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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Staffordshire => Topic started by: effagee on Friday 25 June 21 11:40 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I'm posting to try and progress one of my ancestral dead ends.
Arthur MARSDEN b.1861 possibly Wolverhampton
I had a genealogist attempt to find him 20 years ago but found nothing then.
I have never found a birth record, census, or any record for that matter, for him prior to his marriage record to Hannah THOMAS in Liverpool in 1896.
Arthur was listed as a sailmaker, but at the time of his death (1902 Liverpool), a mariner, working on ships out of Liverpool (he drowned in the Mersey).
His marriage and death cert seem to verify the birth year.
On the marriage cert, his father is listed as John Marsden (deceased) - Railway foreman.
They had one child, Elizabeth, b.1900 Liverpool.
You may be wondering why I am posting on the Staffs page? - well, after many attempts at finding ships crew lists for him, one has appeared recently on Ancestry.
It is for 1901 (probably explains why he is missing from the 1901 census), and lists his place of birth as W'hampton. I am hoping this means Wolverhampton, although I still cannot find any other records to collaborate this.
There aren't many Marsdens in that area so I am hoping someone might be able to help - I really don't know how to move forward with this new information.
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I notice that the 1896 marriage was by Licence. Have you attempted to track down the Bond and/or Allegation associated with this? They may or may not be helpful. :-\
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There's at least one tree featuring him and Hannah, on Ancestry. "Marsden" is a pretty common surname in parts of Lancashire.
TY
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No GRO index for Arthur in Staffordshire but many elsewhere.
Colin
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Welcome to Rootschat.
For general info
Marriage 30 March 1896 in Liverpool
Arthur was 34, Sailmaker, residence 34 Strand Street
Image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L93N-X9KQ-N
Baptism of daughter Elizabeth Maud, 22 Oct 1900
Abode Denison St. Arthur still a Sailmaker
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9YL-GQDP-F
The Liverpool crew list may be the Lisbonense in 1901
A Marsden, 40, born W'hampton, home address 41 Denison St. Last ship Bernard. Capacity AB.
You would think his occupation would help.
Another crew list on Ancestry. NSW Unassisted
"River Falloch", arriving Sydney in April 1895, from Liverpool
Arthur Marsden, Station Sails, 33, of what nation America
Could it be him? :-\
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Sydney Morning Herald, 3 April 1895
The River Falloch - An Apprenticed Drowned
The ship River Falloch, from Liverpool 27th November,
arrived in Watson's Bay last night. She had fine weather
and fair winds for three days, and on the 8th December
encountered a terrific S.E. gale in lat. 40.38
north, and 20.23 west, in which storm the vessel
was on her beam ends. Several sails were split.
An apprentice named Croysdale was washed overboard
and drowned. Everything was done to save him, but all
to no effect.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14001829
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Arthur Marsden was in the newspapers as well!
The Australian Star, 9 April 1895
AT THE WATER.
Arthur Marsden.
A sailmaker employed on the ship River
Falloch pleaded guilty to having used
threatening language towards the second
officer. The trouble arose from an order
issued to a ship's boy to go ashore
and purchase bread for breakfast. The
officer refused to allow the boy to
leave the ship, and Marsden, in brilliant
language, questioned his authority to interfere
with the lad except when on deck. At
the same time he brandished a knife, with
which he had been sewing a sail. The accused
made a lengthy statement to prove his
officer's aggressive tactics, and the provocation
which, led to the threat. He was
bound over to keep the peace for six months
in sureties of £20 and £10, in default, six
weeks.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/227120446
An eventful voyage.
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Another one
Sydney Evening News, 9 April 1895
Water Police Court.
Arthur Marsden, 34, seaman, charged
with having used threatening language to
Gillespie Edwards, the second officer of
the ship Reinerfalloch (sic), now in port.
Prosecutor stated accused had threatened to
"rip him up with a knife." Accused did
not deny having used the threatening
language, but pleaded that he had received
great provocation. Accused was ordered
to find sureties of £20 to keep the peace
for a period of six months, or go to gaol
for six weeks.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/108088397
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Arthur has an entry in the Darlinghurst Gaol Entrance book, 9 April 1895
Threatening language.
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Another crew list on Ancestry. NSW Unassisted
"River Falloch", arriving Sydney in April 1895, from Liverpool
Also a transcription on Mariners and Ships in Australian Waters
http://marinersandships.com.au/1895/04/018riv.htm
Includes the unfortunate lad William Croysdale.
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Report of his of his death. May 10, 1902 - Liverpool Weekly Courier
Says he was a “native of Wolverhampton “
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I notice that the 1896 marriage was by Licence. Have you attempted to track down the Bond and/or Allegation associated with this? They may or may not be helpful. :-\
Oh, no I haven't, but thankyou it might be worth checking :)
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No GRO index for Arthur in Staffordshire but many elsewhere.
Colin
Hi Colin, yes this is the disheartening bit, all the lancs and yorks (and beyond) records on the GRO I have pretty much eliminated as possibilities. I'm wondering if he was illegitimate registered under mothers name and perhaps assumed paternal name later on, but how to find out?
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Thanks for the welcome, the shipping info is very interesting, and probably is my Arthur. I never thought to look further afield as I had no proof he did anything other than local work til now.
The Lisbonese crew list does point to long hall trips so I guess he was away a lot. Ironically, after his death Hannah remarried, had 4 more kids and they emigrated to Australia ~1912. I wonder if tales of Aus put the idea in Hannah's head.
Still, Wolverhampton, but no trace in Staffs for now. :(
Welcome to Rootschat.
For general info
Marriage 30 March 1896 in Liverpool
Arthur was 34, Sailmaker, residence 34 Strand Street
Image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L93N-X9KQ-N
Baptism of daughter Elizabeth Maud, 22 Oct 1900
Abode Denison St. Arthur still a Sailmaker
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9YL-GQDP-F
The Liverpool crew list may be the Lisbonense in 1901
A Marsden, 40, born W'hampton, home address 41 Denison St. Last ship Bernard. Capacity AB.
You would think his occupation would help.
Another crew list on Ancestry. NSW Unassisted
"River Falloch", arriving Sydney in April 1895, from Liverpool
Arthur Marsden, Station Sails, 33, of what nation America
Could it be him? :-\
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Looking at the tree on Ancestry.....
On his Marriage 30 March 1896 - Arthur gives his age as 34 years
On his Burial 4 June 1902 - Arthur's age is given as 41 years.
? Assume therefore, his birthday must have been between 30 March and 4 June 1861 i.e. second quarter.... and his father John could have worked in any County on the Railways, and children born in different Counties (as my family did).
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There is a John Marsden employed by London and North Western Railways station listed as Hampton (expanded to Wolverhampton by someone but not convinced its right) resident 14.11.1856 and a J Marsden (porter) dismissed from service in 1860 who was working at Colwich
Willow x
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There are several Arthur Marstons registered under the Wolverhampton district I wonder if the name has migrated slightly
Arthur Edwin 1859 - parents William & Eliza
Arthur 1859 - parents Charles & Fanny
Arthur Albert Leonard 1862 - died 1863
William Arthur 1862 - parents Jonah & Cecilia
Arthur James 1864
Arthur Charles Williams 1865 = parents Edward & Charlotte
Willow x
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IF on 4 April 1895 Arthur's age was given as 33 ... http://marinersandships.com.au/1895/04/018riv.htm
AND on the 9 April 1895 newspaper clipping his age is given as 34... https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/108088397
his birthday would have been between 5 and 9 April! ;D
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Have you (or the genealogist) followed up on Arthur FARMER, born Apr-May-Jun 1861 at Wolverhampton and listed as a nursechild, 0, in the 1861 Census at Stretton Village, Stretton, Staffs, registration district Penkridge, with Jane FYKE, 63, widowed (head), Harried FOWLER, 20, widowed (daughter), and Jane FOWBEK, 1, single (granddaughter). I'm not sure the surnames are correct (info on FamilySearch https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7C6-9PK).
A bit of info about the other household members has been discussed https://www.GenesReunited.com.au/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1257647
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Hi
This mat be him but his surname is Smith.
Arthur Smith born Wolverhampton 24.7.1877 on ship Altcar
First ship boy Till 1st July 1879 FW Harvey Lemon and co
Sailing ship
Registered Liverpool
But that doesn't help with his parents.
Ciderdrinker
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Hi
This mat be him but his surname is Smith.
Arthur Smith born Wolverhampton 24.7.1877 on ship Altcar
First ship boy Till 1st July 1879 FW Harvey Lemon and co
Sailing ship
Registered Liverpool
But that doesn't help with his parents.
Ciderdrinker
Hi,
I don't understand. Are you saying Arthur MARSDEN was born SMITH, and that he was born on board of a ship? Or born at Wolverhampton? This date of birth (1877) is not consistent with Arthur MARSDEN's age given at his marriage (34 on 30 March 1896) and death (41 on 4 June 1902) records, i.e. 1861.
I have been looking for his father, John MARSDEN...
I have built the tree of a John Marsden on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/KDSK-L7G
John MARSDEN married Appeline HINDMARSH in 1845 in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. They had 2 daughters, Appeline born in 1852 and died in 1853, and Jane Ann, b. 1854, married James Harrison in 1882. His wife died in March 1861 in Durham (her birthplace).
John was living with his daughter Jane Ann, aged 6, as boarders at Melbourne st, All Saints, Newcastle-upon-Tyne in 1861 wich makes me think his wife was ill and died at her parents' place.
He married Ann Layton in Nov 1861 and died in 1893 (Newcastle-upon-Tyne).
Occupation:
1881: Foreman Goods Station Ne On Railway
1891: N E R Goods Station
John MARSDEN's name, date of death (1893), and occupation (Railway Foreman) are consistent with the information given by Arthur on his marriage record.
Maybe John's fist wife, Appeline, died after giving birth to Arthur? Maybe he had an affair? Maybe he had a son with his soon-to-be wife, Ann Layton, before marriage?
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Hi
Sorry for the confusion
There is an Arthur Smith born in 1861 at Wolverhampton who signs up for the merchant Navy.
His first ship is in 1877 and he is on it for 2 years until 1879.
The Ship is the Altcar out of Liverpool.
Given Arthur Marsden was born 1861 in Wolverhampton and should have had a seamans ticket ,who does there not seem to be one for an Arthur Marsden?
Arthur Smith is the nearest I can find.
Ciderdrinker
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Okay, thanks for the explanation. Are you referring to Arthur Joseph SMITH? Have you tried to track him down? Would a sailmaker need to have a 'seamans ticket'?
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I wonder if there was an inquest after his death (5 May 1902) given that he was buried one month later (4 June 1902)? Where could I find this information?
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IF on 4 April 1895 Arthur's age was given as 33 ... http://marinersandships.com.au/1895/04/018riv.htm
AND on the 9 April 1895 newspaper clipping his age is given as 34... https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/108088397
his birthday would have been between 5 and 9 April! ;D
And that would explain why he can't be found on the 1861 census (at least) because it happened on 7 April.
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In case you don't have this info already...
Liverpool Weekly Courier, 10 May 1902
Sad Affair At The Mersey Bar
"A deck hand named Arthur Marsden, who was employed on board the hopper Mountjoy, chartered by Messrs. Pearson, dock contractors, Queen's Dock, has met his death under very sad circumstances. He was working on board the hopper, which was operating at the bar, when he was knocked down by a heavy sea, and before aid could be rendered he was washed overboard and drowned. The deceased, who was a native of Wolverhampton, leaves a young widow and child. He had been engaged on this hopper since January."
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Death registration:
Arthur Marsden (age 41) Apr-Jun 1902, Liverpool vol 8b p 30
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for posting. Yes, I have this info. I wonder if the other newspaper notice of his death has more info? I don't have access to British Newspaper Archive website. If his navy file was wrong regarding birthplace, the newspapers would have published the info given by his employers, I reckon? I've seen on FindMyPast that one Wolverhampton (Parish of Tettenhal) file from the 1861 census is missing, maybe that's why we can't find his father John Marsden.
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The other newspaper article I can see was in the Liverpool Daily Post on 9 May 1902. Basically says the same thing.
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Thanks!
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1887 Gore's directory of Liverpool, page 495:
Marsden Arthur beerseller 27 Kitchen st., W
______ John railway checker 37 Garston Old Salt Works, S
______ John railway porter 3 Window lane Garston, S
Arthur is also mentioned in the 1888 directory, same address.
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Until 1885 the beerseller at 27 Kitchen st was Annie Godfrey. In 1886 no one is at this address, and John Marsden, railway checker (machinist in the street entry), appears at 3 Window lane Garston. In 1887-1888 Arthur Marsden is the beerseller at 27 Kitchen st. In 1889 both Arthur and John Marsden (checker) are gone.
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1894 Gore's directory of Liverpool
Marsden Arthur warehouseman 39 Farnworth st. Kens'ton, E
_______ John railway clerk 6 Norgate st. Sleepers hill, N
Nothing until 1900.
Interestingly, a Dorothea Marsden appears in 1896-1898 at 35 Upper Beckwith st. Birkenhead. Arthur's daughter Elizabeth Maud(e) adopted the forename Dorothea after she emigrated to Australia.
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Living at 35 Upper Beckwith st, Birkenhead:
Dorothea Marsden, aka Dorothy Marston (Marsdon) married to Jonathan Marsden, aka Jonathan Marston (Marsdon).
Arthur could have had his name changed or mispelled as well.
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Arthur Marsden (publican of Kitchen Street) and Charlotte Parr (widow of Toxteth Park) were married on 14 June 1886 at St James Church, Toxteth.
Charlotte was supposedly 28 years old at the time and said to be daughter of a mariner called Edward Richardson.
Going back in time, we find that Charlotte Richardson (19, daughter of Edward Richardson) and James Parr (age 20, son of Robert Parr) were married on 15 Sept 1873 at St John the Bapist, Toxteth.
Publican Arthur Marsden was said to be the son of another publican called George Marsden.
But he was 23 years old in 1886 and basically the same age as 'our' Arthur.
And the signature on the marriage register is suspiciously similar to his as well.
I can't find Charlotte in 1891.
But there's a possible sighting of her in 1901. A married 44 year old woman called Charlotte Marston is living in Wednesfield, Staffs, supposedly as the 'wife' of a man called William Chidley. Census also says she was born in Willenhall.
So...
Did our Arthur first marry Charlotte in 1886?
Did they split up?
Did he commit bigamy when he married Hannah in 1896?
Did he conceal his father's real name in order to partially conceal his identity?
Not sure whether all the dots join up.
Anyone want to have a bash?
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Charlotte Marsden, buried 24 Nov 1892, aged 38, Toxteth Park Cemetery, Sec. 8, Grave 78. Could it be her?
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Name Arthur Marsden
Sex Male
Father's Name George Marsden
Mother's Name Susannah Marsden
Event Type Christening
Event Date 1862
Event Place Newbold, Derbyshire, England, United Kingdom
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There's a David Marsden, b. 1830 in Chester (St. Oswald), mother Elizabeth (spinster). He married Mary, and their first two sons, Alfred Henry (1852) and William Henry (1859) were born in Wolverhampton. David was a Railway Porter at the time, but further on he was a hatter & furrier.
I wonder if he had a brother John?
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I think you should definitely look into him being a child of a single mother
Father's name on birth certificate can be wrong because the groom doesn't know or because he wants to be more respectable .
The first name & profession could be of an uncle grandfather or step father
Wolverhampton birthplace also could be what he's been told .if he moved as a child and his father died young
Good luck with your search .
Btw Have any of his descendants taken a dna test ?
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Signature of the man who married Charlotte Parr in 1886...
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Signature of the man who married Hannah Thomas in 1896
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Those signatures look quite different to me .
I would say 2 different men.
But maybe more experienced handwriting experts will comment.
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I'd agree with brigidmac - two different signatures.
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I think you should definitely look into him being a child of a single mother
Father's name on birth certificate can be wrong because the groom doesn't know or because he wants to be more respectable .
The first name & profession could be of an uncle grandfather or step father
Wolverhampton birthplace also could be what he's been told .if he moved as a child and his father died young
Good luck with your search .
Btw Have any of his descendants taken a dna test ?
Thanks, I agree! Regarding DNA, you would have to ask the OP. I'm not related to Arthur, I was just researching his wife Hannah who turned out to be 'Melbourne's most notorious woman' in the 1920's. I love mysteries!
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I agree, different signatures. Arthur and Charlotte's tree is on FamilySearch.
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From FamilySearch
Event place: Gorton, Lancashire
1881 census
John Marsden, 54, head, married, b. at sea
Emma Marsden, 36, wife, married, b. Nantwich, Cheshire
Frank Marsden, 20, son, single, b. Barslem (sic), Staffordshire
Ellen Marsden, 16, daughter, single, b. Derbyshire
John J. Marsden, 3, son, single, b. Manchester, Lancashire
1891 census
John Marsden, 74, head, married, b. Staffordshire
Emma Marsden, 47, wife, married, b. Cheshire
Frank Marsden, 27, son, single, b. Staffordshire
Mary Marsden, 10, daughter, single, b. Lancashire
John Marsden, 13, son, single, b. Cheshire
Baptism record for John James Marsden
Name John James
Father's Name John Marsden
Mother's Name Emma Marsden
Event Type Christening
Event Date 7 Apr 1878
Event Place St Clement, Longsight, Lancashire, England
Event Place (Original) St Clement, Longsight, Lancashire, England
I can't see John Marsden's occupation, maybe someone could check it out in the original record? The fact that his children were born in different places could be related to his occupation (railway?). Some inconsistencies re birth places and ages. He could have had another son, born before Frank, who was already out of his household in 1881. I couldn't find them in the 1871 census.
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Occupation given as, I think, Navvy. :-\ Address: 10 Legh Place.
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Thanks BumbleB, back to square one ::)
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My comment was aimed at effegee original poster but I see they've not been on since 2021
There may be trees on ancestry or other sites which indicate whether descendants have DNA tested
I still think most likely scenario is a single parent but tree builders tend to favour named father so it looks like everyone " knows " that John Marsden railway worker exists
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My comment was aimed at effegee original poster but I see they've not been on since 2021
There may be trees on ancestry or other sites which indicate whether descendants have DNA tested
I still think most likely scenario is a single parent but tree builders tend to favour named father so it looks like everyone " knows " that John Marsden railway worker exists
Of couse, sorry!
I don't have access to Ancestry. His father's name 'John Marsden' and occupation 'Railway Foreman' are stated on Arthur's marriage certificate.
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Still trying to "Unnotify" this topic!
TY
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Arthur FARMER seems to have returned to his biological parents in 1871 (Thomas FARMER and Eliza BISHOP), so he can be eliminated from the list of potential candidates.
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Re above reply - see following thread for background
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=886341.msg7595359#msg7595359
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Welcome to Rootschat.
For general info
Marriage 30 March 1896 in Liverpool
Arthur was 34, Sailmaker, residence 34 Strand Street
Image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L93N-X9KQ-N
Baptism of daughter Elizabeth Maud, 22 Oct 1900
Abode Denison St. Arthur still a Sailmaker
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9YL-GQDP-F
The Liverpool crew list may be the Lisbonense in 1901
A Marsden, 40, born W'hampton, home address 41 Denison St. Last ship Bernard. Capacity AB.
You would think his occupation would help.
Another crew list on Ancestry. NSW Unassisted
"River Falloch", arriving Sydney in April 1895, from Liverpool
Arthur Marsden, Station Sails, 33, of what nation America
Could it be him? :-\
Hi Jon,
I don't have an Ancestry subscription, but I was wondering if this entry is related to 'our' Arthur, hence 'of what Nation: America' from the NSW crew list? Could he have been in America(s) or other ports all of this time (1883-1895), hence his absence from the UK censuses?
Marsden Arthur 1861 - 1883 United States, Passenger and Crew Lists Americas