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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Diana on Wednesday 16 June 21 16:48 BST (UK)
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Hi All, This is Soho confusing I hope you can bear with me.
I am trying to find out about a John Thomson born 2 Sept 1868 (illegitimate) in the Barnhill Poorhouse Springburn to a Bridget Thomson. the birth entry off Scotlands People states she was a
domestic Servant
Domesile: 580 Gallowgate Street Glasgow.
The Governor signed to say he was born in the poorhouse. OK that does not look to bad ;)
NOW TO JOHN'S MARRIAGE
John Thomson married Charlotte Campbell on the 19 Aug 1891 the address for both was 75 Whitevale Street Glasgow.
FOR JOHN it states Father George Thomson Deceased Weaver. (remember his birth said illegitimate)
Mother Bridget Cairns (previously Thomson) MS Duff I cannot find any marriage
for a George Thomson to Bridget Duff /Duffy. I have found a marriage for a
Bridget DUFFY to
Marriage
16 Sept 1867 • St John's Catholic Chapel, Portugal Street, Hutchesontown, Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
Patrick Cairns
(1839–1917)
I have tried to find the census from 1851 -1891 for John, Bridget George to no avail.
I would also like the details of when she was admitted and discharged from the Poorhouse.
As I do not live in Scotland any help and advice would be much appreciated
Diana
1 Source
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Hi Diana
John's 1868 birth reg should have shown mother as Bridget Duffy not Thomson. She should have shown under maiden name.
Regarding her stay at the Poorhouse, sounds like she was using the hospital facilities for the birth of son John rather than being an inmate there. This is re-enforced by the usual residence details on John's birth reg for his mother.
Monica
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There are a couple of births showing on the Family Search indexes for children to Patrick Cairns and Bridget Duffy:
1871 - Agnes www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQQR-RMQ
1872 - Ann www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQQR-632
Monica
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Some more details here on this family https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/K45F-V3W/ann-cairns-1872-1950
Should be able to find them on the censuses with this info.
Added - 1871 below:
Mary Hollachan 52
Jane Hollachan 16 Daughter
Elizabeth Hollachan 7 Daughter
Patrick Cairns 30 Son-in-law Stacker In Factory Cotton b. Glasgow
Bridget Cairns 29 Daughter b. Ireland
James Cairns 11 Grandson
Agnes Cairns 3 Months Grandaughter
Address: Old Toll House, Glasgow Govan/Hutchesontown
Curious about the James Cairns above and whether this could be an error if this couple is connected to your John Thomson? Re the 10 yr old James, Patrick could have been previously married www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQNF-9MZ
The problem with this all is that John would have been conceived after Patrick and Bridget married going by the dates...
Monica
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Hi and thank you Monica.
I am actually just looking at familysearch as your message popped up.
under his date and time of birth is says the address as Barnhill poorhouse, was this usual even if it was the hospital side??
I will check out the links you have sent me.
Di
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1871 census
Household Members Age Relationship
Mary Hollachan 52 Head
Jane Hollachan 16 Daughter
Elizabeth Hollachan 7 Daughter
Patrick Cairns 30 Son-in-law
Bridget Cairns 29 Daughter
James Cairns 11 Grandson
Agnes Cairns 3 Mo Grandaughter (Granddaughter)
Joseph Mcf Smith 32 Lodger
James Hood 34 Lodger
Adnie Boyd 23 Lodger
Phillip Hughes 26 Lodger
Address: Old Toll House
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There is no guarantee that the John born in the poor house is your John
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Which of John and Charlotte's children are you descended from?
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Monica & Sancti,
Than you in all the years I have been looking at Familysearch i have never seen the link you sent me.
I still cannot find John Thomson on any of the census, The ones i did find for 1868 and all living with relatives and none of the surnames match any in the family.
How can Mary Hollachan be his mother in law if her maiden was Duffy?
I am doing this for a friend as a favour. she is decendent from :
John Thomson b1868 marr Charlotte Campbell 19 Aug 1891
John Miller Scott Thomson b 9 april 1901 marr Lavinin French Armstrong 18 July 1919
John Miller Scott Thomson b 1920 marr Margaret Smith
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Transcript of John's record
First name(s)
John
Last name
Thomson
Admission year
1868
Admission date
07 Jul 1868
Death year-
Institution
Barony Poorhouse, Barnhill, Glasgow
Place
Glasgow
County
Lanarkshire
Country
Scotland
Archive
National Records of Scotland
Archive reference
MC7/2 p. 460
I have just found this on Find My Past ??
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John Thomson was not born yet though. You have his birth as being 2 Sept 1868.
Monica
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Sorry this is the one I should have copied
First name(s)
John
Last name
Thomson
Admission year
1869
Admission date
19 Apr 1869
Death year-
Institution
Gartnavel Royal Asylum
Place
Glasgow
County
Lanarkshire
Country
Scotland
Archive
National Records of Scotland
Archive reference
MC7/2 p. 530
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Gartnavel Royal Asylum was a mental health facility. I don't think this entry connects to John Thomson born the year before :-\
From your previous posts,
The address on his marriage cert looks like
75 Whitevale Street Glasgow district of Camlachie
John was 23 Charlotte was 19 both at the same address.(he was a widower)
Checking 75 Whitevale Street in the 1891 census and no sign of John at that address. A number of households showing at this address.
You mention the marriage reg states he was married before?
Monica
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You can tell I do not know Glasgow :)
Yes on his marriage to Charlotte Campbell which i am just looking at to try to work out his occupation
It also states that he was a Widower in brackets baring in mind he was only 23 when he married Charlotte.
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If you can post a clip to show his occupation, we can help with figuring it out!
Guess to family names as witnesses? Was the marriage RC or other denomination?
Monica
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Birth registered in Bridgeton
Have you viewed it to see address?
THOMSON
JOHN MILLER SCO
M
1901
644/1 765
Bridgeton
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I have forgotten how to attach a cert
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John Miller Scott Thomson was born 1920 at 84 East John Street Glasgow
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I think Sancti was referring to the John born in 1901.
Have they been found in 1901?
Monica
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Hi John Miller Scottv Thomson born 9 April 1901 at 43 Reid Street Glasgow
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I have got 8 pages of Scotlands People and not one of the census are right.
The births are fair also the marriages
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Johns Occupation I hope i have done it right this time
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Thanks, Diana. His occupation is showing as a Hammerman.
A little on the what this entailed here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=307160.0
Monica
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Thank you Monica,
That is one thing solved.
Since we last messaged i have been going through the census on Find My Past, I am slso with Ancesrty i cannot seem to find any correct ones at all. i have most of John and Charlotte's children and even put there names in but nothing For place I have even just put Lanark Scotland
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An online tree has a son Hugh Holt Thomson born 1910
1911 census on SP has this
THOMSON
HUGH H
1911
M
0
644/6 15/ 28
Springburn
Lanark
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By cross referencing the records it does not appear to be the same family
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I saw the tree too, Sancti. It only has children post 1901. Wondered whether they had children between 1891-1901?
Diana, have you viewed the 1911? It should show how many children they had (alive/deceased) and years of marriage (you have their marriage, so this is just confirmation really).
Have you been able to find any trace of them in 1901?
Monica
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Can you identify the names of the witnesses at his marriage?
It looks like John Thomson signed with his mark (X)
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A Charlotte Campbell Thomson was born in Camlachie area in 1910. Their daughter called after mother?
Added: Not surprisingly, I think the family are in Camlachie. Entry possibly over two pages?
Charlotte aged 37 ref 644/2 38/ 17
Charlotte aged 0 ref 644/2 38/ 18
Monica
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There is this marriage in 1862
THOMSON
BRIDGET
&
DUFF
GEORGE
1862
644/2 76
High Church
If George Duff died prior to John Thomson being conceived then his birth would be illegitimate
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The Hugh Holt Thomson born 1910 I have from my friends Aunt said he married Margaret C Strain.
John and Charlotte had the following children which i have tried to check out on the census
John b 1901
Isabella 1902
William 1904
Charlotte C 1910
Hugh Holt 1910
Now out of those you would think i would find at least one ???
Yes i have tried the 1911 for all these children aslo.
I also thought they may have had children between 1891 and 1901. There was no war then.
arrr John Miller Scott Thomson b 9 april 1901 married Lavinia French Armstrong 18 July 1919 address for him Maryhill Barracks. apprently he was in the 1st bat Agyll and Southerland Highlanders. I did contact the museum they said without his number you are looking for a neddle in a haystack.
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George Thomson
B:abt 1826 Scotland
D:21 Aug 1877 Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
That was of Ancesrty a while ago
On Johns amrriage it states her maiden name as Duff ?
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John Thomson
in the 1881 Scotland Census
1881 Scotland CensusNo Image
Text-only collection
Add or update information
Report a problem
DetailSource
Name: John Thomson
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relationship: Housekeeper Son (Housekeeper)
Gender: Male
Where born: Glasgow, Lanark Shire
Registration Number: 644/2
Registration district: Camlachie
Civil parish: Glasgow St John
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 79 Whitevale St
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 19
Household schedule number: 32
Line: 22
Roll: cssct1881_217
Household Members Age Relationship
Hugh Cairns
49 Head
Bridget Thomson
40 Housekeeper
John Thomson 12 Housekeeper Son (Housekeeper)
George Lavery
56 Boarder
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Bridget recorded as widow, born Ireland
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1891 census at same address
Household Members Age Relationship
Hugh Cairns 59 Head
Bridget Duff 54 Housekeeper
Mary A Thomson 1 Adopted Daur (Adopted)
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Possible death
THOMSON
BRIDGET
66
1908
644/3 774
Calton (Glasgow)
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Hi Sancti,
I posted this on further back. What do you think ?
maybe she was working for Hugh and met his brother!!!
i did try to chec this out a few weeks ago
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I think the Cairns refers to Hugh and John may have thought they were married
Have you checked the possible death for Bridget?
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Yes I have checked the death's for her.
Marriage to patrick Cairns
16 Sep 1867 • St John's Catholic Chapel, Portugal Street, Hutchesontown, Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
Bridget Duffy
(1840–1916)
1 Source
Bridget Duffy
1840–1916
BIRTH 12 FEB 1840 • Armagh, Armagh, Northern Ireland
DEATH 18 JAN 1916 • 26 High Street, Petone, Wellington, New Zealand
2nd great-grandmother
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Have you viewed this death on Scotland's People?
THOMSON
BRIDGET
66
1908
644/3 774
Calton (Glasgow)
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Yes i did see that
but I keep going bac to Johns marriage where he says his Mother is now Cairns
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Sancti and Moria,
Thank you so much for your help today. My eyes are so tired as I have been at this all day.
i am off for a glass of wine to clear my mind then sleep, resume tomorrow.
I just do not know how i cannot find any of them on neither Ancestry, Find my Past, Scotlands People.
I must be doing something wrong, i just cannot see the wood for the trees so to speak.
Again thank you both
Di
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He may have believed that they were married and also got the Thomson and Duff names the wrong way round.
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Mistakes certainly creep in and they make things more diffult when they do :-\
However, with the info you and Sancti have found over the last recent posts, I do think you are now properly on the right trail for John ::)
I don't think the family of Patrick Cairns and Bridget Duff is connected. I think the 1881 census entry you found is really helpful.
Monica
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...My eyes are so tired as I have been at this all day.
i am off for a glass of wine to clear my mind then sleep, resume tomorrow...
Sounds like a plan! Enjoy your evening over there. This can certainly wait till tomorrow. If I find anything I will post. Don't feel you need to respond but wait till tomorrow ;)
Monica
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John Thomson married Charlotte Campbell on the 19 Aug 1891 the address for both was 75 Whitevale Street Glasgow.
From your first post on this thread, the address where John was living at the time of his marriage. His mother Bridget with Hugh Cairns is showing as living in 1891 (and 1881) at 79 Whitevale Street.
Monica
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1911 census
It looks like Charlotte is living at Great Eastern Road, Camlachie, described as married and head of house. As luck would have it she is near bottom of page and it only shows sons John and James
Married 21 years, having 11 children but only 5 still living
Charlotte, born Rutherglen
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Thank you both,
you are so kind. Living alone this is my hobby and it staves away lonilessness i just love helping other people. x
Charlotte Campbell
1873–
BIRTH 03 AUG 1873 • Rutherglen, Lanarkshire, Scotland
DEATH Glasgow, Scotland
great-grandmother Add MyTreeTags™
This is what I have on the Ancestry tree for Andrea
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Searching for a death for Charlotte using other name Campbell, I found this.
THOMSON
CHARLOTTE
98
1972
605/ 408
Glasgow, Martha St
Too recent to view online
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Yes I found this also,
don't know wether to ask her to send for it
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I think I have found John in 1871 with Thomson maternal grandparents:
Andrew Thomson 50 Bricklayer Labourer b. Ireland
Margaret Thomson 47 b. Ireland
Mary Thomson 17 powerloom weaver daughter b. Glasgow
Bridgt Duff 28 powerloom weaver daughter married b. Ireland
Susan Duff 8 granddaughter b. Glasgow www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQWH-98K
John Kennedy 3 Grandson b. Glasgow
Address: 21 East Hope St, Glasgow/ Calton
From this looks like reputed father for John was a Kennedy perhaps. Not uncommon for illegitimate children to flip between surnames.
Monica
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It might be worthwhile looking at the birth record of Charlotte Campbell Thomson to see what info it gives on John
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John Thomson married Mary Black on 14 Sept 1888 in the Dennistoun area of Glasgow. Mary Ann Black/Thomson, mother's maiden name Welsh, died aged 18 the following year, 1889. The death shows in St Rollox, Glasgow. See clip below from marriage. John still showing names like he did a couple of years later:
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How can Mary Hollachan be his mother in law if her maiden was Duffy?
Maybe Mary was first married to Mr Duffy and then to Mr Hollachan?
Or maybe Mary's maiden name was Duffy, and she had Bridget illegitimately to Mr Thomson, then married Mr Hollachan?
Mary's death certificate might be quite interesting.
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What got me looking for John's first marriage was the adopted child showing with Bridget in 1891:
1891 census at same address
Household Members Age Relationship
Hugh Cairns 59 Head
Bridget Duff 54 Housekeeper
Mary A Thomson 1 Adopted Daur (Adopted)
There is this birth which I thought could fit:
MARY ANN BLACK THOMSON
1889
644/2 1395
Camlachie
So, following mother's death in 1889, baby went to live with her maternal grandmother, Bridget Thomson and shows with her in 1891.
Monica
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So, for my sake! A brief summary of what we have from this evening.
Bridget Thomson born in Ireland, came over to the Glasgow area with parents Andrew and Margaret. She married a George Duff in Glasgow in 1862. She also had a daughter that year with George Duff. No more children showing for them. Not clear whether George Duff died or abandoned her with child.
In 1868, Bridget gave birth to John Thomson at Barkhill Workhouse (you have this cert).
1871, Bridget is with her parents and sister Mary. Also with her are Susan Duff, daughter, and son John Kennedy. We can normally assume from this that reputed father was also a Kennedy (maybe even a John Kennedy?).
1881, she is showing as housekeeper (Bridget Duff, widowed) in the household of a Hugh Cairns. With her is son John Thomson.
1888, John married a Mary Ann Black. She died the following year. A daughter, also Mary Ann, born in 1889. Toddler Mary Ann showing as adopted daughter and living with maternal grandmother in 1891.
We haven't found John in 1891 census before he married.
He married Charlotte Campbell in August 1891, showing as widowed.
We haven't found John Thomson in 1901 or 1911. Charlotte has been found in 1911, no sign of John in the household but with her are five children. The children are those born from 1901 to 1910. They sadly lost 6 children over the years.
Have you found John's death reg? Sancti looks to have found Charlotte's (not sure if you had this already).
Monica
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Just a couple of other bits of info, before I close the tabs.
Charlotte was at home with father Thomas before her marriage:
Thomas Campbell 55 Agricultural Labourer b. Ireland
Margaret Campbell 21 Cotton Mill Worker b. Rutherglen
Charlotte Campbell 18 Cotton Mill Worker b. Rutherglen
Thomas Campbell 14 Cotton Mill Worker b. Rutherglen
Address: 103 Carstairs St, Glasgow/ Bridgeton
The address you have for John M S Thomson's birth on 9 April 1901 was 43 Reid Street. Charlotte's brother Samuel, wife Mary and children are showing at this address in 1901. So, Charlotte went there to give birth. The census in 1901 was on 1 April. Charlotte does not show with brother and family so John and her are still AWOL that year.
Monica
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Only possible death I can see for their children is this one
THOMSON
THOMAS
0
Mother's name CAMPBELL
1900
644/2 183
Camlachie
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John Thomson registered the birth of Charlotte Campbell Thomson 1910
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There are 2 John Thomson's registered at Great Eastern Road on 1905 V.R.'s
THOMSON
JOHN
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE NO 227 GREAT EASTERN ROAD
GLASGOW
1905
THOMSON
JOHN
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE NO 487 GREAT EASTERN ROAD
GLASGOW
1905
On the 1911 census, Charlotte is recorded as Head, living at 401 Great Eastern Road
1915 V.R.'s again have 2 John Thomson's
THOMSON
JOHN
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE NO 504 GREAT EASTERN ROAD
GLASGOW
1915
THOMSON
JOHN
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE NO 227 GREAT EASTERN ROAD
GLASGOW
1915
1920 has this record
THOMSON
CHARLOTTE
MRS
Tenant
HOUSE 105 CUMBERLAND STREET CALTON
GLASGOW
1920
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John Miller Scott Thomson b 9 april 1901 married Lavinin French Armstrong 18 July 1919
Was his father recorded as still alive on the marriage record?
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John his father was recorded as deceased
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There is a possible death for John Thomson in Calton 1919 of the right age. Unfortunately he died in a Lodging House and no details were known by Superintendent.
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Yes it does fit. Would there have been a inquest ?
Sancti,
What site are you using as I cannot find anything on the 4 sites I'm using
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Scotland's People is the only site to view copies of original records
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RCE only states
Cause of death, Natural causes, probably heart failure
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I am looking at the 1911 census for Charlotte.
It says she is Head Would John have been dead then?
It says she had 11 children and only 5 living so I am trying to see if I can get the other census seeing if any other children show up. I have 5 children from 1901-1910 It looks like they did have children soon after they married in 1891
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She is not listed as Widow on 1911 census so John was still living
View the death record for Thomas 1900 to see if it is one of their children
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Already done it, yes he was, it was a prem birth 8 months lived 1 day
The address is difficult to read looks like 86 Brook Street Glasgow
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If John believed his father was George Thomson then this could be the birth of first son
THOMSON
GEORGE
M
1892
644/2 348
Camlachie
Birth & Death of a Charlotte
THOMSON
CHARLOTTE
F
1898
644/2 104
Camlachie
THOMSON
CHARLOTTE
1
1899
644/2 411
Camlachie
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I will check them out on Scotlands People.
So far I have the correct children as following:
Thomas 1900
John 1901
James 1902
Isabella 1903 ?? not sure cannot find anything on her so far
William 1904
Hugh 1908
Charlotte C 1910
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Ok,
I have checked and printed of the right certs for John and Mary Ann Black and there daughter.
Did we find the 1901 for Charlotte ? as I have been looking and cannot find it
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Yes it does fit. Would there have been a inquest ?
No.
There is no such procedure as an inquest in Scotland.
If there was any reason to think the death was not due to natural causes there would have been a report to the Procurator Fiscal*, who would have decided whether any further investigation was necessary.
*There are no coroners in Scotland either, by the way.
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https://www.theglasgowstory.com/image/?inum=TGSE00843
http://www.mitchelllibrary.org/virtualmitchell/index.php?a=wordsearch&s=gallery&w=eastern&Go=Go
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Hi Forfarian,
Sorry I did not now there were no coroners or Inquests in Scotland, I did say I knew very little about how these things work in Scotland. Thans fo enlightening me.
Di
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Hi Forfarian,
Sorry I did not now there were no coroners or Inquests in Scotland, I did say I knew very little about how these things work in Scotland. Thans fo enlightening me.
Di
No need for apology - I just didn't want you going looking for something that doesn't exist :)
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You get the feeling that the marriage for John and Charlotte may not have gone so well...
If that is John Thomson's death that Sancti has found (and there will not be any way really to confirm) then it looks like Charlotte and John may not have lived together by then.
Re the family entry for 1901, I struggle to find it so far. With son John being born on 9 April at the address her brother Samuel is to be found on 1st April 1901 for his family's 1901 entry, Charlotte at least looks to be in Glasgow. Whether there were any living children at this time is hard to guess without finding her entry.
Monica
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Ok,
I have checked and printed of the right certs for John and Mary Ann Black and there daughter.
What did Mary Ann Black died from? She was so young at death and not long after she gave birth to daughter :-\
Monica
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She died from Pelvic Cellulitis a month after her daughter was born.
pelvic cellulitis. bacterial infection of the parametrium, occurring after childbirth or spontaneous or therapeutic abortion. It represents an extension of infection via the blood vessels and lymphatics from a primary wound infection in the external genitalia, perineum, vagina, cervix, or uterus.
Poor girl must have been in agony.
She died in the poorhouse her home address was (would you believe) 79 Whitevale Street
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Poor thing :-\
They must have living with John's mum, Bridget Thomson, at that address. Certainly where Bridget shows in 1891 with her granddaughter Mary Ann.
Can't easily find Bridget and Mary Ann in the 1901 census so far either.
Bridget's death is also hard to find. Unfortunately, Sancti, it is not the death that you thought it could be from 1908 in Calton. Nothing else really coming up to fit on SP.
Monica
Added: This looks to be a family tree on a/try for Bridget Thomson www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/108869812/person/200069204348/facts
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I have been looking all evening for Bridget and Mary Ann but cannot find them
Where were Bridget and Mary Ann Living in 1891? have you got her on any other Census.
i did find a Bridget aged 70 and Mary Ann 39 living in Dundee,
It's not them as it states Mary Ann born Dundee 1911 Census
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Morning,
Just a thought do you think at some time there could have been a P in Thomson?? I have tried alternate spellings of the surname.
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Just a thought do you think at some time there could have been a P in Thomson?? I have tried alternate spellings of the surname.
There could have been, though Thomson is by far the commoner spelling in Scotland.
If you use the Quick Search on SP to look for T*m*s*n it produces 1,261,282 results. Thomson produces 1,115,913 (88%) and Thompson 111,476 (9%). So there are 33893 (3%) with other spellings.
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WOW that is a lot to get through lol.
I am at present trying to start at the 1871 census to try and find him. Hopefully will get a few of the census done to day. This whole family is a mystery
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From earlier posts (thread getting long ::)), I think this is where we had got to with earlier census entries:
1871
Andrew Thomson 50 Bricklayer Labourer b. Ireland
Margaret Thomson 47 b. Ireland
Mary Thomson 17 powerloom weaver daughter b. Glasgow
Bridgt Duff 28 powerloom weaver daughter married b. Ireland
Susan Duff 8 granddaughter b. Glasgow www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQWH-98K
John Kennedy 3 Grandson b. Glasgow
Address: 21 East Hope St, Glasgow/ Calton
1881
Hugh Cairns 49 cotton weaver b. Ireland
Bridget Thomson 40 Housekeeper b. Ireland
John Thomson 12 Housekeeper Son (Housekeeper)
George Lavery 56 Boarder cotton weaver b. Ireland
Address: 79 Whitevale St, Glasgow/Camlachie
1891
Hugh Cairns 59 Head Hand Loom Weaver b. Ireland
Bridget Duff 54 Housekeeper b. Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Mary A Thomson 1 Adopted Daur b. Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Address: 79 Whitevale St, Glasgow/Camlachie
1851 and 1861 entries for Bridget with her family are included on that family tree link I posted earlier.
Charlotte Campbell is with her family prior to her marriage in August 1891.
So what are we missing?:
1891-1911 for John Thomson
1901 - for Bridget Thomson
1901 for Charlotte Campbell
Mary Ann Thomson b. 1889, we have her birth and 1891 entry so far.
Susan/nah Duff b. 1862, we have her birth entry on the FS index and 1871 census entry.
No confirmed deaths for John Thomson although the one found by Sancti looks a good possibilty.
Bridget Thomson, can't easily see her death so far.
Charlotte Campbell, Sancti has found her like death on the SP index (would need to be ordered given the year to be able to confirm).
Regarding John Thomson showing as a widower when he married Charlotte in 1891. We have found his 1888 marriage to Mary Ann Black, who died in 1889. The addresses on these registrations all link back to Bridget Thomson's address, 79 Whitevale St, Camlachie.
Monica
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Just as a side note. Hugh Cairns, with whom Bridget Thomson/Duff was living with for a number of years, looks to have been at 79 Whitevale Street for many years. I think this is likely him with family in 1861 (he shows at this address from at least 1861-91):
Hugh Cairns 29 Hand Loom Weaver b. Ireland
Jean Cairns 25 b. Ireland
Elizabeth Cairns 6
Margeret Cairns 10 months
Address: 79 Whitevale Street
In 1881, he is just with daughter Elizabeth. 1881-91, he has Bridget with him showing as housekeeper as we have above.
Monica
PS: Later general photos of Whitevale Street here https://vm.colinwaddell.com/search/?tags=Whitevale+Street
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View details
NAME: George Thomson
AGE: 32
BIRTH DATE: 1826
FORMER RESIDENCE: Reid Steeet, Bridgeton, Glasgow
PLACE FOUND OR EXAMINED: Barnhill Poorhouse, Glasgow
OCCUPATION: Weaver
ADMISSION DATE: 23 Feb 1858
INSTITUTION: Barony Poorhouse, Barnhill, Glasgow
ADMISSION PLACE: Lanarkshire, Scotland
NEXT OF KIN: James Thomson
NEXT OF KIN RELATION TO PATIENT: Brother
NEXT OF KIN RESIDENCE: Union Lane, Calton, Glasgow
NEXT OF KIN OCCUPATION: Weaver
REGISTER TYPE: Notices of Admissions
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THOMSON
MARY ANN
65
BLACK
2002
606/ 797
Glasgow, Martha St
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This is what I have found for Charlotte
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Good find, Diana.
This is possibly the second marriage:
William HOWITT and Charlotte CAMPBELL
1918
644/10 139
Blythswood
So, John's death before this date.
Monica
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The death you found for a Mary Ann Thomson, mother BLACK not connected. Mary Ann Thomson, daughter of John T and Mary Ann Black was born in 1889.
Monica
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HOWITT
CHARLOTTE
98
1972
605/ 408
Glasgow, Martha St
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Charlottes 2nd marriage come up on her son Hugh Holt Thomsons marriage in 1931
sssssttill no further forward.
I am trying to find all the other childrens marriages to see if John was alive or dead :)
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He showed as deceased on son John W S's 1919 marriage? Likely given the ages of the Thomson children born from 1901, John W S's marriage would be the first one?
Monica
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On the 1919 marriage for their son John, is Charlotte recorded as now Howitt?
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John Thomson died on 15 August 1916. Clip below which I think tidies up and reconfirms what has been found on this thead:
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Sancti, as you can see from the address, this is one of the John's you mentioned from the VRs. The 1915 VR is his last as I couldn't see him after (as we now know, he died the following year).
Diana, I think everything is covered on this cert:
His two marriages to Mary Ann Black and Charlotte Campbell
The issue of his parent/s. Although married twice and giving the same info re his parents, John is fact was the illigitimate child of Bridget Thomson. If anything, his reputed father likely a Kennedy (given John's given surname on his 1871 census entry with his mother, half sister Susan and his mother's family).
The birth you have in 1868 with mother showing as Bridget Thomson is correct. Birth registrations always give the mother's maiden name.
So, apart from censuses for him for 1891-1911, you now have all the other key details I think.
Monica
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Great finds Monica.
I think the George Thomson Poor House admission record is totally unconnected to the father of John Thomson.
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John Thomson did a real jumble relating to his parentage on his two marriage regs didn't he. He had all the names, just not connected in the right order (Thomson/Duff/Cairns - his mum was Bridget Thomson, married George Duff who disappears after birth of daughter Susannah, who may have taken up with a Kennedy, father of John, and then starts living with Hugh Cairns for many years)....and I don't think John knew or remembered who his father actually was (thinking here of the surname Kennedy). He may also have simply wanted to cover up the fact his birth was illegitimate.
His death cert has certainly confirmed what we were expecting I think.
Monica
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Just to add...
John was not alone in jumbling up his parental details on his marriage regs. Half sister Susannah was the same ::)
Susan Duff married a James Holt in 1883. Father's details correct, a George Duff...but mother Elizabeth Wilson.
However, details for her death reg from 1903, where daughter Margaret was the informant, father the George D and mother Bridget Thomson. All well again ;)
Notice that Bridget Thomson is showing as deceased by 1903. I think Hugh Cairns died in Camlachie in 1895.
John and Charlotte's son, Hugh Holt Thomson, I wonder if middle name Holt connects to Susan's family. Holt surname not that common in Scotland.
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18 July1919 marriage of John Thomson to Lavinia French Armstrong Charlotte's name was Thomson.
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Hi,
Chrlottes name on John and Lavinia's Marriage cert WAS Thomson
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Maybe John didn't know his mother had re-married or just gave the registrar wrong info
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I'm coming to the conclusion only she knows ;D
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[Cairns Doole.FTW] Signed her Marriage certificate with an X - she could not write Bridget was a short squat little woman who spoke with a broad Scottish accent Because of letters from Scotland asking for money, Bridget stopped contact with her Scottish relatives Louisa her daughter left school at 10 to look after her mother father and family according to her daughter Jocelyn as told to K M Patrick Mervyn Mathiasen 44 Wilton Rd. Papatoetoe. 11/9/1983 Dear Mrs K Patrick, I thought I should clear up the little confusion re the mother of Bridget Cairns. Ann's birth certificate gives her mother as Bridget Cairns, and her birthplace as Ireland. The 1871 census for this area of Glasgow follows: 1871 census for Crown St. Glasgow 64410 Book 14 Schedule 72 at Old Toll house. Mary Hollachan Head widow 50 Born Ireland Jane Hollachan Daughter 16 " Glasgow Elizabeth Hollachan Daughter 7 " Glasgow Patrick Cairns Son in law 30 " Glasgow Bridget Daughter 29 " Ireland James Grandson 11 " Glasgow Agnes Granddaughter 3 Months " Glasgow Bridget's marriage certificate gives her mother as Agnes Craig I have never written to Scotland to try and solve this riddle but would suggest the birth details of the youngest daughter as best bet. Yours faithfully Mervyn Mathiasen
Yes I have checked the death's for her.
Marriage to patrick Cairns
16 Sep 1867 • St John's Catholic Chapel, Portugal Street, Hutchesontown, Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
Bridget Duffy
(1840–1916)
1 Source
Bridget Duffy
1840–1916
BIRTH 12 FEB 1840 • Armagh, Armagh, Northern Ireland
DEATH 18 JAN 1916 • 26 High Street, Petone, Wellington, New Zealand
2nd great-grandmother
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hi diana
this is our direct ancestor and our grgrmo and our grgrfa so please contact us about heer best wishes
tony cairns in new zealand