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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: ianhughscott on Friday 18 June 21 11:21 BST (UK)
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I am trying to confirm a family on the 1861 census in Dundee. There are a couple of anomalies but perhaps some explanation can be offered.
One of the family members that fits is 13 years old. His occupation appears to be an Apprentice (Ap.) something or other.
Later in his life, if it is the same person, his occupation would always be listed as a "Wood Turner."
My biases say that the magnified text in the image is "Turner" for Apprentice Turner - but I'm seeking other opinions as well as to what the text reads.
Thanks so much!
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Looks like "Turner" to me.
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Thanks Bumblebee!
The strange thing about this family is that the "head" is listed as the wife/mother and her husband does not appear - but I know he passed away 4 years AFTER the census.
Her place of birth matches, and there are several children that match - but also a couple of additions that I cannot find birth registrations for, that match the parent's names.
This person that is 13 matches though. If it is the correct family, he is my great-great grandfather :)
But I have seen what "jumping to conclusions" can also lead to. Big mistakes :)
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As has been said many times - the census return is a snapshot of who was in residence at a particular time. Perhaps father/husband was working away from home at the time, or there is also the possibility that he was "missed off" the return. Keep your options open ;)
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Absolutely! I've discovered this previously - my grandfather was not at his normal residence, but was found on the census, at his uncle's residence in Belfast in one census :)
The big issue with this census is the additional 2 children that I can't find a birth registration for along with the father not being on it. Hence, trying to cover all the bases including the apprentice occupation of the 13 year old.
Thanks so much for your thoughts and encouragement!
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The children you can't find registrations for - are they younger than the 13 year old? I don't know anything about Scottish records, but could they be "adopted" although I see that official adoption wasn't introduced in Scotland until 1930, and birth registrations in 1855, so plenty of loopholes.
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Thanks for the interesting suggestion! Never even considered adoption - however, having some ideas of their family circumstances, I think adoption is a low possibility. But I absolutely will keep that in mind if I find nothing else!
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Though I think it does look like "Turner", it might be useful to see other examples of these letters elsewhere on the page/census, eg another capital T.
It looks like 'sp' rather than 'ap', though 'ap' makes sense in this context.
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I see Turner too.
Carol
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A woodturner, so furniture work, bowls, bagpipes etc'.
Skoosh.
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A woodturner, so furniture work, bowls, bagpipes etc'.
Skoosh.
Yes - I have in my possession and that has been passed down, a wooden bowl that he made. He apparently dabbled in metal turning as well - a handmade brass candle holder has also been passed on to me.
My main reason for trying to verify what is written in the census record is to confirm this is the family I'm researching. The census record has the right mother, and 3 children - and I know that one would become a woodturner.
However, the census record does not show the father. It also has new children I was not aware of.
So, looking for clues that this either is or is not the family :)
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The children you can't find registrations for - are they younger than the 13 year old? I don't know anything about Scottish records, but could they be "adopted" although I see that official adoption wasn't introduced in Scotland until 1930, and birth registrations in 1855, so plenty of loopholes.
So, most of the old Scottish "birth" records are actually a record of their baptism. Presbyterians and Roman Catholics both baptized children as infants, and the church kept a record of that, and usually recorded the birth date as well.
I just realized something - it's possible that some in the family I am researching would not have a record of baptism.... they were among the early "Brethern" Christian fellowship in Dundee - and this Christian group did not believe in child baptism; instead immersion of believers only AFTER they had expressed a faith in personal conversion and faith in Jesus Christ as their "personal" Savior.
Something others perhaps might want to consider when unable to find a birth/baptism record before civil registration began.
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You mentioned that father had died four years after the 1851 census? Was this 1855 or 1854? An 1855 death cert would normally give you how many children father had (their names and ages when he died).
Monica
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You mentioned that father had died four years after the 1851 census? Was this 1855 or 1854? An 1855 death cert would normally give you how many children father had (their names and ages when he died).
Monica
Hi Monica - no, it is the 1861 census, not 1851. The death cert is 1865, lists his address, his occupation, his wife's name, and parents' names including mother's maiden name. No place for children (other than it was one of them, his son, that reported/registered the death).
I may have other research to do on the census. It only provides an address of Stewarts Court - but there were several street names in Stewarts Court, Dundee. The death cert has Gellatly Street, Stewart's court, but the census does not seem to have that information that I can see.
I realize the family in the census is probably the one I'm researching - but I don't like "probables" if there are ways to get to "definites." :)
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Sorry, misread the 1861 for 1851! Pity. All 1855 certificates, the first year of Scottish official registration, carried a lot of extra details. By 1856, certs had been modified and the info collected reduced.
Monica
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1874 photo of the general area www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/88116/stewarts-court-looking-seagate-towards-gellatly-street-dundee
The family showed at Seagate in 1851 didn't they?
Monica
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Also, a description of the place names coming up for you https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/forfarshire-angus-os-name-books-1857-1861/forfar-angus-volume-28/41
Monica
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1874 photo of the general area www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/88116/stewarts-court-looking-seagate-towards-gellatly-street-dundee
The family showed at Seagate in 1851 didn't they?
Monica
You are very observant! :) Yes, they were at Seagate in 1851.
Thanks for linking to the photo. Doesn't look like a place I'd like to live.... imagining living in such a neighbourhood and having lots of children... I think I would have stayed in Dysart :)
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Also, a description of the place names coming up for you https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/forfarshire-angus-os-name-books-1857-1861/forfar-angus-volume-28/41
Monica
Enjoyed seeing that! The map of Dundee was really interesting and helpful as well, that's linked to below the information. Thank you, Monica!
Ian