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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Argyllshire => Topic started by: Glanteg on Sunday 02 May 21 23:10 BST (UK)

Title: help with reading a census entry
Post by: Glanteg on Sunday 02 May 21 23:10 BST (UK)
Hi are there any experts out there who can help to "translate" a placename on a census entry please?
The entry is from the 1851 census and relates to a Catherine McMillan. We have "lost" a Catherine Mcmillan born in the vicinity of Morvern?Strontium around 1835 and are wondering whether the Catherine Mcmillan on this 1851 census entry working as a servant at Largs in Ayrshire, might be her. We can read Argyllshire but not the town of birth. The entry we are looking at is the one above Perthshire. Many thanks
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: GR2 on Monday 03 May 21 00:29 BST (UK)
The parish is Skipness. It is on the east side of the Kintyre peninsula.
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: Forfarian on Monday 03 May 21 08:13 BST (UK)
I agree with Skipness.

It's not exactly close to either Strontian or Morvern.
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: Glanteg on Monday 03 May 21 10:32 BST (UK)
Thank you!!! Looks like I will have to keep trawling for my missing Catherine!!!
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 03 May 21 19:09 BST (UK)
You mention a birth place for Catherine around Strontian which is the main village in Sunart.

So, how about this 1851 census entry for Catherine www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a1556d5f4040b9d6e6a5304/cathrine-mcmillan-1851-renfrewshire-paisley-1834-?locale=en

Monica
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: Forfarian on Monday 03 May 21 19:21 BST (UK)
Sunart including Strontian is in the parish of Ardnamurchan. Morve(r)n is a neighbouring parish.

There's a baptism of Catherine McMillan, daughter of Donald McMillan and Sussy Rankin, in Ardnamurchan on 16 August 1833.
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: Glanteg on Tuesday 04 May 21 14:06 BST (UK)
Replying to Forarian -  thanks for this - not sure how I have managed to miss it. Trying to trace Catherine McMillan G G grandmother - turns up in Liverpool in 1868 with a young baby - claims to be widow. Baby grows up having close connections with "cousins" whose grandparents I have successfully backtraced to Cardross in 1851 (their births locations being giving a Morvern) and also to same street in 1841 where they are living as children with an apparently unrelated young couple. The "grandparents" were Hugh and Ann McMillan born Movern 1826 and 1823. I know from a death certificate that Ann's father was Donald. Hugh died between 1851 - 1855 and no known death record. In 1841, there were other siblings John (b 1831) Janet (b 1832) Catherine (b.1833) and Angus (b.1836) I am therefore working on the assumption (until I prove otherwise!) that the Catherine born 1833, sibling to Hugh and Ann is my missing Catherine. Trying now to identify Catherine on the interim census for 1851 and 1861. Many thanks for your help
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 04 May 21 14:24 BST (UK)
Did you dismiss the possible 1851 census entry I posted?

Monica
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: Glanteg on Tuesday 04 May 21 16:39 BST (UK)
Sorry Monica - def not dismissing your find!!  Not too sure how to respond on roots chat to individual messages - seems only one reply button but I have received messages from a number of people. Just put the background to my search to explain where I am at. The baptism entered by Forfarian looks promising and your 1851 find also promising. Paisley being not that far from Cardross. I had picked up the Catherine and Catharine entries in the 1851 but missed this Cathrine entry. My Catherine was in service in Liverpool in 1871 and her young son was boarded out. If this is the correct entry in Paisley then I need to try and find her in 1861 - it may be that she had already moved to Liverpool rather than "ran away" when she found herself pregnant. Always assumed she had arrived in Liverpool with a young baby but this may be wrong. Baby doens t seem to have been registered in Scotland or England although was baptised in Liverpool when a year old. Thanks again for your help - this search has been ongoing for years!!!
We had hoped that DNA might help but as yet not luck down this avenue
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 04 May 21 18:02 BST (UK)
You mentioned she showed as widowed in 1871? Was she down as McMillan or another surname then?

What was the baby's name and where was he born?

Sorry...questions always seem to lead to more questions!

Monica
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: Glanteg on Tuesday 04 May 21 18:45 BST (UK)
Hi Monica - she claimed to be a widow and her son on his marriage certificate stated his father (whom he never knew) was called George, an engineer. This was always assumed to be true. However with the benefit of ancestry etc - we now know more about her and it appears that on the 1871 and 1881 census in Liverpool she is unmarried and working in service. Her son, also called George, was boarded out to presumably enable her to work. By 1881, he was working and mother and son were living together( recorded as widow on 1881) - no place of birth ever provided for her other than Scotland. Young George however kept in contact presumably via his mother, with two "cousins" neither of which were Mc Millans however having traced them back - it is their grandparents who were brother and sister mc millans. Bit of a giant leap but I am working on the premiss that his mother Catherine was a younger sibling of Hugh and Ann McMillan. And as i say I have the 1841 where Hugh and Ann are recorded with a younger siblings, John Janet Catherine and Angus. Have been looking for baptism
 records to tie all together but have not been successful. Re the baby George, always recorded as born Liverpool - have baptism record (no father mentioned) but no official birth record - baptism recorded birth as 2nd October 1868.
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 04 May 21 20:49 BST (UK)
If only Catherine was as well documented as her son George www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X921-1B7  The only info I couldn't see for him was a possible 1871 census entry?

Given the name used at his baptism, George Taylor McMillan, I would suggest you consider that his father's name could have been George Taylor. Quite common for this naming of illegitimate children. Also common for them to switch between surnames. George though was consistent with his use of McMillan wasn't he.

Following from 1851, there is a further possible entry for Catherine in 1861:

A/try have it indexed as:

Catrin Mcmillan 25 b. Strontian. She is showing as working as a kitchen maid at Corson's, Morven. David Corson, Estate Manager Achronich, is head of family there.

Guess one of the cousins you mention for George is the one showing with the family in 1911? www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWTJ-1KT - James McArthur McLaren born c.1870 in Dumbarton, with the McA for middle name abbreviation.

Who do you have as his parents?

Monica
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 04 May 21 20:58 BST (UK)
If George's father was a George Taylor, you might want to have a look at this marriage:

George Gordon Taylor, engine fitter, married a Hannah Rebecca Fisher on 17 April 1870 in Liverpool. He lived at Roscoe Street at the time of the marriage and his father was Richard Taylor, a tailor by trade.

Will be hard to confirm either way though  :-\

Monica

Added: www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNSQ-TC9  Also, www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5GL-GM1
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: Glanteg on Tuesday 04 May 21 21:49 BST (UK)
Funny that George Taylor should live in Roscoe Street cos Roscoe is my surname!! Re George Taylor as father's name - I too have been thinking along those lines although I have recently come up with an alternative theory which unfortunately I cannot prove. I have searched for George McMillan in 1871 census and cannot find him. Based on his baptism as living in Trowbridge Street, Everton, I trawled through the whole street in case there were transcription errors.Didnt find a Mcmillan but I came across an entry for a George Taylor aged 2 born Liverpool son of George Taylor and Rebecca Taylor. Now I have researched George and Rebecca Taylor (nee Barber) and as far as can see they were a childless couple having been married since 1848 and no children recorded on any of the preceding census.Nor is there a record of a George Taylor being born in  1868/69 with a mother's maiden name of Barber My theory is that Catherine and her baby had boarded with the Taylors since his birth and in acknowledgment/thanks she gave her son the middle name of Taylor when he was baptised at 1 year old. In 1871 she herself is in service on the Wirral. In 1881 young George is still in Trowbridge Street but lodging with another family.
Re James McArthur Mclaren - his parents were Peter Weir Mclaren and Mary Mcmillan. Mary was the daughter of Hugh Mcmilland and Catherine McArthur. If my belief is correct this would mean that James was in fact George's first cousin once remove.  We have a book gifted to George McMillan by his cousin Aggie and she turns out to be the daughter of Ann(sometimes Agnes) Stewart nee Mcmillan. Hugh and Ann were siblings and I believe Catherine was a younger sibling so this would make Aggie and George full cousins.
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 04 May 21 22:03 BST (UK)
....although I have recently come up with an alternative theory which unfortunately I cannot prove. I have searched for George McMillan in 1871 census and cannot find him. Based on his baptism as living in Trowbridge Street, Everton, I trawled through the whole street in case there were transcription errors.Didnt find a Mcmillan but I came across an entry for a George Taylor aged 2 born Liverpool son of George Taylor and Rebecca Taylor.

Good theory  ;) Would also explain where little George was in 1871. I couldn't find him at all!

Monica
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: Glanteg on Tuesday 04 May 21 22:34 BST (UK)
As I say though, may be a good theory but not going to be able to prove it. George Mcmillan is my husbands g grandfather. We therefore did the DNA of my mother in law as George was her grandfather, in the hope that we might come across a descendant of a Mcmillan - no such luck as yet. Think my next task will be to try and trace the other siblings from the 1841 census - John, Angus and Janet. Have Angus and Janet in 1851 ( janet living with Ann Stewart and Angus living with Hugh McMillan) but have not got them in subsequent census nor John at all. Had hoped to find a death record for one of them after 1855 which might give parentage details. Hugh died between 1851 and 1855 and when Ann died her husband knew the father's name but not her mothers's!!  Thank you for all your help - if you have any Welsh connections you need any assistance with just let me know!!
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: MonicaL on Wednesday 05 May 21 16:08 BST (UK)
Thank you  ;)

Re Angus when he was with big brother Hugh in 1851, he showed as a cotton dyer didn't he. I thought this might be him in 1861:

Angus McMillan, 23, boarder, cotton dyer b. Ardnamurchan, Argyllshire

He shows at 136 Old Dalmarnock Rd in the Bridgeton area of Glasgow boarding with a McDougal family.

I can't see him in Scotland after this easily, nor England. Also nothing obvious in deaths. Wondering if he left the UK after this census?

Monica
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: MonicaL on Wednesday 05 May 21 18:06 BST (UK)
A new line to work on.... ::)

I have been looking at the names of Ann McMillan's children with Allan Stewart. Given his parents names look to have been John and Ann, the next stand out names are Dugald and Mary. So, wondered if Allan and Ann used Scottish naming pattern (lots of links on this such as www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm - not always followed, or to the order, but amazing always how this did influence the naming of children).

Working on the names Dugald McMillan and Mary brought up this potential marriage, which is very close to the areas we have for the family in Argyll:

www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTK4-68F - Dougald MacMillan and Mary MacPherson marriage or banns in 1819 in Acharacle.

The first hard facts you have for the family is from 1841 and the children all showing to be living with an Archibald and Mary McLaughlin. Everyone showing as born outside of the county:

Archibald Mclauglin 30 cotton dyer
Mary Mclauglin 35
Ann McMillan 15
Hugh McMillan 15
John McMillan 10
Janet McMillan 9
Catharine McMillan 8
Angus McMillan    5
Angus Mcgilvery 15

Address: Renton Back St, Cardross Dunbartonshire

Ages as you know were rounded down to the nearest 5 years this census. Children under 15 were supposed to show at their actual age.

You wondered who this couple was earlier on. Could she be their mother? If Dugald McMillan died and mother Mary McPherson (theory!) remarried. There is a corresponding marriage to fit this possibility:
   
www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTRN-ZJG - Archibald Mclachlan and Mary McPherson marriage or banns in Cardross in 1838.

This would explain this household in 1841.  Need further corroboration though...

Monica
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: MonicaL on Wednesday 05 May 21 18:25 BST (UK)
In the parish registers on SP, I can only see one entry for a child to them and this would be potentially for Ann:

Anne MacMillan, parents Dugald MacMillan and Mary MacPherson
03/07/1820
05/20 5
Ardnamurchan and Strontian or Sunart

Monica
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: MonicaL on Wednesday 05 May 21 18:34 BST (UK)
Could this be Archibald McLaughlin in 1851 www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a151013f4040b9d6e1b2762/archibald-mclaughlin-1851-lanarkshire-gorbals-1811-?locale=en

He showed as married and same occupation as 1841. But is he still married to Mary or has she died? Can't easily see anything for her so far in 1851...

Monica
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: Glanteg on Wednesday 05 May 21 20:52 BST (UK)
Monica that is amazing!! appreciate it needs corroboration but its a very likely line to follow up. Knowing that Hugh was actually 18 I was thinking that Mary was too young to be his mother but of course even at 17 years old she would have been old enough and indeed could have been almost 20. I looked for them in 1851 and didnt find them as a couple although I may have identified Archibald in the 1861.
Archibald Mclachlin married cotton dyer age 50 born Argyll Ardnarmurchan living in Glasgow as a lodger. It says married rather than widowed so perhaps a search for Mary is my next challenge. Guess if I could find her death any previous names might be listed. Your help is very much appreciated - I have been getting a bit down hearted about ever making any headway but now there are very definate lines to follow.
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: Glanteg on Wednesday 05 May 21 22:36 BST (UK)
Hi Monica - I also saw the birth record for Ann - Ann Stewart nee Mcmillan consistantly records her birth as 1823 so perhaps it was a child that didnt survive? ( that is of course assuming Dougald and Mary McPherson are the right parents!!)

Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: MonicaL on Thursday 06 May 21 19:23 BST (UK)
...I was thinking that Mary was too young to be his mother...

Remember that in 1841 ages were supposed to be rounded down, so if Mary's age was correct in the first place, she could have been aged 35-39 in 1841. We also have that possible first marriage in Acharacle in 1819.

Monica
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: MonicaL on Thursday 06 May 21 19:26 BST (UK)

Archibald Mclachlin married cotton dyer age 50 born Argyll Ardnarmurchan living in Glasgow as a lodger. It says married rather than widowed so perhaps a search for Mary is my next challenge. Guess if I could find her death any previous names might be listed. Your help is very much appreciated - I have been getting a bit down hearted about ever making any headway but now there are very definate lines to follow.

Given that we have a likely entry for him also lodging in Glasgow in 1851 www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a151013f4040b9d6e1b2762/archibald-mclaughlin-1851-lanarkshire-gorbals-1811-?locale=en  you get the feeling that the marriage may not not have worked out maybe.

Monica
Title: Re: help with reading a census entry
Post by: Glanteg on Friday 07 May 21 13:40 BST (UK)
agree but where is Mary McPherson/McMillan/McLauglin in 1851 and 1861 (unless he was actually a widow but didnt know?). On Ann Stewart's death certificate, her husband Alan was able to enter her father's name as Dugald but didnt know her mother's name. Bit surprising as we believe her father to have died back in the 1830's and yet her mother is believed to have still been around in the 1850/60s.  I had been hoping to find death records for John, Janet or Angus (siblings on the 1841 census) to try and corroborate our thoughts but they seem to have completely disappeared.