had already adjusted that in a previous build. There's a proper setting under Options for it. MS assume that everyone is using touch devices and requires extra room for fat fingers.
If you pin applications to the Taskbar, they still get their recent documents shown on right-click. Those pinned to the Start Menu don't.
The size of the pinning area is fixed. Have more than 18 items, and a miniature scroll bar appears, in pale grey on white. The Suggested area also has a fixed size, being a list of recent filenames with relevant icons but without their folder names. Mine shows just the most recent 6 files used. There
is a "More" to show the same list as "Recent files" in File Explorer's Quick Access.
Clicking on the "All apps" button shows the stuff that used to be on the Win10 Start menu's left-hand column. Things on there get their Recent stuff.
There is a registry entry to get the Win10 Start menu back. Browse to "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced" and create a DWORD called "Start_ShowClassicMode", then set it to 1.
Signing out then back in then gets me my pre-update Start menu, with all the pinned items in the places they were last week, and their Recent stuff intact. With the Taskbar alignment set to Left (in its Settings), things line up again and start making sense.
I still don't know why one PC gets Win11 and the other doesn't. Neither support any UEFI features, and System Information shows hardly any differences between the configs.
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Hi Andrew,
Many thanks for the report on Win 11, it makes very interesting reading & has made me think again.
Although my 4yr old laptop keeps being moved to the release channel, apparently because its Intel Core i7-6500U isn't supported, reselecting the dev channel lets me download Windows 11 Insider Preview 10.0.22000.51 (co_release), but I'm unsure as to whether I should install it bearing in mind on consumer release I will have to revert to Win 10.
Michael.
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I've only installed Insider stuff on things I could rebuild from scratch without worrying. I keep all the relevant drivers ready to use on my server, and I have a couple of spare drives I can slot in.
One of the boxes has already gone through rebuild following a particularly bad Insider attempt (before the public release of Win10).
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I've only installed Insider stuff on things I could rebuild from scratch without worrying.
I agree, I used both of my desktops for this previously & am using one as my main computer, having upgraded it to Win 10 Pro, but as it has a 2nd generation core i7 it won't even look at Win 11.
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As far as I can see, from various reviews on the web, all the 'improvements' appear to be cosmetic. I did try downloading the insider preview on an old PC, which aborted after a few minutes and reverted back to the installed Windows 10 build, telling me to reboot the system. It then immediately repeated the 'upgrade' process which aborted again ::) so I have abandoned the insider programme which I joined for the Windows 10 previews. I think I can wait a few years until I'm forced to upgrade, by which time I'll probably need a new PC anyway . . . if I'm still capable of using one by then ;)
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I wonder how many older computer users have been panicked into thinking that they need to buy a new computer. My mother in law on Windows 7 has just told me that she has to buy a new laptop as she couldn’t continue to use Windows 7.
Maybe she misunderstood what the information was saying, she is nearly 90.
Jo
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There is a registry entry to get the Win10 Start menu back. Browse to "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced" and create a DWORD called "Start_ShowClassicMode", then set it to 1.
Signing out then back in then gets me my pre-update Start menu, with all the pinned items in the places they were last week, and their Recent stuff intact. With the Taskbar alignment set to Left (in its Settings), things line up again and start making sense.
Unfortunately, this week's update has removed this. We are stuck with the new design of start menu.
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Thank you Andrew for your latest report, in a way I'm glad all my hardware has processors that are too old to run Win 11.
I hope MS heed your feedback.
Michael.