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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: F.H. on Sunday 18 April 21 08:33 BST (UK)
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Looking for ANY info please, of a John George White b1894 in the Brentford/Acton area.
His occupation was "Guard on Central London Railway"
His wife was Dorothy May White nee Lawrence, birthplace and date unknown.
He had been in the Coldstream Guards during WW1
The family lived in Madras Road, Ilford during WW2
Many children, here are the ones I've heard of.
John Kenneth
Ronald Paul
Stella C
Doreen Clara
George C
Derek C
Alma
Gordon
Beatrice
Peggy
Jack.
I'm led to believe that when they first married they lived in the Acton area.
Thank you.
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Duplicate post on Essex board
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=847657.
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Sorry, I don't understand.
Am I not allowed to make the same request on two sites when the person lived in both area's ???
Can you explain please?
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Yes, it just alerts those who are searching there is a second posting and replies can be on either posting.
Starting with the marriage certificate who does John say is his father?
Who does Dorothy May Lawrence say is her father?
This couple married 1914
There are a lot of White married to Lawrence combinations on the GRO index. Because of this we need the fathers names from the certificate to differentiate between families.
So far
Beatrice M 1923 at Brentford (on 1939 register)
John Kenneth 1927 at Romford
Ronald Paul 1928 at Romford
Stella C 1930 at Romford
Doreen C 1931 at Romford
George C 1934 at Romford
Gordon R 1932 at Billericay
George C 1934 at Romford
Derek G 1937 at Romford
There is a William born 1920 on the 1939 register so possibly William Edward 1920 at Brentford
I cannot find Alma, Peggy or Jack
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There is a Margaret Louisa 1917 at Brentford could she be Peggy? need to see if she belongs to another White/Lawrence family.
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Hi amondg.
Thank you, I thought I was doing something wrong...
So far, the only certificate that I have, is the birth cert for my aunt Doreen.
This gave me her mother and father's name and occupation which I stated.
I'm just trying to go back further and was hoping for more definitive info to proceed.
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Posting replies more than one place causes confusion and extra work for those trying to help. There are now replies on this thread and other members could be looking at the ESSEX thread and searching for the same details not knowing the information is already here. That's why, if you do post the same request in more than one place, it's suggested posting a link to other thread to avoid needless duplication.
From the dates of children it might be that some of them are still alive? if so, we aren't allowed to post their details. Also, we are not allowed to do look ups or post details of 1939 register for others.
If might be best to start with looking up the 1939 Register (Ancestry or Find My Past) to get exact dates of birth. Next, since you are dealing with very common surnames, probably get the 1914 marriage certificate to confirm name and occupation of groom's father.
Have you found John in 1911 census yet? (we are also not allowed to do lookups for it but FamilySearch has some details from it). John might be listed with his parents, and possibly siblings, and places of birth will help trace back through other records.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/
You should also, if possible, check with other relatives to see what information they might know.
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Aghadowey.
I'm sorry if I've caused confusion, or extra work to anyone, not my intention at all.
Although I've been doing my family tree for several years as a hobby, I am not very familiar with the various sites... but excitement overtakes me at times lol...
As money is tight, I try to do my research as best I can, so don't purchase certificates unless I'm perfectly sure of the details.
Very few of the relatives are still with us, but I am in contact with Doreen's children (my cousins) and it is them I'm trying to help.
Thank you for the info.
F H
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Find my Past have service records for John George White. Quite a lot of pages, but the synopsis being: John George White (later shown as born 30/5/1894) was born 1893, presumably 30/5/1893) and enlisted in Coldstream Guards 8/9/1914 at Fulham regimental no. 12417. Definitely your man because lists his wife as Dorothy May Winifred Lawrence, married 7/3/1914 and then shows 2 children: John Richard White born 16/7/1914 Margaret Louisa White born 2/1/1917. When enlisted was a Painter, born Hammersmith and address 53 Stirling Road, South Acton. He was transferred to Labour Corps. 3/10/1915, regimental no. 641388. Discharged 21/8/1918. Also details his wounds on various occasions.
Possibly the John George White birth reg'd Sept.qtr.1893 Fulham, mmn Coombs. If so, his parents were Edmund Joseph White and Clara Elizabeth Coombs although I can find no marriage between them. However, no use relying on conjecture - one needs to have proof and I believe you definitely need to get the 1914 marriage certificate to confirm the couples respective fathers' names and occupations. Alas, no full details of the marriage available online (may well have been in a register office). If I've identified the right parents none of their children appear to have been baptised, possibly because they had never married.
Annette
The dau. Elma I. White birth Mar.1926 Hammersmith.
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Annette7.
Wonderful, thank you very much for that info.
F H
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Have you forgotten you asked about this family before (and details posted for you)?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=802509.0 (4 pages)
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aghadowey.
What do you mean by that ???
No, I had not forgotten, thank you.
New and more detailed information from these families has just recently been received.
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Some of the details already posted on the old thread would have cut down on searches done for you today. You can always add to an existing thread (such as the previous ESSEX one) or post a link to a new one (such as the LONDON) one you started today.
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aghadowey.
It has obviously upset you that I do not know better.
Sadly for me, I have to "go round the houses" as a non-experienced roots chatter.
If I was as experienced as you seem to be, I would have done that.
A lot of the info on the old thread has proved to be wrong.
My apologies to one and all on here, if I have caused you grief.
F H
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No grief caused F H ;)
Subject to confirmation from the marriage reg in 1914, the family group that Annette has identified looks promising for John George.
Census entries for:
1901 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X96N-MZ7
1911 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW4S-6J7
Monica
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Clara Elizabeth Combs/Coomb died in 1930:
Clara Elizabeth White, age 70. Died in 1933 (showing in Brentford, 3rd Qrt vol. 3a/pg. 113) and buried on 11 August at St Mary, Acton, Ealing.
Looks like she may have been born in Brighton. Likely birth entry for her on 4th Qrt 1862. With her family in 1881 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q274-31P3
Edmund Joseph White needs more work. I think he was still alive in 1936. There is an electoral roll entry that year in Acton:
White, Edmund Joseph and
White, Harry William....at Orchard Cottage, Colville Road, Acton...this is the same address that the White family were living at in the 1911 census.
So far, Edmund Joseph born c. 1856 in Islington. Closest death is for an Edmund J White, 78, 3rd Qrt Edmonton, vol. 3a/pg. 541.
Father seems to show as Edward/Edmond or Edmund.
Monica
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Hi MonicaL
Great, thank you for the info.
I have ordered the marriage cert for John and Dorothy, so that should help to confirm a few details for me to move along with this White family.
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Good plan!
Hopefully from there, you can work back with confidence. Let us know what comes back :)
Are you descended from one of the children or extended family?
Monica
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MonicaL
Yes, John George White's daughter Doreen, is my aunt. She married my mum's brother.
I've been in touch with Doreen's children and am trying to help them regarding info about their grandparents (John and Dorothy).
I'll will let you know when I get the marriage cert, thank you.
F H
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Hi,
I hope you don't mind but I am posting a link to another thread about this family that will show people searching some other info that has been found,
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=847645.0
As this thread seems to have more recent info. I will post anything more I find to this thread rather than the one I used yesterday :)
I hope this is ok.
Regards,
Daisy
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Daisypetal- rosie99 posted a link to that topic yesterday (see reply #1)
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Hi,
Thanks Aghadowey :)
I had seen the link provided by Rosie to the Essex board but the link I posted was a to the Surrey board where I had posted John's entry in the enlistment register for the Coldstream Guards.
Regards,
Daisy
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A lot of the info on the old thread has proved to be wrong.
It was you who provided the wrong info on the old thread, you were corrected as soon as it became evident.
But if I did give any wrong information, then please tell us what it was.
I have ordered the marriage cert for John and Dorothy, so that should help to confirm a few details for me to move along with this White family.
You were told about the 1914 marriage in Brentford RD over two years ago, by me.
You have had plenty of time to order it!
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jonw65
Hi.
A lot has happened in the last two years...
Yes, some of the info that I provided at that time, turned out to be wrong. So yes, it was my fault.
This was not done intentionally. I am now trying to provide more definite info.
I have learned a lesson.
F H
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Hi
Well we should probably have dug a bit deeper previously. And you have certainly received some excellent new info from the contributors this time round.
Good luck with the certificate.
John
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Hi John.
Yes, the certificate ordered a few days ago, should be in the post as we speak.
I'll keep you all informed.
Also, the info supplied by members has been great and I thank them all.
Fred
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Hello All. :)
Just received the marriage certificate of John George WHITE and Dorothy May Winifred LAWRENCE.
7th March 1914 at the Register Office Brentford.
John's father is Charles Edward WHITE (packing case maker).
Dorothy's father is William Henry Charles LAWRENCE (builders labourer).
Their address given, is 14 Bolls or Bolts Lane, Acton Green.
Witnesses are Laura LAWRENCE and Henry (looks like) GUDDE
F H
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The address is Bollo Lane, Acton.
Annette
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Annette7
Hi.
Looking at the address now, it certainly is Bollo Lane.
Thank you.
:)
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Hi Annette.
The info you gave me last week is so very strong but, as I said earlier today the father's name on the marriage certificate is (Charles Edward White), that's different from your name of (Edmund Joseph White).
Can you explain how I could prove one or the other please ?
Thank you,
Fred
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There are no easy answers here I'm afraid. Always the dilemma when you are dealing with a surname like White, people not marrying, changing their christian name/s.
Since what I found seemed to be the only option we could see, if it was me, I'd be ordering the birth certificate of John George White Sept.1893 Fulham to see if he had a birthday of 30th May.
For instance, even if it did turn out to be the right John George - with a father not Charles Edward but Edmund/Edmond Joseph, things aren't going to get any easier for you. The latter states he was bc.1856 Islington or Hammersmith but no-one to fit these details either - a number of trees on ancestry state he's the son of a Charles White and Sarah Walkley BUT their son was born and baptised as Edmund James, born 27/1/1858 St Martin in the Fields, bp.14/2/1858, so not sure Edm Joseph is even this man! See what I mean?
Annette
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Annette.
Thank you.
Wow yes, I do see what you mean. My mind is buzzing now ???, trying to take it all in.
I think that over the next few days, I'll go back over the previous posts and take in what I can and as you say, order the birth cert for John George White. (I'll let you know the outcome)
On the flip side, I spoke to a cousin of mine this week and there is some belief that "Dorothy May Winifred Lawrence" (John George White's wife) has some Irish connection. I don't think that this helps on the White side, but maybe just that little "bit", that does help somehow.
I'm very grateful to you, and other "Roots Chatters" for your help.
Fred.
:)
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Gosh, they continue to be a hard bunch to find ;)
On Dorothy, you have mentioned her father showed on her marriage entry as William Henry Charles Lawrence, a builder's labourer.
I saw this probate entry for a younger William www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPLZ-2W2L and on Find a Grave www.findagrave.com/memorial/200131062/william-henry_charles-lawrence
His death index entry shows him aged c.29
William H C Lawrence, 29, 2nd Qrt Brentford (3a/231).
Maybe nothing but set of names and location made him stand out.
Added: Maybe his details here www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NVQ3-RQS Can't easily see them yet in 1901.
Monica
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Hi Monica.
Thank you for looking.
Yes, a very hard bunch to find... ???
If William Henry Charles Lawrence is the one you mention, his age at the marriage of his daughter in 1914..... would be about 14 years old, if my maths are correct. :o
Fred
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A brother or a cousin perhaps.
The birth year of the father is still speculation until you have a definite man.
Reading the will can provide relatives names and possibly lead to the answer you are looking for.
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Reading the will can provide relatives names and possibly lead to the answer you are looking for.
It's an administration. Granted to Mary Lawrence, widow
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=lawrence&yearOfDeath=1926&page=4#calendar
Possible marriage, 25 Dec 1922, St George, Southall
William Henry Charles Lawrence, 26, Bachelor, Foreman, residence 60 Oswald Road, Southall, father William Henry Charles Lawrence, Decorator
+
Ivy Amelia Offord, 24, Spinster, residence 14 Oswald Road, Southall, father Isaac Offord (deceased), Independent?
witnesses Archerbald Arthur Laurence (seems to say that?) and Gordon John Offord
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Hi.
Yes, I do understand the speculation.
As for reading the will, is that something that I can get free access to?
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Builder's labourer and decorator would be a good fit.
Needs more work though...early days for this.
Monica
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As for reading the will, is that something that I can get free access to?
There is no will. Address from the probate calendar is 20 Roslin Terrace.
In 1920, at 14 Roslin Road, Acton, are
Louisa Lawrence
William Henry Lawrence, Junr.
William Henry Lawrence, Senr.
and Esther Alice Lansdown
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William Henry Lawrence and Louisa Lawrence still at 14 Roslin Road on the 1939 electoral register. Sidney James Lansdown and Winifred Alice Lansdown also there.
I think there is a muck up in the free index to the 1939 Register
For 14 Roslin Road, Acton, it has
William H Lansdown, born 1867
with Louisa S Landsown (born 1865)
I think they will both be Lawrence. See original.
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Added: Getting a red flash with your post Jon but will post this as is...
If we are following the same William Snr and family:
1894 Marriage for William Lawrence and Clara Jane Wilkins in Wandsworth 2nd Qrt
1894 Birth of a Dorothy Louisa Lawrence in Brixton, mother's mn Wilkins - 1st Qrt
1901 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9N8-SRL - parents details match with 1911 but where are the other children :-\
1911 www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:XWWP-GJM
1919 Marriage of a William H Lawrence to a Mary Johnson in Brentford 1st Qrt. Could this be a second marriage for William H C. Snr. Could this be the Mary, Widow, mentioned in Probate?
Death of Clara Lawrence? There is one in Brentford in 1915, but indexed as age 94 :-\
However, Jon, from your listing for 1920 there shows a Louisa and I am wondering if this is Dorothy Louisa from 1894? Which means this family is wrong :-\
Monica
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Dorothy Louisa in 1911? www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWW2-YB6 She is showing as born in Brighton instead of Brixton/lambeth but if the same that we had in 1901, her mother Clara Jane was born in Brighton.
Not seeing the connection now to Dororthy May :-\
Monica
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It's a tough one, Monica. Going round in circles myself.
There is a William Henry Charles Lawrence marriage to a Sarah Ann Binder in Edmonton in 1895.
And a son WHC Lawrence born there towards the end of 1896. Dad was only 20 on marriage, and a gas fitter.
John
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Have we mentioned Dorothy's death?
Possible
March 1977 Southend on Sea 9 / 2896
White, Dorothy May
d-o-b 30 March 1894
A birth
LAWRENCE, DOROTHY MAY
Mother's Maiden Surname: BUTCHER
GRO Reference: 1894 J Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 282
Baptism at Beddington (St Mary), 17 June 1894
Dorothy May
parents William + Louisa Lawrence
abode Hackbridge
father Labourer
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LAWRENCE, WILLIAM HENRY
Mother's Maiden Surname: BUTCHER
GRO Reference: 1896 S Quarter in KINGSTON-ON-THAMES Volume 02A Page 320 :-\
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Hi all.
With my head spinning :) at the amount of info you have kindly given, I've ordered the birth certificate of John George WHITE.
Hopefully, this will clear up a few details.
Thank you.
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I think this is them in Acton in the free index to 1911.
Father William is not at home, which wouldn't have helped in the search!
See original for the address!!
Louisa Lawrence 47
May Lawrence 17, born Hackbridge, Surrey
Willie Lawrence 14
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW4S-6KD
Hopefully can be confirmed, well done to Monica for her great spot, which got us there.
I saw this probate entry for a younger William www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPLZ-2W2L and on Find a Grave www.findagrave.com/memorial/200131062/william-henry_charles-lawrence
His death index entry shows him aged c.29
William H C Lawrence, 29, 2nd Qrt Brentford (3a/231)
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Could this be them in South Wimbledon in 1901? :-\
Piece 660 folio 24 page 40
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9X8-PLG
D M Lawrance 7
W C Lawrance 4
Both born Wimbledon
Parents
W H Lawrance 34 Bailiff, born Ships Mallet, Cornwall
M L Lawrance 32 Laundress, born Hants
Two other, older children born Hampshire.
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May 1945 electoral register, Acton South
14 Roslin Road
Louisa S Lawrence
William H Lawrence
Plus the two Lansdowns
October 1945 register
Louisa S Lawrence still at 14 Roslin Road.
But no William H Lawrence listed there.
Did William die around that time? The best matching death reg may be
LAWRENCE, WILLIAM HENRY
Age at Death (in years): 78
GRO Reference: 1945 J Quarter in WILLESDEN Volume 03A Page 336
Burial at Acton Cemetery, 17 April 1945
William Henry Lawrence
Age 78
On ancestry, England & Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers, 1800-2016. Unfortunately they don't have the image.
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And we thought the White's were a problem??
Louisa Butcher was actually born Fordingbridge 1866 as Sarah Louisa Butcher but thereafter known as Louisa.
She married a Richard Foster in 1883 and in 1891 (minus Richard) is incorrectly transcribed on Ancestry as 'Andrews' (surname of remarried mother Norah) although shown as Foster on original.
Had 4 children then, Elizabeth (actually Fanny Elizabeth), Louisa (actually Jane Louisa). Henry C W (died 1892) and Florence V (died 1891). So, the F E and J L Laurance shown in 1901 were actually Foster's from mothers first marriage. Having said that, I cannot find a marriage between a William Henry Laurance/variants and Louisa (or Sarah Louisa) Foster, nee Butcher. Come to that, cannot find a William Henry born 1867 Cornwall either!
Not an easy couple to follow on both counts!
Annette
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On 1901 census W H Laurance is shown as born Ships Mallet, Cornwall - no such place but eventually discovered this should have been Shepton Mallet, Somerset!
William Henry Lawrence was born 24/3/1867, baptised 24/4/1867 Shepton Mallet, son of William and Ann Eliza.
In 1939 he and Louisa are in Acton and his birthdate given agrees with the Shepton Mallet baptism.
Annette
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Well done for figuring out William's birth place from that 1901 entry, Annette. Was wondering where Ships Mallet was!
Monica
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Hello All. :)
Just received the marriage certificate of John George WHITE and Dorothy May Winifred LAWRENCE.
7th March 1914 at the Register Office Brentford.
John's father is Charles Edward WHITE (packing case maker).
Dorothy's father is William Henry Charles LAWRENCE (builders labourer).
Their address given, is 14 Bolls or Bolts Lane, Acton Green.
Witnesses are Laura LAWRENCE and Henry (looks like) GUDDE
Fred, could witness Laura Lawrence to Dorothy's wedding have been Louisa Lawrence rather than a Laura? Is it clearly written?
Monica
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Hi Monica.
I've just checked the marriage certificate again. It is quite clearly Laura Lawrence...
Would "Louisa" use the name "Laura", quite a possibility surely?
Fred.
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We haven't seen Louisa as Laura, even though she had a number of combinations on her name. It was just a thought really, to strengthen what has just been found by John and Annette.
Monica
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John posted earlier 1911 for Louisa with children, with no William.
Wondering if this is him in 1911.... www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW5G-P4D
Monica
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Hi all.
Birth certificate for a John George WHITE just arrived...
I've got my doubts, but...
4th Feb 1894 Brentford. Father George White, occupation Dairyman. Mother Mary White nee Lynch.
address is 19 (something like "Fendia" Road, Ealing.
F H
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Hi all.
I'm stuck now and really not sure which way to go regarding the White's.
Would you try another birth certificate???
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thank you.
F H
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Annette suggested a different birth certificate
Possibly the John George White birth reg'd Sept.qtr.1893 Fulham, mmn Coombs. If so, his parents were Edmund Joseph White and Clara Elizabeth Coombs although I can find no marriage between them.
I presumed that was the one you were going to order.
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Annette suggested a different birth certificate
Possibly the John George White birth reg'd Sept.qtr.1893 Fulham, mmn Coombs. If so, his parents were Edmund Joseph White and Clara Elizabeth Coombs although I can find no marriage between them.
I presumed that was the one you were going to order.
I too thought this was the certificate you were going to order.
Annette
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Oooops, Looks like I ordered the wrong certificate...
I'll order again, the right one this time...
Thank you.
Ordered.
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From searches a couple of weeks ago, this is the only entry I could find for a John White born in Fulham c. 1893. Entry in Chelsea in 1901:
John W White 65 b. Hutton Essex
Maria White 64 b. Hutton Essex
Annie W White 32 dressmaker b. Saint J, Westminster
Lily I White 19 dressmaker b. Chelsea
John White 8 Grandson b. Fulham
Family Search have only partial entry www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9HH-VFM
However, I couldn't see an Edmund Joseph connected to this family . Going back over the census with them, the only sons I could see were:
1881 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-H4QK
1891 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QQPB-8ZM Also showing on original image is Sydney aged 16 and Lilley S age 8. Not sure why not on FS :-\
Maria White is widowed by 1911 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWLZ-Y1D Grandson John White not showing with them.
Let's see what comes back on that birth entry :)
Monica
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Good morning all
.
The birth certificate came yesterday for John George WHITE... b. 13th May 1893 at 70 Hadyn Park Road, Shepherds Bush.
Father, Edmund Joseph WHITE occupation Engine Fitter.
Mother, Clara Elizabeth WHITE nee COOMBS
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Father, Edmund Joseph WHITE occupation Engine Fitter.
A bit more on Edmund.
He was still alive in 1939, living with his daughter Clara Elizabeth (now Mrs. Ware, married in Acton, 1920)
According to the free index to the 1939 Register, Edmond J White, born 1851, at 75 Lansbury Drive, in Hayes and Harlington U.D., Middlesex.
Death reg, again Edmond with an o
Sep 1941 Uxbridge 3a 69
White, Edmond Joseph
age 89
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Hi jonw65.
Thank you for this info.
As others mentioned previously, this whole WHITE/LAWRENCE family are sure hard to find.
F H
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Hi all.
I've been in touch with my cousins today looking for any more snippets of information that would help regarding the WHITE/LAWRENCE family.
They are sure that there is some "Irish" connection.
Hope this may help
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I don't think we have commented on this. Are these John George White's death details here www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVCR-Z2QY Very likely given that Dorothy's death details from earlier were in the same place.
Just noting the date of birth here as that mentioned by Annette much earlier on, 30 May 1893.
Monica
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Hello Monica.
Thank you. Yes, this date is correct for John George White's death at Southend.
I made a mistake with his birth date on the birth certificate.
It is the 30th May 1893 and not the 13th as I stated, sorry.
Fred.
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We already knew that the father he named when he married did not appear to exist - surely the fact that the man I'd pinpointed earlier was indeed born 30/5/1893 (which John George says he was) would mean they are one and the same?
Annette
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Looking at Edmund in the electorals at Orchard Cottage, Colville Road, Acton
But the post has been shelved for a dramatic story
Is in loads of papers, including national ones
13 August 1909
Acton Gazette
A ghastly tragedy took place outside Orchard Cottage, Colville-road, South Acton, shortly after eleven o'clock last Saturday evening. May White, aged 20, daughter of Edmund White, a case-maker at the Army and Navy Stores, Chiswick, was talking to her former lover, John Bee, when be murdered her with a razor.
Some free articles
Cardiff Times, 14 August 1909
London Love Tragedy
Rejected Swain's Jealousy
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3434947/3434950/54/
Rhyl Journal, 14th August 1909
A Broken Engagement
Tragic Sequel
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3630326/3630332/76/
On the 11th August, Evening Express
Acton Love Tragedy
Mysterious Letter at the Inquest
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4207335/4207338/98/
The Daily News (Perth, WA), 8 Oct 1909
Tragedy of a Double Life.
Discarded Suitor Murders Acton Girl and Commits Suicide.
Living Wife Revealed.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/77351495
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...May White, aged 20, daughter of Edmund White, a case-maker at the Army and Navy Stores, Chiswick, was talking to her former lover, John Bee, when be murdered her with a razor.
Awful events :-\
However, from this we have that Edmund at the time is described as a case maker....a few years later, John George described his father as a packing case maker on his marriage registration in 1914.... ::)
Monica
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....the family group that Annette has identified looks promising for John George.
Census entries for:
1901 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X96N-MZ7
1911 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW4S-6J7
Just bringing forward again the two census entries we had for the family.
Monica
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....the family group that Annette has identified looks promising for John George
The only anomaly left now really is the difference in father's name on John's marriage certificate.
Just in case the Whites and Lawrences were once neighbours! :-\
1907 Acton directory has
Colville Road
From Bollo lane to Stirling rd.
Lawrence William (Windham villa)
White Edmd. (Orchard cottage)
Edmund appears as Edward White on the electorals around that time, landing at Orchard Cottage in 1907 from 27 Stirling Road.
William Lawrence on them at Windham in 1908, probably only time.
Windham Villa sounds grand, and I suppose it might have been, but it had a platelayer and his family living there on the last census, next door to the Whites.
If so, his parents were Edmund Joseph White and Clara Elizabeth Coombs although I can find no marriage between them.
Could Edmund have already been married to someone else? :-\ Not sure!
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The only anomaly left now
I did think the "engine fitter" occupation on John's birth certificate was a bit odd!
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This 1881 entry made me laugh www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q279-B587
We have all the names we need, siblings Charles E and Edmund J born around the right time. Just a co-incidence I am sure! Their father was Charles, a plasterer.
Spent a while again trying to find a marriage for Edmund and Clara. They show in 1911 as having been married around 25 years (10 children, showing from 1887 on the censuses).
Monica
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Going on his age later (did he reduce his age to be nearer to Clara?), I did wonder about this one, fits birthday given in 1939.
WHITE, EDMUND JOSEPH ROBERT
Mother's Maiden Surname: SIMMONS
GRO Reference: 1851 S Quarter in ST JAMES CLERKENWELL Volume 03 Page 92
In Islington in 1861, age 9
piece 127 folio 32 page 18
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3FW-L9WQ
Father Edmund Richard White? Died Fulham 1893?
I think EJR White married, but not sure if more than once.
Gave up in the end!
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I think EJR White married, but not sure if more than once.
June 1870, Holborn 1b 1033
Edmond Joseph R White + Mary Hughes (probably!)
Then, 29 Feb 1880, St John Deptford
Edmund Joseph White, 28, Bachelor, Raly Guard?, father Edmund Richard White, Architect (!)
+
Mary Ann Haylock
:-\
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Wow, incredible...
Don't know what to say, except a BIG thank you to you all.
This story is starting to come alive.
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1901 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X96N-MZ7
1911 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW4S-6J7
So, we have the above likely census entries for John George's family. Have been trying and failing to find them in 1891 :-\
Some birth dates confirmed from school admission records (Wendell Park School, admission on 18 April 1898. Previously at Victoria School):
May b. 13 June 1889
Edmund b. 26 may 1890
Richard b. 24 July 1891
Monica
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Hi Monica.
Do you know if these schools were Catholic schools???
As my cousin states, her mother Doreen and brothers and sisters went to an Irish Catholic school in Ilford and her mum was adamant that the family came from Ireland.
Just wondering?
Thank you,
Fred
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They are in Hammersmith in 1891
piece 41 folio 108 page 3
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:3PGP-VW2
Youngest son Edward is on next page.
Head is Edward White, an engraver on wood
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Fred, sorry I don't know the history of the school. I found this www.wendellparkprimaryschool.co.uk/our-school/history-1 with some general background
One thing to note on religeous schools and selection by parents. John George and Dorothy did not marry in a church but a registry office. It may be that Dorothy's family were RC and she/they wanted the children to attend a RC school. Hard to say really.
Do the family members that you are working with not think that Edmund Joseph and Clara Elizabeth were John George's parents with what has been found so far?
John, thanks you for putting me out of my misery!
Monica
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June 1870, Holborn 1b 1033
Edmond Joseph R White + Mary Hughes (probably!)
A tree on ancestry has both the marriage certificate, and the birth certificate of EJR White.
The two trees I have looked at do not have him after 1871.
Birth of Edmund Joseph Robert White (very poor scan)
-teenth July 1851 at 37 Great Percy Street, Clerkenwell
Father Edmund Richard White, Artist
Mother Mary Ann White, formerly Simmons
That date of birth might be seventeenth or fourteenth? :-\
It's very close to the one on 1939 Register in Hayes & Harlington.
Marriage to Mary Hughes (better scan!)
11 May 1870, Holborn Register Office
Edmond Joseph Robert White, 18 years, Jewel hole maker, father Edmond Richard White, Artist
+
Mary Hughes, 19
EJR White is with his parents in Islington in 1871, age 19, single.
Mary White, 20, and a son, is with her brother James Hughes in 1871
In 1881 Mary is apparently in Clerkenwell, married, with said son, but no husband.
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Fred, with John George and Dorothy's children, were they baptised at a RC church I wonder? You could make enquiries on this. There will be nothing on line for this. I am thinking if you were able to find these records, godparents' names from the registers may hopefully help to confirm some of the people we have been discussing here.
Monica
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Monica, I too looked up the school and it doesn't say...
My cousins are "over the moon" by what's been found so far and asked me to pass on thanks to all concerned.
Sadly for them, not a lot was spoken regarding families. They had no idea of Edmund Joseph and Clara Elizabeth...OR the murder...
And to think of the little we all had to start with, the results have been incredible. I'm not too sure how much further this will go but, even though I've dropped a few clangers along the way, I have loved every part of it, thank you all.
Fred.
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That is great that the info unravelling is important to them. You have worked hard too on their behalf ;)
Over their early years, was there no knowledge of cousins, uncles and aunts? The granparents were also alive for a good time of their early years and would have been nearby from what we has seen so far.
I just wanted to add this info on Clara Elizabeth Coombs. We had her with her family in 1881 back in Brighton
Clara Elizabeth White, age 70. Died in 1933 (showing in Brentford, 3rd Qrt vol. 3a/pg. 113) and buried on 11 August at St Mary, Acton, Ealing.
Looks like she may have been born in Brighton. Likely birth entry for her on 4th Qrt 1862. With her family in 1881 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q274-31P3
I found this info on her father www.photohistory-sussex.co.uk/BTN1860sBoBr.htm
...Matilda Combs, Thomas Boxell's mother, had five brothers and three of these siblings went on to become professional photographers in Brighton. Charles Combs (born 1830, Seaford) and John Combs (born 1834, Seaford) had opened a daguerreotype portrait studio in Brighton in 1854. Charles and John Combs, who preferred to trade under the name of Combes rather than Combs, ended their business partnership "by mutual consent" in May 1858. Charles Combes (Combs) operated a photographic studio on the Esplanade leading to Brighton's Chain Pier and by 1862, he had opened a second studio at 19 Bedford Place, Brighton. For a short time, Charles's brother John Combes, managed a photographic studio at 62 St James' Street, Brighton, but although he worked as a photographer for nearly 50 years, he did not have the same commercial success as his older brother. Matilda's youngest brother Benjamin Combs (born 1842, Brighton), also became a professional photographer and for ten years ran his own photographic portrait studio in Bishops Stortford. Benjamin Combs eventually returned to Brighton, where he worked as a beach photographer in he 1880s and 1890s.
In 1864, Charles Combs (Combes), Thomas Boxell's uncle, was operating a photographic portrait studio in Brighton's Preston Street. It is possible that Thomas Boxell served his apprenticeship as a photographer in Charles Combes' Preston Street studio. By 1867, Thomas Boxell. then only twenty-one, felt confident enough to open his own photographic portrait studio at 40 North Street, Brighton...
Thomas Bowell was Clara Elizabeth's cousin. Her father John and Thomas's mother Matilda were siblings.
This takes you all back further on this line at least. We are still bogged down a bit on the question marks over Charles Edward v. Edmund Joseph ;D
Monica
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For those with a subs to A/try, I have just found a family tree for this line www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/117904514/person/382131277245/facts
I think tree owner is likely connected to John George's sister Elizabeth Mary b. 1897 who married and headed off the US. Not sure where and when Elizabeth Mary and husband William George Gates met (added: they married at Chiswick Registry Office on 28 Dec 1918). He was Canadian. There are a number of shipping manifests for Elizabeth and her daughter Doreen returing to the UK. Elizabeth gave the family address which we have, Orchard Cottage, Acton as her UK contact address.
Not surprisingly, the origins of Edmund Joseph White are unknown. Not a surprise really ::)
Monica
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Hi Jon.
"EJR White is with his parents in Islington in 1871, age 19, single.
Mary White, 20, and a son is with her brother James Hughes in 1871
In 1881 Mary is apparently in Clerkenwell, married, with said son, but no husband."
Do I take it that he has separated and gone off with Clara Elizabeth?
Monica,
That was very interesting regarding the photography, thank you.
Would anyone know the origin of a surname please "Pfeiffer"
This was the surname of Clara Elizabeth Coombs mother.
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A little here on the surname www.ancestry.co.uk/name-origin?surname=pfeiffer If you google, there are more links although most show similar details.
Family Search have this potential entry for Elizabeth Ann www.familysearch.org/tree/person/sources/M5FP-SJS
From Clara's parents' marriage at St Nicholas (Anglican), Brighton on 26 Jun 1856, Elizabeth Ann's father is also given as Frederick John. Husband John, showing as Combs, his father also confirmed as William as we had from that family tree earlier.
Possible entry for Elizabeth A in 1841 in Mortlake (reg district Richmond):
John Light 40 grocer (?)
Mary Pfeiffer 25 FS (femal servant)
Elizabeth Pfeiffer 10
Monica
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Hi
I think the family of Edmund Richard White the artist is rather complicated. It has come up previously on Rootschat, perhaps more in regard to one or two of his other children, than to him, or his son Edmund Joseph Robert.
Anyway, it seems certain that EJR married Mary Hughes, afterwards they have not been seen together.
I think we are a way off Clara yet.
That second marriage possibility, which would be bigamous
29 Feb 1880, St John Deptford
Edmund Joseph White, 28, Bachelor, Raly Guard, father Edmund Richard White, Architect
+
Mary Ann Haylock, 24
I think they might be in Islington in 1881, under her name!
Edward J Haylock 28 Railway Carman, born Clerkenwell
Mary Ann Haylock 25 Dressmaker, born Ely
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q279-VP5X
Unless someone can find such an Edward J Haylock!
Edmund and Clara - birth registrations of their other children, have we mentioned them much? :-\
Clara Coombs goes into Chelsea workhouse, 17 April 1887. She is 24, single, and pregnant.
Lilian (Coombes!) is born same day, entry further down the page (also on ancestry)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1L-896P-2
Clara and Lillian Coombes discharged 30 April 1887
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1L-89XJ-7
Now I have got the births of the first two
COMBES, LILIAN CLARA
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1887 J Quarter in CHELSEA Volume 01A Page 349
COMBS, MAY WHITE
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1889 S Quarter in CHELSEA Volume 01A Page 331
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I was typing this up when your reply popped up John. Seems disjointed but will add for review later!
Elizabeth Ann's father, a married man...with someone else?
1841 entry in Mortlake:
Frederick Pfeifer 55 b. Foreign parts....occupation I think reads Musician
Elizabeth Pfeifer 55
Edward Pfeifer 25 same occupation as father
Alfred Pfeifer 20 shoemaker
There could also be another son, not showing on 1841, named Frederick like father?
Monica
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Lilian and sister May's births under Coombs make sense, John. I can't remember whether from next child Edmund (or was it Richard??) that births were registered under the surname White, with mother's name noted in a variety of spellings for Coombs.
So, we are unlikely to find a marriage for them it seems :-\
Monica
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Hi
No, I don't think we will find a marriage, Monica.
I can't see an exam for Clara in Chelsea, which is a bit disappointing.
We can't be sure about who Edmund's family were, but just going back to Edmund Richard White the artist, born circa 1828 (he says in Clerkenwell), father of EJR born 1851.
It looks like by 1881 Edmund senior, age 53, has moved to Hammersmith(!) with a new young partner
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-Q4VQ
Electoral register, 1890, has an Edmund Richard White at 10 Percy Road, Hammersmith, which is very near indeed to Edmund/Edward + Clara, who were living in Davisville and Haydn Park Roads (1891 census, electoral registers, and Monica's school records)
Another newspaper sensation!
From July 1889
Edward Richard White, 61, of respectable appearance, an artist, of Percy Road, Shepherds Bush, charged with sending an explosive substance to John Theodore Tussaud, at Madame Tussaud’s Exhibition
He went to the Old Bailey
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-631-18890729&div=t18890729-631
P.S. Hope it's the same guy!
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:o Oh my!!
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Another confusing line with a brother to Edmund Joseph www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=584024.0
Monica
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Sketches by Edmund Richard White www.meisterdrucke.uk/artist/Edmund-Richard-White.html
Also, www.lotsearch.net/lot/n-a-edward-edmund-richard-white-british-active-1864-1908-40873113?page=3
He showed as exhibiting some work at the RCA over the later part of the 1800s.
Monica
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I found this family tree info on the Whites, starting with Henry White and Sophia Groves, grandparents to Edmund Joseph White www.tinkersunited.co.uk/public_dbs/linezz/p447.htm#i22342
Not much is known on Edmund Joseph sadly, but good background on some of the others.
Monica
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That second marriage possibility, which would be bigamous
29 Feb 1880, St John Deptford
Edmund Joseph White, 28, Bachelor, Raly Guard, father Edmund Richard White, Architect
+
Mary Ann Haylock, 24
I think they might be in Islington in 1881, under her name!
Edward J Haylock 28 Railway Carman, born Clerkenwell
Mary Ann Haylock 25 Dressmaker, born Ely
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q279-VP5X
John, going back to this post. I have found an A/try tree relating to the first marriage www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/15709291/person/29133961287/facts. First wife, Mary Hughes, looks to have died in 1883. Lots of details including photos for their son Thomas 1870-1916 and his children. Thomas had a big family of 11 children with his wife Florence Parker.
Monica
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Edmund Richard White remarried (2nd or 3rd time?) in 1885. He shows as a widower living at 3 Bradmore Park Terrace. His father Henry, an engraver. He married a 39 yr old spinster, Katherine O'Sullivan.
I think Edmund Joseph, son, was a witness. His signature below. Do we have anything for him to compare signatures I wonder from what we have found to date?
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Hi
I don't think the chap was doing anything like that at Tussaud's, those paintings are a great find, but I haven't found any other candidate. No doubt he could do many arty things.
In 1891 our Edmund (aka Edward) was an engraver on wood, which does sound artistic! He seems to have had quite a number of occupations!
Edmund Richard White remarried (2nd or 3rd time?) in 1885. He shows as a widower living at 3 Bradmore Park Terrace. His father Henry, an engraver. He married a 39 yr old spinster, Katherine O'Sullivan.
I think Edmund Joseph, son, was a witness. His signature below. Do we have anything for him to compare signatures I wonder from what we have found to date?
Oh, wow, I looked for any marriage online, and couldn't see one. Father also an engraver. We are accumulating a lot more info than is in the trees!
1911 census, EJ has signed, it is a bit later though. And only initials, rather than full name, on that marriage. But the signatures are not dissimilar.
John
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Continuing with signature comparisons ::)
Son Edmund b. 1890 married in 2 Nov 1913. His father showed as Edmund White, case maker. Address 30 Seymour Road. Bride a Rhoda Mary Packman, aged 23.
One of the witnesses' names caught my eye. By any stretch of the imagination, could it be May Lawrence, John George's future wife?
Fred, you have Dorothy May's signature from her 1914 marriage? Could you post a clip please?
Monica
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Further signature for Edmund Joseph White as he acted as witness to daughter Clara Elizabeth's marriage on 28 August 1920 when she married a Frederick Arthur Ware:
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Just posting for Fred the signatures from the 1914 marriage for John George and Dorothy May:
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This looks like a copy of the register as it looks to be all written by one hand? The 3 Lawrences look the same to me (two for Dorothy and one for Laura).
Monica