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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: aeroqueen on Saturday 08 May 21 17:47 BST (UK)
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Hi
has anyone got any pointers on how to search for millitary ancestors serving in India in the 1850's ?in particular i'm trying to find info on a Michael Lyons with a wife Mary a gunner in c?? company 3rd batallion Madras artillery as stated on a childs birth entry .
any help on where to look would be most appreciated kind regards Meg
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https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/British_Military_Records_Online
I would begin with the above Link, as it details a good variety of Military Search Options.
https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/collections/185/1851-worldwide-army-index
The above Link, for example, is for Serving Military Abroad during 1851.
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The Madras Artillery was an East India Company regiment, not British Army, though it was absorbed into the British Army circa 1861.
FindMyPast has discharge papers for a Michael Lyons from Co Limerick who transferred from the Madras Artillery to the Royal Artillery in 1861: https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO97%2F1333%2F256%2F001&parentid=GBM%2FWO97%2F1333%2F726978
Just a possibility!
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I've been looking at baptisms to Michael & Mary.
Margaret born 15 Feb 1861 bp 17 March at Secunderabad father Gunner 3rd battalion Madras Artillery
Joseph Charles born 11 Sept 1862 bp 2 Oct 1862 at Secunderabad father Gunner Royal Artlliery
so change of regiment looks to fit. :)
Other children
Catherine born 16 Jan 1853 bp 2 Feb 1853
Mary Ann Maria born 3 May 1865 bp 15 June 1865 Bangalore - she married James Cranston 24 Dec 1879 at Trimulgherry
Christopher John born 22 Nov 1866 bp 3 Jan 1867 Bangalore - buried 25 March 1867 Bellary
Christopher John born 28 Feb 1868 bp 4 June 1868 St Thomas Mount buried 2 July 1868
William Bernard born 18 April 1872 bp 12 May 1872 Thayet Myo Burma buried 3 Sept 1872 St Thomas Mount
George Henry born 27 Oct 1873 bp 21 Nov Thayet Myo
Margaret married William Stevens 5 Jan 1876 at Chudderghaut
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Joseph Charles Lyons was also in the Royal Artillery when he married Mary Jane Kain 26 Nov 1884 in Bangalore.
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something of interest from the military records of Joseph Charles is that his next of kin is noted as Mary Harris, mother. This was crossed out and name of wife added.
Marriage 9 Sept 1874 Trimulgherry for William Harris 29 bachelor gunner father Thomas Harris and
Mary Lyons 40 widow father Michael Shallow.
Burial in Thayet Myo 25 July 1873 Michael Lyons 36 years 2 months Gunner RA, died 24 July malignant cholera.
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Sandblown
hi thankyou i will follow up on your links
Shaunj
hi thankyou for taking the time to have a look for me it is appreciated following your link certainly makes facinating reading does look likely he could be my man.
Osprey
Hi thankyou for taking the time to have a look for me it is appreciated .the info you've found `im happy to say looks to be spot on i had the 1876 marriage for William and margaret .Now i just need to sort out who William Stevens is
kind regards to you all Meg
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Burial in Thayet Myo 25 July 1873 Michael Lyons 36 years 2 months Gunner RA, died 24 July malignant cholera.
Not the one I found then (138) - he was discharged in 1869 and received his pension in Canterbury in the 1870's.
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ShaunJ
hi no i think the discharge papers for 1869 is the right man .
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Sorry for not making that clear in my reply to Osprey.
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If this is your man (with the children listed by Osprey), he was in 20th Brigade, Royal Artillery: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60931/images/45450_1831101456_0153-00248
138 was in 17th Brigade.
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Shaunj
Hi thankyou its appreciated
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So it appears that your man died in service in 1873 and his British army records have not survived. There might be something for him in the HEIC registers at the British Library.
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Thankyou ShaunJ
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FIBIS might be able to advise you on what records may exist for a gunner in the Madras Artillery:
https://www.fibis.org/
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I am also researching a soldier serving in India. His name is Alexander Davidson. The first document is his marriage certificate, thanks to Findmypast, he married 4th June 1834 at Bangalore to an Emmelia Elizabeth Wallace. He is a Quarter Master Sergeant 7th Light Cavalry. He then becomes a Riding-Master for the Fifth Regiment Light Cavalry "Assaye" on 19th July 1836. Sadly Emmelia dies 26 May 1842 and Alexander is still Riding-Master of 5th Regt L.C. Emmelia is buried at Bellary. Alexander is then promoted to Lieutenant on 29th March 1857; Then the 5th Regiment LC becomes the 105th Foot and he becomes Paymaster on 12th August 1862; Honorary Captain 12th August 1867; Honorary Major 12th August 1872. He is placed on half pay 21st April 1880, Alexander's death is recorded in Middlesex on 28th June 1880. This has taken me many years to confirm. Now I am trying to find out where he actually came from. He was witness to a deposition: "Alexander Davidson, son of John Davidson, aged forty-nine years, a Presbyterian by religion, Lieutenant and Riding Master 5th L. C. by occupation, and residing at Bellary, 604. 60 No. 448. Deposition of Defendant’s 155th witness, February 9 and 10, 1858. George Solomon Frost Ross, son of George Ross, aged fifty-two years, a merchant by occupation, and residing at Bellary, 595. 61 No. 279." which gives me that he was born around c.1809 and his religion was Presbyterian, probably Scottish with the name Davidson. Is there a way of finding out his enlistment and pre 1834 years. I have been through Fold3/Ancestry/Findmypast/Familysearch/India Office and FIBIS but to no avail. I feel lucky to have what I have found but it would be great if I could get the last piece. I have verification of all of the above. Hope you can advise.
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@mweston
As the 7th and the 5th Bengal Light Cavalry were part of the East India Company, any information about his enlistment, if it still exists, will be in the EIC archives in the British Library's collection (https://www.bl.uk/collection-guides/india-office-records). You say you have already looked there, but are you just relying on the online records? Because comparatively little of the EIC records has been digitised, you may find a visit to the BL is needed.
As I'm sure you are aware the key to your problem is to find his enlistment details which should say where he was born. Obviously the British Army records won't be any help as the EIC was entirely separate at that time. Once he was in the Bengal Army it is much less likely for there to be any record of his birth place in his service record which you seem to have already. Unless you can find him with some certainty in a later British census, I don't see another solution.
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Thanks Andy, I feared that would be the case. As I live in Sydney Australia and with the cost of air fares, I can't see a trip to England in the not too distant future. It is a shame that there is not more of the EIC digitised. You have confirmed what the roads I took led me to, the British Library. Many thanks for the advice.
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I have a lot of sympathy with your problem. My great grandfather joined the British Army in Scotland in 1855 and served most of his career in India. On enlisting at the age of 18 (according to him) he said he was born in the parish of Greyfriars in Edinburgh. However that parish didn't exist around 1837 so he was more likely referring to the general area to the South of Edinburgh castle. What's more later censuses suggest he may have been under 18 when he enlisted, just to add more variables to the equation.
As you are no doubt aware civil registration in Scotland didn't start until 1854 so I, like you if your man was born in Scotland, have to rely on the Old Parish Registers (OPR) which are far from complete, and needless to say I haven't found his parents. So even though I have slightly more information to go on than you, this remains a brickwall for now.
Keep checking the FIBIS site as they are constantly adding new records and as far as I know they are the only site which is currently digitizing the BL EIC archives.
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Then the 5th Regiment LC becomes the 105th Foot and he becomes Paymaster on 12th August 1862;
Something wrong there. 105th Foot was previously the 2nd Madras Light Infantry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/105th_Regiment_of_Foot_(Madras_Light_Infantry)
AD was appointed paymaster on 29 March 1864 per the Gazette https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/7419/page/462
which gives me that he was born around c.1849
Typo - should read 1808?
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Then the 5th Regiment LC becomes the 105th Foot and he becomes Paymaster on 12th August 1862;
Something wrong there. 105th Foot was previously the 2nd Madras Light Infantry.
I suspect the actual sequence was that when the 5th Bengal Light Cavalry were disbanded in May 1857, due to questions about the loyalty of the Indian soldiers during the Mutiny, the newly appointed Lt Davidson transferred to Madras Light Infantry, since the European officers were on contract. And as he was now probably a quartermaster his riding skills were less important than his organisational/administrative skills, hence his later appointment as paymaster.
Going back to mweston's original posting, it would be really helpful to find his records at the time when he later went on half-pay as they might include more details about where he was living etc, which in turn might throw more light on his origins.
I also think the word 'gent' in the Gazette entry Shaun linked to is helpful. It it may indicate something about his origins, although I think it just a standard way of referring to someone didn't previously hold a commission in HM Forces. In other words this was the date on which he formally joined the British Army.
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Here is a little more information confirming what I have posted, one being the only information I found about his death, and that his son-in-law, which I knew was a Vet in the Army. I have also posted his Marriage Cert which gives his occupation back in 1834 and his probate. His probate gives his last known address at Hammersmith. (His two daughters, after their husbands died 1. Major Augustus Frederick Curtis and 2. Major Wardlaw Manderson, went to live in the Channel Isles together.) Seems my files are too big will send another post.
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Hi Andy here is the last information on Alexander, sorry not really good on putting things together so the information and headings are separate, sorry. Do you happen to know what the Regd Papers 49989/26 mean? Thankyou.
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Do you happen to know what the Regd Papers 49989/26 mean? Thankyou.
No, I'm sorry I don't.