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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Pinetree on Saturday 15 May 21 15:08 BST (UK)
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I would appreciate help with dating the attached photograph. I think it relates to my Gr Grandfather and may even feature him.
I know the following about his career as an engineer/machine fitter:
1872-1878 - apprentice fitter and erector- R & W Hawthorn, Newcastle, steam locomotive builders
1881 census - engine fitter - Nash Mill papermill, Hemel Hempstead
1891 census until 1920s - machine fitter - Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield.
I wondered if anything in the photograph would date it to one of these periods.
Any help much appreciated.
Pinetree
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A guess, but looks like a loco works to me.
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A guess, but looks like a loco works to me.
I will go along with that, it definitely not the small arms workshop, I can see what look like boiler tubes in the lower foreground, and possibly loco cylinders minus their end covers.
Wiki tells me that John Dickinson had their engineering works at Nash, presumably they had to make their own machines back then, but I still think railway even though it looks small, but then hawthorns mostly produced small engines.
Mike
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The style of clothing of a couple of the men is typical 1890's.
I also notice electric lights.
So late Victorian-Edwardian Era I would suggest.
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As far as I can tell Hawthorns also made marine engines, the cylinder that I thought may be loco minus its end cap looks very similar to the vertically mounted cylinders of a marine engine.
Mike
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Just looking at jim1s post and they do look like electric lights which throws a spanner in the works ;D
It surely cannot be any part of the small arms factory making rifles and swords.
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I’m no photo dating expert but would that photo be possible indoors with poor lighting in 1878.
Mike
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My first impression was early Edwardian, also the style of photo looks be a postcard. It would be good to see the back.
Carol
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My first thought was 1920. On the right is a Shaper, next to it looks like a grind wheel driven by
a flat belt. In the middle is a metal saw and on the left is a metal turning lathe. All reminiscent
of a small engineering workshop.
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Only 3 of the men are suitably dressed for working in a factory
the rest have white collars and perhaps visitors to the shop floor.
from the firm's offices.
1900 - 1915 just a guess based on
the attire and premises.
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Thank you all for your helpful responses.
Like japefalkes and mazi I started off thinking it might be Hawthorns because of the size of some of the items but wasn't sure that the clothing matched that era. I hadn't spotted or thought about the electric lights!
Following up on jim1's post I compared the photograph to some in a book I have on RSAF and I have to say the attire does look very similar to that worn by workers in photographs of them celebrating success in the Boer War so late 1890s early 1900s. I didn't think to do that before because I had decided that was the least likely option ::).
Treetotal it is a postcard, sorry I did not include the back I'll upload it now. The writing on the back is my Grandfather's but no help at all in identifying the photograph I'm afraid. This is a feature of many that I have, I get all excited because there is writing on the back and it is often totally unrelated to the subject, travel itineraries and telephone numbers were particular favourites ;D.
tomkin thank you for identifying some of the machines for me.
I am now starting to wonder if the young man back right, holding his lapels could be my Grandfather. He was still at school in 1901 and in 1911 he was an experimental engineer at an india rubber works.
Thank you all again for your input.
Pinetree
treedahlia your post just popped up, thank you also, I did think that about the clothing, no aprons etc - thought they had possibly dressed up for the photograph.
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The divided back postcard was introduced in 1902 in the UK, so not too long after that date.
Carol
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My first thought was 1920. On the right is a Shaper, next to it looks like a grind wheel driven by
a flat belt. In the middle is a metal saw and on the left is a metal turning lathe. All reminiscent
of a small engineering workshop.
My thoughts also. It seems too small to be either a locomotive works or a small arms factory.
Mike.
P.S. It just occurred to me that, although that type of postcard was introduced in the early 1900s as Carol says, they might have used an earlier negative for the picture :-\
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Typically, the Centre Gauge depicted on the Postcard, is used to measure the 55° cutting angle of lathe tools, after grinding to shape, or sharpening. The lathe tool application would be, for example, the machining of Whitworth Screw Threads. The Gauge, via the depicted two triangular cutouts, is also used to check the Thread Pitch of the finished machined screw.
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I did wonder what the relevance was of 55° until you mentioned the BSW screw.
I looked at the large cylinder lying on the floor & thought maybe a cylinder for
a steam press.
Re the postcard I don't think any later than 1910 as you don't see "for inland postage only" after
that date & certainly no later than 1918 as stamps went up to 1d.
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For me it seems all the big lumps of metal are too large for any of the machinery I can see, made in another part of the factory and here to be fitted together.
They all have holes in them to be bolted to something else and, given the thread gauge sketch and that one of them already has four studs in, is this a small specialist dept. of a much larger factory just making studs and bolts for assembly.
Somehow I don’t think the small serviette and tea tray are relevant, except maybe to think that this photo was not a treasured possession, just a handy bit of paper to write on :)
Mike
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These are standard m/c shop machines you would expect to see in any manufacturing Co.
The men could be fitter/machinists, making their own parts & fitting them.
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Here is a small snippet from Wikipedia regarding the Small Arms Factory at Enfield.
"In 1866 another major expansion took place, when the watermill gave way to steampower. The total number of steam engines grew to sixteen".
I believe this could be the onsite Enfield Machine Shop, that serviced and maintained the Factory Steam Engines. Judging by some of the machinery being driven by the belt drives, steam power appears to be main source of operation. Electricity has made inroads, with respect to Shop lighting, but not yet fully capable of powering some of the heavy machinery.
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Thanks again to everyone for the extra input.
I now believe the photograph to be later than I first thought and most likely RSAF. I understand that both my Gr Grandfather and Grandfather were involved in building and maintaining the machines used in manufacturing so that would fit with items in the photograph being parts of steam powered machinery used in the factory.
In later life my Grandfather was a design engineer for Metalbox.
As always a wonderful response from Rootschatters ;)
Pinetree
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Here is a small snippet from Wikipedia regarding the Small Arms Factory at Enfield.
"In 1866 another major expansion took place, when the watermill gave way to steampower. The total number of steam engines grew to sixteen".
I believe this could be the onsite Enfield Machine Shop, that serviced and maintained the Factory Steam Engines. Judging by some of the machinery being driven by the belt drives, steam power appears to be main source of operation. Electricity has made inroads, with respect to Shop lighting, but not yet fully capable of powering some of the heavy machinery.
That is certainly a possibility, I had not realised the small arms factory was quite as big.
How many swords and rifles does an army need. ;D ;D
Mike
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Only 3 of the men are suitably dressed for working in a factory
the rest have white collars and perhaps visitors to the shop floor.
from the firm's offices.
When I was an apprentice in an engineering workshop, I wore a white shirt and necktie.
Some of the foremen wore bowler hats. If we went near moving machinery we were told to remove
our ties in case we got strangled ;D ;D
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I also was an apprentice trained mechanical engineer, looking at that photo it would suggest late 19th century by the dress of the men and belt driven machines, though some machines could be early motor driven_?. That largish pipe machined flange of holes is quite big for a small machine shop as first impressions suggest and could be a machine shop shed in a large plant like a shipyard.
Date 1885 to 1920 (Possible later years with WW1 involved) by the dress of the men and no over garment like overhauls.
?