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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Carmel000 on Sunday 30 May 21 06:24 BST (UK)
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What happened to James Patrick Ryan, born in Frogmore, NSW in 1881?
I’m looking for information about James Patrick Ryan, born on 1 August 1881 in the town of Frogmore/Frogmoor in the District of Boorowa/Burrowa, NSW, Australia. Parents: Patrick Ryan and Mary Payne.
I don’t know where or when he died and very little about his life. I have a lot of information on his parents and 8 siblings. They were all born and died in NSW.
So far this is all I have of his life:
I think he died sometime after his sister Elizabeth's death in August 1954 because he was mentioned in her Newspaper Death Notice.
He was not mentioned in his sister Evelyn’s Death Notice in 1963. This may or may not mean he was dead by then. The only remaining sibling, their sister Annie, was mentioned in the notice.
In December 1944, he was mentioned in his brother John Cecil’s Death Notice (as John’s brother Jim).
In 1930, he was mentioned in his mother Mary’s Obituary in 1930, (as her son Jim, living in Sydney).
In 1924, he was mentioned as Best Man at his brother’s wedding in Sydney, NSW.
Some online family trees have him as the husband of Alice King or Margelina Drain or Esther Boneham. Maybe I’m missing something but I can’t see how the records show that he belongs to any of these families.
For me, there are too many James Patrick Ryans on the Electoral Rolls, Ryerson Index and online BDM Indexes to check up on, without knowing more details about his life. Any help at all would be much appreciated. Thanks.
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Hi Carmel
Only one chap in the Ryerson Index very close in age but with different parents.
Names of parents in the death index are not always correct.
Essie
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Some online family trees have him as the husband of Alice King or Margelina Drain or Esther Boneham.
The husband of Esther BONEHAM died in 1933 - his obituary and funeral...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/143156208
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14314736
The James RYAN who married Margelina DRAIN died in Queensland in 1941. His funeral announcement...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/186615378
His death registration gives parents' names as Thomas RYAN and Mary CANTWELL.
The Patrick James RYAN who married Alice May KING was born in Beechworth, Victoria and at marriage he named his parents as Peter RYAN and Margaret KEOUGH. He died in NSW in 1931.
I don't know what is wrong with some of these people with Ancestry family trees.
Debra :)
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Hi Essie
Thank you so much for replying. Yes you're right he is a good candidate. I looked at the man from St Peters a little while ago and couldn't find enough to prove or disprove. I took him to be the same man who lived at Unwin's Bridge Road, St Peters in the 1930s to 1950s who is on a number of Electoral Rolls. He also lived in the area in 1934. He lived with what looks like a wife called Mary Jane and several children. I'll start looking at him again. There might be more records available now. Any other ideas very welcome. Thanks.
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He married Mary Jane HACKETT in 1907. The only way to know if he is a contender would be to get a copy of the marriage cert.
5240/1907
RYAN, JAMES P
HACKETT, MARY J
NEWTOWN
Debra :)
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Hi Debra
Thank you very much for your efforts. Yes that's the James who is not the James I'm looking for. I'm glad you think so too. I've spent a lot of time looking at Esther Boneham and Alice King and Margelina Drain and have satisfied myself my James didn't marry any one of them. Thanks for putting up the information.
Carmel
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Hi, I don't know if this will help or not, but might save somebody else researching the info I have located
Mary Jane Hackett Birth details, NSW BDM
HACKETT MARY J 12415/1883 WILLIAM MARY A WEST MACQUARIE
death RYAN MARY JANE 4414/1962 WILLIAM MARY JANE NEWTOWN
This ladys husbands Death
RYAN JAMES PATRICK 11429/ 1957 JAMES PATRICK MARY JOSEPHINE NEWTOWN
I have found the death and funeral notices for both James and Mary, if you would like details send me a PM with your email.
They both died at St Peters, James on 12.6.1957 and Mary 16.1.1962 , and are buried at Rookwood Catholic cemetery
Cass
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Hi Cass
Thank you very much for the information and the offer. I’ll contact you privately. The funeral and death notices will be interesting. On the bright side, it looks like Mary Jane Hackett comes from the area of NSW where my James Patrick was born and grew up. On the other hand, I’m a bit worried about James from St Peters having Mary Josephine as his mother. Fingers crossed I can either prove or disprove the James from St Peter’s is the one I’m looking for.
Carmel
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Hi Debra
Thank you you for providing the information on Mary Jane Hackett’s marriage to James Patrick Ryan. I’m following it up.
Carmel
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i looked at the newspaper notices that Cass was kind enough to share. It looks like they confirm what we know about James from St Peters and his wife Mary Jane Hackett and their children, Joyce, Neville and Grace. That’s a good thing.
The continuing problem is the notices don’t prove or disprove that he is the James I’m looking for - the one who was born in Frogmore in 1881 with parents Patrick Ryan and Mary Payne.
I might have to get his Marriage Certificate or Death Certificate to be sure one way or the other.
Any other thoughts are much appreciated.
Carmel
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If you need to choose between his marriage certificate and his death certificate, may I suggest that his marriage certificate would include information that he provided. NSW BDMs can be quite detailed, but the family history sections of those official records are informant driven, so first hand information on a marriage certificate should be more reliable than details on a death certificate.
Do you have the electoral roll information from the NSW Colonial era? -
NSW 1878 Electoral Roll THE LACHLAN, Burrowa Police District
Patrick RYAN, residence Frogmore.
There were about 45 men with the surname RYAN, enrolled from that Police District.
Abraham PAYNE, freehold, Burrowa River
Henry PAYNE, freehold, Burrowa River
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=678243.0 The Geographical Names Board in the 1950s etc has Frogmore listed as:
Name : Frogmore
Parish : Alton
County : King
Land District : Boorowa
Pastures Protection District : Young
Local Government Authority : Boorowa Shire
JM (born and raised 'On the Lachlan')
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Sands Sydney Suburban 1910 NEWTOWN
At
257 King St, Newtown, J.P. RYAN, a butcher.
JM
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Maybe worth kindly requesting a lookup (often contains certificates and other valuable info) the next time Ros is at the Archives
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=703011.243
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/permalink/f/1ebnd1l/ADLIB_RNSW112384527
NRS-13660-37-13997-Series 4_468099 | James Patrick Ryan - Date of Death 12/06/1957, Granted on 04/11/1957
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/permalink/f/1ebnd1l/ADLIB_RNSW111141710
NRS-13660-42-17353-Series 4_541832 | Mary Jane Ryan - Date of Death 16/01/1962, Granted on 18/06/1962
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Happy to photograph the 2 probates for you Carmel :) I'm planning on going to the Archives early next week.
Ros
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Hi JM
Thanks for the good advice on the Marriage Certificate. No, I haven’t seen 1878 Electoral Roll you mentioned. It’s likely to be him. Patrick Ryan and Mary Payne lived in the area at that time. He was a Copper Smelter in the mines. I think it might be worth putting up all their children’s details. These children are the siblings of the James Patrick Ryan (born 1881) I’m looking for. I might be lucky and find a distant cousin who remembers stories about Uncle Jim Ryan.
James Patrick RYAN’S PARENTS:
Mary PAYNE born Spring Valley, NSW in 1849. Died Parramatta, NSW in 1930.
Patrick RYAN born Goulburn area, NSW in 1849. Died Petersham, NSW in 1918.
Married at Sts Peter and Paul’s Cathedral, Goulburn, NSW on 20 Nov 1871.
CHILDREN of PATRICK RYAN and MARY PAYNE:
Mary Alice born 1872, Currawang Copper Mines, NSW. Died 1880, Frogmore, NSW. Died as a child.
Elizabeth Ann born 1874, Currawang, NSW. Died 1954, Lewisham, NSW. Married Evan Morgan.
William born 1876, Frogmore, NSW. Died 1940, Balmain, NSW. Married Grace McGee.
John Ernest born 1878, Frogmore, NSW. Died 1881, Frogmore, NSW. Died as a child.
JAMES PATRICK born 1881, Frogmore, NSW. Died: Unknown (after 1953 likely).
Agnes born 1883, Spring Valley, NSW. Died 1920, Summer Hill, NSW. Married Edward John Whittington.
Annie born 1886, Frogmore, NSW. Died 1967, Ryde, NSW. Unmarried.
Evelyn Josephine born 1888, Frogmore, NSW. Died 1963, Rydalmere, NSW. Married Alfred Thomas Eyles.
John Cecil born 1890, Burraga, NSW. Died 1944, Sydney, NSW. Married Lucy Heylen.
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Hi Ros
That’s very kind of you to offer to photograph the Probate details. It will be a big help. Let me know about fees.
Thanks
Carmel
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There are no fees Carmel :) It's my pleasure to help.
Ros
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Hi Ros
Thanks again for taking the time.
Carmel
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Hi Carmel,
I've sent you a pm with links to the photographs of the probates. James Patrick RYAN's death certificate gives his mother as Mary Josephine PAYNE
Ros
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Hi Ros
Thanks so much for all your trouble. Yes, the Death Certificate is interesting - it does clearly say PAYNE. Lots of Ryans in that area at that time but not many Paynes. I’ve just ordered the Marriage Transcription for James Patrick Ryan and Mary Jane Hackett in 1907. Hopefully, that will clear up the inconsistencies with the names of James Patrick’s parents. Fingers crossed.
I’ll let you know,
Carmel
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The Marriage Transcription for James Patrick Ryan and Mary Jane Hackett just arrived. It looks like the right James. Finally. I hope so.
It says he was born at Frogmore, was living at Burraga, Bachelor, and age (25). Father: Patrick Ryan, (Occupation: Smelter) and Mother: Mary Payne. One of the witnesses was Agnes Ryan (one of James’ sisters is named Agnes). They were married on 24 April 1907 at St Mary’s Church, Erskineville, NSW (Roman Catholic Church).
I know some of his family were still living at Burraga in 1907 and some were on their way to Sydney during this period before WWI.
The Transcription also says the Bride was Mary Jane Hackett, Dressmaker, Spinster, age 23, born in Perth, NSW, and living at Erskineville. Father: William Hackett, Farmer, Deceased. Mother: Mary Ann Girdler. Witness: George Hackett.
There are details in the Death Certificate that don’t quite match James Patrick’s Birth and Marriage documents, particularly his parents’ names, but I’m hoping his daughter, the Informant, just didn’t know the correct information. Generally, the details are consistent across the documents.
I’ll have a good look at Trove and hopefully find a wedding notice for them either in the Sydney papers or Burraga area newspapers. I’ve been lucky in the past with other family members and found similar events noted in their hometown papers. I’ll keep looking for a bit more supporting information that this is my James Patrick but there may not be any.
Thanks again so much for all the help you people provided. I really appreciate it.
Carmel
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The Marriage Transcription for James Patrick Ryan and Mary Jane Hackett just arrived. It looks like the right James. Finally. I hope so.
It says he was born at Frogmore, was living at Burraga, Bachelor, and age (25). Father: Patrick Ryan, (Occupation: Smelter) and Mother: Mary Payne. One of the witnesses was Agnes Ryan (one of James’ sisters is named Agnes). They were married on 24 April 1907 at St Mary’s Church, Erskineville, NSW (Roman Catholic Church).
I know some of his family were still living at Burraga in 1907 and some were on their way to Sydney during this period before WWI.
The Transcription also says the Bride was Mary Jane Hackett, Dressmaker, Spinster, age 23, born in Perth, NSW, and living at Erskineville. Father: William Hackett, Farmer, Deceased. Mother: Mary Ann Girdler. Witness: George Hackett.
There are details in the Death Certificate that don’t quite match James Patrick’s Birth and Marriage documents, particularly his parents’ names, but I’m hoping his daughter, the Informant, just didn’t know the correct information. Generally, the details are consistent across the documents.
I’ll have a good look at Trove and hopefully find a wedding notice for them either in the Sydney papers or Burraga area newspapers. I’ve been lucky in the past with other family members and found similar events noted in their hometown papers. I’ll keep looking for a bit more supporting information that this is my James Patrick but there may not be any.
Thanks again so much for all the help you people provided. I really appreciate it.
Carmel
Re Perth NSW. That could be Penrith NSW (the state archives are in the Penrith Local Government Area, ) or Perthville, NSW ... on the western side of the Blue Mountains, out near Bathurst.
I think Penrith is the more likely. The St Marys council (absorbed into Penrith LGA mid 20th century) had an Inspector of Nuisances in the early 1900s .... he was Charles HACKETT and the bus route from St Marys Railway station to the archives at Kingswood travels along Charles Hackett Drive to the Great Western Highway... Frogmore also leads to that same highway. Back in 1900s it was the Western Road, Parramatta to Bathurst, across the Miountains. Crops and grazing and some industries eg tanning.
If you are interested in Hackett and local history let me know, as I was, for many years, part of a team of volunteers travelling often to the archives to help index many of the archives and we would each take turns to also put together some info about the archives locality and share over lunch etc.
JM
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:)
Burraga
NSW electiral rolls 1902. I will type up fully later today, but James Patrick RYAN, a blacksmith and George HACKETT, a labourer, both enrolled with Burraga as addresses.
My Oberon ancient rellies phoned me to keep me on my toes. ::)
JM
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Hi JM
Thank you for the information. Sorry, I didn’t put up the details of Mary Jane Hackett Ryan’s Death Certificate earlier. It said she was born in PERTHVILLE, NSW (which is on the southern outskirts of Bathurst) and died aged 77 years in 1962. Her father was William Hackett and her mother was Mary Girdler Hackett (although this certificate has her mother as Mary JANE Girdler, the other documents all have Mary Jane Hackett Ryan’s mother's name as Mary ANNE Girdler).
There's a Birth registered in the NSW BDM Index in 1883 which looks like her:
Mary J Hackett, Parents: William and Mary A Hackett. Birth registered in the District of West Macquarie, NSW.
I also have Mary Jane Hackett Ryan’s father’s Death Certificate. It says he was William Hackett. He was a miner who died in 1895, aged 43 years. His wife was Mary Anne Girdler. He was born at Windsor, NSW and died at Burraga, NSW. His parents were Thomas Hackett, Farmer, and Sarah Day.
I don't know yet if these Hacketts are related to the family you know. I've only started to look into them.
Any early Electoral Rolls or Census documents you have on James Patrick or any of his family would be very helpful. Thanks again for your help.
Carmel
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:)
Burraga
NSW electiral rolls 1902. I will type up fully later today, but James Patrick RYAN, a blacksmith and George HACKETT, a labourer, both enrolled with Burraga as addresses.
My Oberon ancient rellies phoned me to keep me on my toes. ::)
JM
I will have my hardcopy back this evening, so I can type it up then.
JM