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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: dave1948 on Saturday 22 May 21 12:47 BST (UK)

Title: Austrian/German. Ing. !!!
Post by: dave1948 on Saturday 22 May 21 12:47 BST (UK)
Hi Guys,

I have a funeral announcement that refers to  'Herr  Ing. Rudolf Gutmann'.  What does 'Ing.' mean before his name?  It is not a baptismed christian name, which was Rudolf Robert Gutmann.

Thanks all,  Dave
Title: Re: Austrian/German. Ing. !!!
Post by: Christine53 on Saturday 22 May 21 13:14 BST (UK)
I believe it's his professional title and is short for Ingenieur, which means engineer. It's a polite way of addressing someone , as in Herr Doktor or Herr Professor , followed by the surname.
Title: Re: Austrian/German. Ing. !!!
Post by: dave1948 on Saturday 22 May 21 15:45 BST (UK)
Hi Christine,

Thanks for that description. From other documents he seemed to be the repairer of anything that mechanically broke, dabbling in allsorts, so even if he wasnt 'qualified', he had the engineering brain.

Regards,  Dave.
Title: Re: Austrian/German. Ing. !!!
Post by: GrahamSimons on Saturday 22 May 21 19:57 BST (UK)
As I understand it, Engineer is a protected title in Germany these days and it can only be used by someone who is professionally qualified.
Title: Re: Austrian/German. Ing. !!!
Post by: dave1948 on Saturday 22 May 21 20:52 BST (UK)
Thank you Graham. 

Sounds like he probably was qualified. As Christine said above, ... but in the UK, a Doctor, Professor has 'Dr' or 'Prof.' before their name, an engineer just has letters of qualifications after their name. Interesting how different countries vary.

The answer to my question has been resolved, ... and being part of the extended family I may not pursue it further.

Thanks again,  Dave.
Title: Re: Austrian/German. Ing. !!!
Post by: Karen McDonald on Saturday 22 May 21 22:15 BST (UK)
Hi Dave,

I see you have Austrian/German in the title, but just to clarify this: Was he Austrian or German?

It would be rather unusual for a German to put the "Ing." in front of his name, and "Ing." alone would also be be quite unusual here in Germany. At least these days.

The Germans are very sensitive when it comes to titles.  :)
Just to provide you with boring information which you don't really need:  ;D

The professional title "Ingenieur" has been protected in the Federal Republic of Germany since the early 1970s by the engineering laws of the federal states and may only be used by graduates of degree courses whose main content is of an engineering or technical nature. In addition to the classical engineering courses (such as mechanical engineering), this can also include computer science, for example. Previously, persons without an engineering education but with many years of relevant professional experience were (and still are) allowed to use the professional title "Ingenieur".

I suspect the man in your clipping may have been too young to have been able to do that in Germany, though.

The degree of Diplom-Ingenieur (Dipl.-Ing.) is obtained by studying at a technical university (formerly Technische Hochschule) or university, usually for five years. A four-year course of study at a university of applied sciences leads to the degree of Diplom-Ingenieur (FH).

Graduates of the earlier engineering schools may, according to state law, use the formerly awarded state designation "Ingenieur" or "Ingenieur (grad.)" (graduated engineer) and, within the framework of post-graduation and under certain conditions, the state designation "Dipl.-Ing. (FH)". The state non-academic degree title acquired at Berufsakademien (vocational academies) is given the bracketed addition (BA): "Diplom-Ingenieur (BA)".

Studies at technical universities (formerly technical colleges) are traditionally always awarded the academic degree "Dipl.-Ing." - in more recent times with the bracket addition (TU), (TH) - or as "Dipl.-Ing. Univ." (awarded by the Technical University of Munich, among others) to distinguish it from the Dipl.-Ing. (FH).

After obtaining a doctorate in engineering sciences at a university, the academic degree of "Doktor der Ingenieurwissenschaften" (Doctor of Engineering Sciences) ("Doktor-Ingenieur", "Dr.-Ing.") is awarded.

As far as Austria goes, I found a website which stated that the Ing. title is still awarded there. The prerequisite: HTL Abitur (type of technical secondary school) + 3 years of practical experience.
Apparently it is not an academic title (similar to the title of technician).

I've been in Germany for so long that I've forgotten how a lot of things are in Blighty, but as far as I know, a person is either a Professor or a Doctor. Here in Germany, they list all their qualifications, so it is absolutely possible for someone to be e.g. Prof. Dr. Dr. Schmidt.
(Often the sort of person you want to avoid...  ;D)

As if anyone really wanted to know all this...  ;D
I'm off to bed. Night-night.

Best regards,
Karen
Title: Re: Austrian/German. Ing. !!!
Post by: GrahamSimons on Sunday 23 May 21 06:15 BST (UK)
Memories of tweaking our school database to allow the title Dr Dr when a German parent was very unhappy about being addressed as Dr.
Title: Re: Austrian/German. Ing. !!!
Post by: Karen McDonald on Sunday 23 May 21 21:14 BST (UK)
Memories of tweaking our school database to allow the title Dr Dr when a German parent was very unhappy about being addressed as Dr.

 ;D

I pity their kids...
Title: Re: Austrian/German. Ing. !!!
Post by: GrahamSimons on Sunday 23 May 21 21:41 BST (UK)
 Unless of course they accumulate more titles themselves.......
Title: Re: Austrian/German. Ing. !!!
Post by: dave1948 on Monday 24 May 21 16:33 BST (UK)
Karen,

Just to say he was Austrian, but i put both Austrian and German to confuse you, lol.  I may not NEED the explanation you gave, but it does help in understanding these little 'quirks' between one country and another.

Regards,  Dave.
Title: Re: Austrian/German. Ing. !!!
Post by: HughC on Tuesday 25 May 21 13:27 BST (UK)
I was surprised to see Karen explain Abitur as a "type of technical secondary school".
Surely in Austria, as in Germany, it's the school leaving certificate -- more or less equivalent to our A Level ?
But perhaps the explanation was intended for HTL (which I have to admit I'd never heard of).

The late Prof. Fritz Bauer of the TU München preferred to call it Munich Institute of Technology, I suppose by analogy with MIT.  And when it was just a technische Hochschule it was Munich Polytechnic.
More useless information!
Title: Re: Austrian/German. Ing. !!!
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Tuesday 25 May 21 15:16 BST (UK)
But perhaps the explanation was intended for HTL (which I have to admit I'd never heard of).

Yes, that's right.

There are two school leaving certificates:
"mittlere Reife",  equivalent (more or less) to O-levels and
"Abitur",  which is - as you say - "more or less equivalent to our A Level"

As in Britain, if you leave school with "Mittlere Reife"/O-Levels, you can't go to University, but you can go to technical colleges, and get your Abitur there. 

Bob
Title: Re: Austrian/German. Ing. !!!
Post by: HughC on Wednesday 26 May 21 05:54 BST (UK)
I now see that the Austrian equivalent of Abitur is called Matura.
In my mind I was equating Matura and mittlere Reife -- but etymology is not always a reliable guide.