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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: rustyh on Wednesday 07 April 21 14:52 BST (UK)
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Good afternoon,
I am trying to find and link a family member and hitting quite a brick wall with linking her to parents etc.
Her name is Adelaide Harrison, maiden name Hall. She married in 1919 and her marriage certificate shows her at 19 years old. Fathers name on the cert is William Hall.
I believe I have located her death index in 1977 with a listed D.o.B as 4th Jan 1900.
The only relative I have doesn't remember her too well but said he is sure she had Gypsy links, and lived/grew up in Handsworth, Birmingham.
I think I have located her on a 1901 census, aged 1, living (or stopping the night) with her grandparents John and Caroline Smith at BlackPatch in Handsworth, Birmingham.
John Smith is the Son of Easu and Henty Smith who with King and Queen of the BlackPatch gypsy site.
I can not how ever link anymore information to Adelaide, such as parents, were she was in 1911, etc.
The only other piece of Information my uncle remembers is a name Billy Broadhead, who as a horse seller or breeder. I have found nothing in him what so ever, let alone linking to Adelaide, so I have mitigated that for now.
I was therefore wondering if anyone had any info on Adelaide, possible link, the Smith Gypsy family, or Billy Broadhead.
Look forward to any help you can offer
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Hi
On 1911 Census with her parents and siblings.
See www.familysearch.org
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWWW-T74
If you are not registered on this site it is free, but you will need to register to access the
Above connection.
Spendlove
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Spendlove beat me to it!
The GRO puts mothers maiden name as Griffin.
FreeBMD puts the marriage of Robert William Hall to Ellen Griffin as 1896.
And welcome to Rootschat!
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Hrm... in 1901 Adelaide is listed with parents....
Either she was double listed or there are two different ones?
1901
West Bromwich
Piece: 2721
Folio: 98
Page Number: 2
Household Schedule Number: 12
Name Age
Robert W Hall 27
Ellen Hall 27
Annie E Hall 4
Ethie Hall 2
Adalaide Hall 2/12
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Also, she was born in 1st Qrt 1901 :-\ Adelaide's birth date is consistent at 4 Jan 1900 on her 1939 entry and her death reg.
Monica
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Hi,
Thanks for the replies.
I could be wrong here, but I believe the Adelaide you have found there with father Robert William Hall is not the right Adelaide to one on thr 1901 census with John and Caroline Smith nor the one I am after.
The reason I say that is I think that's one (born 1901 and possibly wouldn't have been on thr 1901 census) ended up marrying a John William Smith, who is not my great grandad (Harold James Baden Harrison)
I belueve the Adelaide on the 1901 census with John and Caroline was in fact born in 1900, and could be the one.
I also belueve that Adelaide you mention died in 1992, but the Adelaide in my family died in 1977, a few years before her husband Harold.
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I think this. Is the Adelaide mentioned above, born 1901, and married someone different.
I found this on someone else's tree on ancestry so not saying its 100% correct
(https://ibb.co/Bj0wwgg)
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Sorry, image above didn't post properly
(https://i.ibb.co/xGx33MM/20210407-163432.jpg)
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Have to admit, I am struggling!
Came across this post here on RC which make a reference to Smith and Hall, connected to John and Caroline www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=673146.0 Can't connect these names to what I have seen so far...
My fault very likely ::)
rustyh, by chance, have you managed to put together or come across a complete set of known children for John and wife Caroline? One of them, Amelia, is covered here http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~faichney/genealogy/profile-smitha.html It was her daughter Eliza Potter who shows alongside Adelaide and grandparents in 1901.
Monica
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1891 census for Smith family in case it helps :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WQ8N-Q6Z
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Good Morning,
Thank you so much for all your help so far, she is certainly a tough nut to crack!
Yes, I have a full list of Children, will post that as soon as I get in to work
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So this is the information I have on the Smith family so far
They lived on a Gypsy Caravan and Tent site quite famous in Birmingham called Black Patch, in Handsworth Birmingham. The 1901 Census reference black patch as a location, but I think other entries in other year include the boundary road of Foundry Lane/Road, and a road leading off foundry called Anne Rd.
The site was ran by Sentenia and Esau Smith (Gypsy Queen and King). They had approx 11 children, one being John Smith (1839), who Married Caroline Lovell (1843).
What I have from a family tree book of the smiths is that John and Caroline had 11 Children also,
John Smith (1861)
Nathaniel (1865)
Centenia (1868)
Camelia/Amelia (1869)
Matilda (1872)
Georgina (1874)
Arnold (1876)
Joseph (1877)
Amy (1880)
Angelia (1883)
Wrighton (1887)
Now, listed in that book is that John (1861) married a lady called Eliza Hall (1865). Apparently, they had 15 Children in total, but only 5 daughters survived.
One of those Daughters was called Adeliade, and immediately I thought that must be the one given the Mother maiden name was Hall and Adelaide would have been John and Carolines Grand Daughter. But if you look on the 1901 Census for John and Eliza, Adeliade is listed as 6 yrs old meaning a Y.o.B of 1895.
So she must be a different Adelaide.
NOTE: There are quite a few of my messages awaiting moderator approval on page 1 that you might want to catch up on as well when they get approved
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I also spoke again with my uncle and confirmed that Adelaide Harrison died in the 70s, so the one listed in the index in 1977 seems correct.
Also, he is absolutely certain she was connected with Gypsy's, so the Adelaide list on John and Caroline's 1901 census seem like the best potential I think
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Having another look...not that I am finding anything new really :-\
On a different approach. What was William Hall's occupation on Adelaide's marriage cert? Did it show him as deceased? What were the names of the witnesses to the marriage?
The name Billy Broadhead that you have been given, any indication what role he had in Adelaide's life or her family?
Monica
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this could be the family on the 1871 census, some of the relationships are a bit odd.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5RR-7WL
Death reg Rito Smith 17 dec qtr 1905 Kings Norton vol 6c pg 251
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I saw that entry in 1871 and it certainly is all mixed up (no difference really from the original image)!
The census that is completely AWOL is 1881. Tried a bunch of combinations and cannot see anything resembling the family members.
Monica
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Having another look...not that I am finding anything new really :-\
On a different approach. What was William Hall's occupation on Adelaide's marriage cert? Did it show him as deceased? What were the names of the witnesses to the marriage?
The name Billy Broadhead that you have been given, any indication what role he had in Adelaide's life or her family?
Monica
Im not very good at transcribing, but below is the line off the marriage cert, and the second image is the whitnesses.
My uncle doesnt know what the relation was wiht Billy Broadhead, other than knowing he was a Horse Dealer, but then alot of the men on the Black Patch were horse dealers!
Im really not sure if the Billy Broadhead part is just and old comment that has stuck
(https://i.ibb.co/YT7vJDG/CCI-000038.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/8bthdwQ/CCI-000037.png)
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this could be the family on the 1871 census,
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5RR-7WL
Death reg Rito Smith 17 dec qtr 1905 Kings Norton vol 6c pg 251
This kind of seems right, the relationships might match up. Is there an image of the census to see if it has been transcribed right.
John Smith was baptised on 1st September 1839 and the son of Sentenia and Esau Smith. The 1871 census was taken in April 1871, so he was likely 31 year of age.
He Married Caroline Lovell, who was baptised on 12th Feb 1843. So she was likely 28.
Could her name have been transcribed or writting incorrectly as Leana?
It is believed they had 11 Children, of which on that list
John, Born approximately 1861, Died 20/6/1940 (Married Eliza Hall, born 28/07/1865, died 19/1/1939, and parents were Isaiah and Sarah)
Nathaniel, Baptised 28/6/1865 (married Emma Caroline Owen)
Cantenia, Baptised 2/9/1868 - But not listed on that census, so maybe she died?
Camelia (possibly Amelia), Baptised 31/1/1869, Died 1951 (had 3 marriaged, William Lines, Reuben Potter, and Hary Worral.........I believe Eliza Hall from John and Carolines 1901 census could be Reuben and Camelias daughter as they had 3 children.......Reuben (1894), Nehemiah (1896) and Eliza (1897) She is obviously completely different to the Carmelia on the census as name is slightly different and age is completely out. So Carmelia must be one of Johns or Carolines siblings children.
John Smith (Senior), had a brother called Mezia. So it would seem he was staying with John at the time of the Census and the "Father" relation is incorrect. I think Mezia married Carolina Loveridge, but there is very little information on him and them
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you can check the census entry on whichever site you use ref RG10/3086 folio 32 pg 6 but it's an accurate transcription. We usually link to the FamilySearch transcription as it's free, no point in linking to a paid site that people can't access.
The witnesses are Herbert Haines & Louise Lowe, William Hall's occupation carter.
Possibly Leana was short for Caroline?
Marriage of Nathaniel to widowed Emma Caroline Owen showing her father as John Hill
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXRQ-GP9
His baptism in Kenilworth, father John a basket maker
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XXYX-KVK
Is this the baptism for Cantenia? The date matches. John noted as carpenter, address High St Bordesley
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMKF-C38
Possible marriage for Camelia to William Lines, John and the 2 Williams noted as general dealer
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NVN9-PRY
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baptism for Amy in 1880
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMHV-9N5
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Glad you mentioned, Amy ::)
The younger daughters we have for John and Caroline:
Georgina b. c.1873
Amy b 1880
Angelina b. 1883...I think she died in 1898.
Both show in the household in 1901 with parents John and Caroline.
I think Amy married Thomas Broadhead in Aston 3rd Qrt 1914 (6d/1154). However, they were already living together by 1911 and with them at Thomas Broadhead's grandparents' family house is...Adelaide Broadhead, daughter b. 1900 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWZ4-J45 :o
Aston area is of course where Adelaine married in 1919.
Monica
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Osprey, not sure about you, but I am now open minded to any event! If Amy was mother, she still showed as single in 1901. A William Hall a reputed father?
Added: From the 1911 census, Amy Smith was certainly acting as mum stating she and Thomas had been married 11 yrs and had one living child (Adelaide).
Monica
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Wow...... So there could well be a link to this Billy Broadhead mentioned.
You lot are awesome detectives, I would never have gotten this far
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Could Adelaide Hall in 1901 have become Adelaide Broadhead in 1911, but went back to Hall when she married my Great Grandfather, or do you think this could still be a different Adelaide
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At a guess, her father was a William Hall. Her birth should have been registered under Smith or Hall (not that we have found it yet). With her mother taking up with Thomas Broadhead, not unusual that children would show under step father's surname. Adelaide did know her father's name and chose to go by that surname it seems.
I am sure from memory that Amy Smith showed as single in 1901. We need to double check.
Thomas Broadhead does look to have a big brother William. From 1891, I think this is the family www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WPMP-M6Z
Added: 1901 here www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS87-G78
Monica
Added: The Smiths in 1901 from earlier www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSQP-1HT I made a mistake earlier. Georgina is no longer at home now.
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William back with parents for 1911 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWZ8-3YS (whilst Thomas, as we have, is living with this grandparents).
Monica
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rustyh, I think you have got access to Find my Past or Ancestry? If so, check Thomas and Amy Broadband's address on the 1939 Register...which is a match to something we have already....
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Broadband of Broadhead?
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;D I have broadband current problems like many....and yes, should have written Broadhead!
Monica
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Now the coincidences are rolling in, Ive had these exact pages of the 1939 reg for weeks now, and never even spotted it.
Below are the pages to the reg, the reason Ive posted 2 is that when I search Thomas and Amy Broadhead, I immediately spotted the name at the top of the list.......James T Harrison......thats my Grandad. Scolling back one page, there are his parents, Harold and Adelaide Harrison. I never even spotted that, so Broadhead lived on the same street as Adelaide!!
Thomas and Amy Broadhead
https://1drv.ms/u/s!An8I-TRkF-r2hfUtvRi41HU-PqOzuw?e=1GcpPd (https://1drv.ms/u/s!An8I-TRkF-r2hfUtvRi41HU-PqOzuw?e=1GcpPd)
Harold and Adelaide
https://1drv.ms/u/s!An8I-TRkF-r2hfUuDvL7XEvZf5grNQ?e=gptXck (https://1drv.ms/u/s!An8I-TRkF-r2hfUuDvL7XEvZf5grNQ?e=gptXck)
High Park Street long gone now, replace with a Chinese food distribution centre!!!
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And...the house number that Amy and Thomas are living at in 1939 is the one that Adelaide gave as her residence in 1919.
High Park Street long gone now, replace with a Chinese food distribution centre!!!
I did try to find it and guessed it was not there any more.
Monica
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Yeah, I think St Clements Church is still standing which some of them probably married at.
Talk about a jigsaw!
If William is Thomas big brother, is he Adelaides father and if so Where does the "Hall" come to it?
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I don't think Thomas' brother William had a child with Amy. I think you are still looking for a William Hall, carter.
Adelaide could have lied at the time of her marriage and married as Broadhead and given Thomas as her father (many children in her situation did just that). In her case, she was very clear with everything and consistent! In the absence still of a birth reg for now, I would still go with what info she gave.
Need to keep looking for her birth reg and any clues for a possible father, William Hall.
Monica
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Right, this is a mine field! :o :o
So is Adelaide related to Amy and Thomas Broadhead?
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Good chance Amy Smith could be mum...
Need to find Adelaide's birth reg. Up to then, we are just guessing!
Monica
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Thank you for all you help Monica and Osprey
Would no way have gotten this far myself
From the GRO
There are only two Adelaide Halls in 1900 and had Mother's maiden names of Ansdell or Carter.
There are two Adelaide Smiths (one from West Bromwich) with mothers maiden names of Hall and Conroy (Conroy being the one from West Brom).
And none called Adelaide Broadhead
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And that is why we are still stuck on her birth :-\
Monica
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Oh my goodness! Well done!
Can't see the marriage to Thomas Broadhead online. Did notice that the date of birth given for Amy is after the date of her baptism. Her death reg is in 1967 so just before dates of birth show on index.
I'd come to the same conclusion that Angelina had died. There does appear to be a birth registration for her
Angelina Smith march qtr 1883 Kings Norton vol 6c pg 501 mmn Lovell.
Sorry, that Adelaide Smith mmn Hall is registered in the North East and in june qtr when her birth reg should be in the march qtr for a January birth. She's unlikely to be Broadhead as she used the name Hall.
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Not sure if there help or are completely irrelevant,
But there are the following Adelaides born Q1 1900 with the Birmingham area
Adelaide Ganner (Born Dudley, 6c, 129)
Adelaide Harvey (Born West Bromwich, 6b, 929)
Adelaide Lovesey (Born West Bromwich, 6b, 923)
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What you can use as a double check pre summer 1911 (after this date, FreeBMD also show this) is the actual GRO site to check on births and mother's maiden names.
If you haven't used it before, you need to register here www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp You can then search and order certs direct online with them.
It is what I have been using. I haven't been able to find anything so far under Smith or Hall 1st Qrt 1900, any first name, within the areas we know the family were living in.
Monica
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The full refs for the marriage of Amy Smith are:
Marriages 3rd Qrt 1914
Amy SMITH/ Thomas Broadhead
Aston
Vol. 6d/ pg. 1154
Monica
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Thanks Monica, yes I've been using GRO, that's were I got hold of Harold and Adelaides marriage cert from.
I have also ordered Adelaides Death cert, but I doubt there will be any useful on there to help us.
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think this could be Caroline Lovell's baptism on the day she was born, father noted as travelling tinker. In Haseley, next to Hatton which is what is given as her place of birth on later census entries.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NVSM-1YL
Adelaide's place of birth from 1901 is Handsworth, Staffordshire so birth should be West Bromwich.
Harvey birth has mmn Hughes and Lovesey has Williams.
Black Patch was in Handsworth so Staffordshire even though is so close to Birmingham. Just makes the searches more interesting.
:)
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And Billy B...I think this is his death date:
William G Broadhead
Age 71
Registration Date: Jan 1937, Birmingham, Warwickshire
Vol. 6d/ pg. 87
Monica
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I'm new to all this but Would it be wroth noting all the churches of marriage and baptisms and searching there records in Jan, Feb and March 1900 to see if an Adelaide was Baptised in them. Kind of assuming people often used the same Church for everything
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think that might be a bit too much to assume. Having looked up travellers before, I would say there seem to be some churches that are favoured but that could be down to the routes they followed.
I've looked on Findmypast, FamilySearch and Ancestry for an Adelaide with mother Amy and haven't found anything likely so far.
::)
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I think if you have access to these records then yes have a look through them to check.
I think in the excitement of finding Adelaide with Amy, I am guilty of letting guesses grab hold ::) Bad call really! You need to double check now and perhaps order the marriage of Amy to Thomas in 1914. I was looking at the 1911 census entry again, with Tom at this grandparents. His grandparents Tom and Ann are showing as only having had one child. This does not fit with the family we were looking at headed up by George and Catherine/Kate. So happpens there are two Thomas Broadheads born c. 1881-2 in the Birmingham area, and were were looking at the wrong one...so goodbye to that son/brother Billy :-\
I think this is the correct family:
1861 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7K1-NRW The young Thomas I believe is Tom's father.
1871 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5YL-5XQ
Struggling with 1881 and 1891, but I think this is young Thomas, again with grandparents, and a wife in 1901 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSZ6-D3Q We have 1911 from earlier.
Would help you to confirm this through registrations though ;) Doesn't help you with Adelaide, but Thomas Broadhead looks to have very much featured in her life and your family, so would be good for you to be certain of his roots.
Monica
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Thomas Broadhead b. 1855 married Sarah Armstrong in 1876 (parish marriage entry at Nechells, St Clement on a/try). I think this is him with his parents and wife www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27N-FL5W His age is wrongly indexed. He would be c. 26 not 46. Young Thomas would have been born not long after the 1881 census.
Monica
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his first marriage march 1901 Aston vol 6d pg 363 with Alice Jane Watts on the same page.
Death reg Alice Jane Broadhead 19 dec qtr 1901 vol 6d pg 244
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I've been distracted by Caroline Lovell's family. I think this is a sister of Caroline so possibly the Hercules on Caroline's baptism was an attempt at the first name
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NG2Z-6SW
In 1871 there's an Archelaus Lovell with daughter Selina Clayton married to Frank/Francis
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27N-9R9R
Selina is Ann Selina on some records and I've spotted Ancelina on one, the 1901 census when they're at Black Patch in Handsworth, next page to the Smith group
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSQ5-M6P
the daughter enumerated as Mildred is baptised as Esmerelda 5 Jun 1889, Phineas is registered and baptised as Felix 19 March 1882.
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Fascinating and frustrating group to follow up on ;D
You comment about first names, I am thinking this might be contributing to the problem in finding Adelaide's birth maybe.
Monica
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Wow. While I've been cruising through baptism records with no luck for Adelaide, you have all been highly productive!
As to Thomas Broadhead: his birth date is given as 26 Apr 1881. There is a baptism for a Thomas Richard Broadhead which states a birth date of 27 Apr 1881. (This is the one in Aston, son of George and Catherine). You have already dismissed him, but one day out for a birthday is sooo close! Of course it can't be him, as he is still with wife Sarah in 1925 records.... but what a coincidence.
It's like this family doesn't want unravelled!
There are several William Hall's with the occupation of carter, but as I look at them, there is nothing to attach them to Amy.
My thoughts are that either Amy and a William Hall had a "rendevouz", or Adelaide just made up a father for her marriage registration.
The Smith family in general doesn't seem to register a lot of the births.... not helpful!
I shall resume trolling through baptisms, and hope you have it all solved when I return!
(Well done, Monica and Osprey!)
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And just for fun, as we don't know if there is another Caroline Smith:
Birmingham Daily Post 31 March 1900
Handsworth Police - At Handsworth Police Court,
yesterday morning before Messrs. Griffiths, C.O. Ellis,
J. Lones, and W. E. Parkes -- Caroline Smith, a gipsy
from the "Black Patch", a piece of wasteground near to
Tangye's Works, was fined 40s, and 7s.6d costs, or
fourteen days, for fortune-telling.
Earlier Osprey gave the link for Amy's baptism. There is a related baptism (cousin? brother?) directly across from it on the facing page: (link goes to image)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-X43S-XJZ?i=264&cc=1462403
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wow, you are finding out so much about the family, but your right, its like a tangled web.
I may have found a lead to try in a publicaiton I bought.
There is a son of Woodfine and Sarah Smith (these are the parents of Esau Smith.
His name is Zachariah Smith (1806) who married Ann Davis (1812)
There have 9 children, one of which was called Jerusalem Smith (Baptised 3/12/1846) Note: This has aka Reuben Davis next to his name for some reason
Jerusalem Married Amelia (Camelia) Smithn (born 1855) who is down as the daughter of Esau and Sentenia Smith. So he married his cousin!!
They had 8 Children, one of which was named Sarah Smith (1872)
Sarah Married John Wilson on 15/04/1895 at St James, Handsworth.
Sarah and John had 4 Children, one of which was called Adelaide (born cira 1900)
Maybe there is a link to a hall somewhere!
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Hmmm, having said that, the only Adelaide Wilson on GRO is Q4 1900 in Hartlepool!!
WILSON Adelaide Hartlepool 10a 165
:o :o :o
But then on the march 1901 census she is down as 10 month old, which would suggest May born.
There also doesn't seem to be a husband living with Sarah.
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the 1839 baptism for John, search for image 110
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NGBH-SG4
Possible marriage for Woodfine Smith & Sarah Bozwell, image 357
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NVWP-X65
Marriage 20 Nov 1811 in Newnham, Northamptonshire for Jeremiah Smith & Rhode Smith, no witnesses noted.
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I googled "Romany gypsy naming convention" and found this, although American based, touches on all gypsies, and he mentions they have more than one first name.... one used in their own circles, one for when out in public, and often a third nickname used amongst their own encampment. He also mentions they don't register their births unless they need it later in life, by which point most don't remember the correct date: http://johncooke.com/old_site/name/gypsy.htm
It might be worth cruising through this old forum thread, where some people have found various first names for some of your Smiths: https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/black-patch.10821/page-5
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(https://i.ibb.co/YT7vJDG/CCI-000038.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/8bthdwQ/CCI-000037.png)
I thought at first that William's occupation said "carter". Could it be "caster"?
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I think it is carter, bbart. Look at the R in Park (High Park St). We also have a S in Spinster which looks a little different.
Monica
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Not connected to Adelaide but just trying to add details to the family line for John S and wife Caroline. A son Joseph born 1876 is showing as a son of theirs on a number of family trees. There is a little on him online including his move to the US where he died in 1965 www.findagrave.com/memorial/148386289/joseph-smith
He married in Handsworth in 1899 to a Mary Ann Pearce. His father shows as John Smith, horse dealer. A daughter Edith born in England and they left for the US in 1904.
I am just having a problem getting something definitive on him to connect him to John S and Caroline. We have so far not found the family's 1881 census entry which is a pity as it would have helped generally to sort out the main group of their children. He is not with them in 1891. He was married by 1901.
His application for naturalization in the US (Connecticut) gives his birth as 8 Nov 1876.
Can anyone see a birth or christening entry for him, or anything further that would help to confirm his parents?
Monica
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not seeing a birth with mmn Lovell or a baptism. Address given on marriage cert is 44 Downing Street.
1901 census 44 Downing Street RG13/2708 folio 28 pg 4
John Smith head mar 70 hawker b. Birmingham
Caroline wife 50 b. Staffs Wolverhampton
???
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So it is a match on the address at least. There is another Joseph born about the same time/ locality and also married a Mary Ann which muddies the water a bit.
This is Joseph and new family in 1901 at Black Patch www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSQP-L47
bbart, we were talking about being a Caster by trade, this Joseph is a Brass Caster ;)
US censuses for Joseph and family:
1910 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MK2P-QJK
1920 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MCNP-2CM
1930 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XM52-VMX
1940 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KWM9-7X2
Then we have naturalization papers for him and wife Mary Ann (includes photos of both) and their deaths/burial.
Would be good to actually confirm his parents as John and Caroline (with a name like John Smith ::)).
Monica
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John & Caroline are in the caravans at Black Patch in 1901 with granddaughter Adelaide Hall. So are there 2 couples called John & Caroline or one couple enumerated twice?
I was having another look for the 1881 census and looked at the rest of Foundary(sic) Road in 1891 and spotted Esau & Centy
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WQ8X-S3Z
There are some other Smith families and Claytons camped there.
;)
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Can't be the same couple :-\ As you say, the right John and Caroline are at Black Patch in 1901. The right John was born 1839 whilst the John at 44 Downing Street in 1901 is showing as aged 70, born c.1831.
So, looks like someone may have picked up on John and Caroline "Black Patch" as the parents of their Joseph....and built their ancestry around them?
Monica
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Just found a couple in the 1911 that might be the same people
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWWW-FTB
John of the family we're looking at died in 1909 according to the info supplied.
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The other John and Caroline are Nathaniels Son and Daughter
Nathaniel is another son of John and Caroline listed first.
Not sure if you got the link to the one drive folder with all the family tree I sent you on PM, but that lists out the sons and daughters.
I'm not bringing to much to the party, sorry. You are finding out so much!
There has to be some link somewhere to Adelaide Hall :o
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Just found a couple in the 1911 that might be the same people
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWWW-FTB
John of the family we're looking at died in 1909 according to the info supplied.
Hmmmm, it could be, but some of the information is mismatch. Like she was born 1849, but the tree I sent shows her Baptised 12/2/1843. And shows her born in Stafford, but in the tree she was Baptised in Haseley. These are quite far apart.
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Just thinking, there is alot of information aboit the wider family being built up from the start of this thread that is just getting more and more interesting.
You all use alot more places to find the info that I knew about, but I was wondering if there was a free place we could start to log all these branches to help not get lost in it all, that we all have access too.
I use Ancestry which I know not everyone uses
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Just found a couple in the 1911 that might be the same people
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWWW-FTB
Certainly two couples, osprey. Thanks for that as I have spent a while trying to include or exclude that Joseph from the main Smith family we are looking at!
This Caroline's birth place, Bloxwich, is the same as Joseph Smith gave on his US naturalization papers. So, everything together, makes me happy now to put this Joseph aside as not connected (in my opinion).
Monica
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Russ, that is a great idea :)
Can I suggest something for you to consider first? If you, I would use A/try for now to build up the tree. It is there and you are familiar with it. It is a large complicated tree and you have now a lot of material.
Once you are happy and confident about how all the info comes together and sources, then you can look out to link your info to other sites and let people know you have this (reason it is important for you to be confident about the material you are adding and original sources).
For example, there is another board here on RC that you could add a post with a link to this thread so anybody interested in this family and looks there first, they could be signposted here. See www.rootschat.com/forum/travellers/
Monica
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Rustyh, you'll find that ages and places of birth can vary quite widely when researching traveller families. The first names can vary as well (the variants of Esau & Sentenia wouldn't get picked up by soundex) and when that goes with the Smith surname, and moving around at least 3 counties, it all gets rather tricky.
I've been working through some of the families from the details you gave in case I can find them in 1881. No joy as yet.
The John from Downing Street was born c.1830 according to the 1901 census so which Nathaniel was his father? I found a Nathaniel who was the son of Jeremiah & Rhode but he was baptised in 1827 so couldn't be the father of that John.
???
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I think I have confused things with the enquiries on the Joseph Smith I was looking at ::)
Hmmmm, it could be, but some of the information is mismatch. Like she was born 1849, but the tree I sent shows her Baptised 12/2/1843. And shows her born in Stafford, but in the tree she was Baptised in Haseley. These are quite far apart.
We can ignore this couple, Russ. The correct John and Caroline are at Black Patch, with Adelaide Hall, in 1901. The other couple are just a co-incidence with names and all of that!
Monica
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The John from Downing Street was born c.1830 according to the 1901 census so which Nathaniel was his father? I found a Nathaniel who was the son of Jeremiah & Rhode but he was baptised in 1827 so couldn't be the father of that John.
???
From the tree data I have
John Smith (Son of Sentenia and Esau Smith) was Baptised 1st September 1839 in Ryton, Warwickshire. He was buried in Smethwick, 16/07/1909 (70 yrs old).
Nathaniel was the second child of John and Caroline Smith née Lovell. Baptised in St John's Church, Kenilworth on 28/06/1865.
Nathaniel married Emma Caroline Owen.
Note: John and Carolines first child was son John, born 1861. Married Eliza Hall, and died 20/06/1940 in Smethwick age 79.
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Note: John and Carolines first child was son John, born 1861. Married Eliza Hall, and died 20/06/1940 in Smethwick age 79.
That Eliza Hall had a brother William born 1875. Their father was Isaiah/Isaac Hall, horse dealer and hawker, mother is Sarah (possibly maiden name Poole... still tracking that).
I cannot find a "for sure" William in the 1901, but I'm pointing the finger at him as Adelaide's father!
The Halls came from Shropshire and ended up in Staffordshire, and by memory in the 1891 were in a gypsy camp. (Don't trust my memory!)
Edit: I think Monica or Osprey already mentioned this William.... I can't keep up with the posts!
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could be one of these birth registrations
William Hall june qtr 1874 Madeley vol 6a pg 665 mmn Poole **
William Henry Hall jun qtr 1875 Stoke on Trent vol 6b pg 255 mmn Poole
Looks like the first one
baptism in Broseley 12 June 1874 William son of Isaac, traveller, & Sarah Hall
1891 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WQB4-S3Z
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;D Not sure we have...but have to say, I am Smithed out for the night now!
Your idea is good. Certainly in the right age group for Amy Smith. In the absence still of a birth reg for Adelaide, my money is on Amy being mum with what we have so far. Adelaide could have simply shown on the 1911 census as niece, but she was down as daughter. Amy was also creative about being married 11 years to Thomas Broadhead and having only child in the marriage on that census entry. Whilst we know Thomas was not father, Amy certainly comes across as likely being mother I think.
As for William Hall, carter??
Monica
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There is a William Hall, born Shropshire, living in Hanley, Staffordshire with wife Ellen (turned out to be Eleanor) and 1 yr old son, Enos, in the 1901. He is in the blast furnace occupation. Carter may have been a temporary job?
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this 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW7H-6QP
maiden name on birth reg for Enos is Simpson so this marriage, father noted as Richard Hall
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLQ4-RFQD
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this 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW7H-6QP
maiden name on birth reg for Enos is Simpson so this marriage, father noted as Richard Hall
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLQ4-RFQD
Ah, good; then he is eliminated! On to the next potential William Hall!
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just been having another look for the Halls. The youngest daughters on the 1891 census seem to be
Supporia = Zipporah birth reg march qtr 1881 Congleton Cheshire and baptised 14 March 1881 daughter of Isaiah, mechanic, and Sarah Hall address Dane St.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F3VL-MJ4
Wedie = Beatrice in 1891 but may have been baptised 4 Nov 1885 in Heath Town, Staffs, as Clara daughter of Isaiah, basket maker, and Sarah Hall
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J7XK-H9T
Inger = Edna baptised 1 Sep 1889 Bosbury Herefordshire daughter of Isaiah & Sarah Hall
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NY8Q-FQP
1901 census in Smethwick in a caravan
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSSP-JFL
next caravan the family of John Smith & Eliza Hall
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSSP-JF1
1871 census in Cheshire
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBJQ-PF4
death reg for Isaiah
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2JC5-YLM
but still no William.
:-\
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I still have hopes for the William Hall, brother-in-law to Amy, but I did catch sight of one more that I haven't had time to check out (and still don't!)
He was born in Handsworth in 1865, and living with his sister, widow Emma Smith and her son, Arthur Smith. She is the widow of a Joseph Smith. William was living with her in both 1901 and 1911, and I haven't had a chance to look further. He was still single by 1911.
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Good Day,
Sorry for lack of replies. I have been putting in the Gypsy family tree from the publication I have in to Ancestry. Hopefully it will add some help to piecing all these finds together.
Are you able to access Ancestry?
While inputting all the data in, I have come across another Adelaide born 1900. Adelaide Wilson, Daughter of John Wilson and Sarah Wilson nee Smith.
Sarah is the Daughter of Camelia Smith, who married Jerusalem Smith. Camelia is Johns Sister (John Smith and Caroline Lovell)
Im not sure she is the right Adelaide as I still cant hook her up to a Hall, and John wouldnt be her Grandfather based on that
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Rustyh, keep in mind some of that data may be incorrect!
The Joseph from 44 Downing St does not appear to be in the right family, and neither does Matilda. When I have time will post my reasons why!
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think Adelaide Wilson may have come up earlier. Or it could be that this family are now haunting me. Anyway, Adelaide Wilson is also at Black Patch in 1901.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSQ5-M66
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Or it could be that this family are now haunting me.
Me too! They invaded my dreams last night!
Anyways, real quick, as I have some time restraints over the next couple days...
Matilda Smith married Albert Edward Vale, in Handsworth, 1893. (Both her and Albert were witnesses on Joseph of 44 Downing St. marriage). Matilda puts her father as John Smith, carter. Her address is William Street West, Handsworth.
Matilda and Albert moved to Connecticut after the 1911 UK census and are buried there (Anc. has the grave inscriptions).
On the 1911, she says she is born in Coventry.... possible matching GRO birth puts mmn as Loveridge, but I can't find a match for Joseph, if they are siblings.
Rustyh, keep in mind, a high percent of women did not give accurate information on the 1911, as it was an outlet to rebel against their lack of rights.
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1891 census for same family as Smith and they're at Foundry Road/Black Patch
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WQ8D-J2M
baptisms 22 Sept 1878 Polesworth, Warwickshire to Jerusalem, hawker, & Carnelia Smith of Brimingham
George born 20 Jan 1878
Charlotte born 1 June 1876
baptised same day
Floria born Nov 1877 child of Denis, hawker, & Cinnamente Loveridge of Birmingham - just in case they're part of the family
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i know the feeling, this will be the ancestry crack of the centry getting to the bottom of this family!
That seems correct on Matilda and Albert, I believe they had 2 children, Florence and Elsie.
Matiltda was from the same parents as John (married Caroline) and Amelia (married Potter, whos Daughter was stopping with her grand parents John Smith and Caroline Lovell on the 1901 census). Matilda also had a sibling called Joseph (see below)
(https://i.ibb.co/TqzYF6M/Map.png)
Adelaide Wilson seems to be part of the same Smith family (which is turning out to be huge!), see below
(https://i.ibb.co/1J0CkLc/Map2.png)
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Joseph is showing as living at 31 Charles Street, Hansworth in 1901 with Mary and daughter Edith.
But I think they moved to New Haven, Connecticut, USA in the 1910 census
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The passenger list for Matilda and Albert Vale with their five children states they are going to Albert's brother-in-law Joseph Smith in Connecticut.
So Matilda is sister to Joseph. However, Joseph's marriage address of 44 Downing St. leads to a John and Caroline Smith that show in 1901 (from memory) at the same as the John and Caroline with Amy and baby Adelaide are shown. Somehow these families got merged into one.
Gah!
Also, on one of that Camelia's marriages, she says her father is John Smith, General Dealer.
It is possible on the 1901 where John/Caroline show as having Eliza Potter and Adelaide Hall as grandchildren, they should have said grandniece.... at least for Eliza?
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John and Caroline Smith nee Lovell, are Joseph and Matilda's Parents.
They are also Amelia Smiths paretns, whom married Rueben Potter and had daughter Eliza Potter. So John and Caroline are Eliza Potters Grand Parents
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I had the death certificate through for Adelaide today, but as expected very little information to help. I was hoping there would be a useful name under the Informant, but not to be.
It just confirms the information we already know of Maiden Name "Hall" and D.o.B 4/1/1900
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The passenger list for Matilda and Albert Vale with their five children states they are going to Albert's brother-in-law Joseph Smith in Connecticut.
So Matilda is sister to Joseph. However, Joseph's marriage address of 44 Downing St. leads to a John and Caroline Smith that show in 1901 (from memory) at the same as the John and Caroline with Amy and baby Adelaide are shown. Somehow these families got merged into one.
Gah!
Also, on one of that Camelia's marriages, she says her father is John Smith, General Dealer.
It is possible on the 1901 where John/Caroline show as having Eliza Potter and Adelaide Hall as grandchildren, they should have said grandniece.... at least for Eliza?
John and Caroline Smith nee Lovell, are Joseph and Matilda's Parents.
They are also Amelia Smiths paretns, whom married Rueben Potter and had daughter Eliza Potter. So John and Caroline are Eliza Potters Grand Parents
Joseph Marriage cert has Father as John Smith, and then Whitnesses of Florence Smith and Albert Edward Vale
Albert is as above, Matilda's Husband. Florence I can not find in the tree, possibly one of the missing Spouses I havnt found yet.
Joseph and Matilda had around 10 Siblings, as follows
John Smith and Caroline Smith nee Lovells - Children
John Smith (1861)
Nathaniel Smith (1865)
Centenia Smith (1868)
Amelia Smith (1869)
Matilda Smith (1872)
Georgina Smith (1874)
Arnold Smith (1876)
Joseph Smith (1877)
Amy Smith (1880)
Angelina Smrtih (1883)
Wrighton Smith (1887)
Reto (Rito, Rilo) Smith (1888)
Note: I have not confirm all these as true yet, and these from the published tree I have.
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Downing Street by the way is very close to Black Patch Park as well, practically leads off Foundry Lane
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there are 2 different couples named John & Caroline Smith.
your couple at Black Patch in 1901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSQP-1H1
& 1891
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WQ8N-Q6Z
no Joseph or Matilda with them
And then the other John & Caroline Smith who in 1901 are living at the same address given by Joseph Smith on this marriage to Mary Ann Pearse
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSQP-KB1
1893 marriage for Matilda
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXR3-GCP
address given on marriage register for Matilda is William Street
This Smith family is in William Street in 1891 with a Matilda & a Joseph
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WQ8F-CW2
As MonicaL said some posts backs, it looks like someone has conflated 2 different families in their research.
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Right, sorry, hadnt caught that, blimey, it's a. A mess
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This isn't a potential other Matilda Smith is it ??? :o
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23794660?h=1d69a5
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Hi Black Patch team ;)
Sorry for absence. Sometimes real life takes over again ::)
Russ, from your list of children for John and Caroline, I think these two are the same person:
Wrighton Smith (1887)
Reto (Rito, Rilo) Smith (1888)
I think Rito (and the rest) are very likely just variants of the name Wrighton.
Monica
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I also wondered whether daughter Centenia b. 1868 from your list, could also have been known as Rosanna? We have a 3 yr old daughter Roseanna showing in that messy 1871 census from earlier www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5RR-7WL
Monica
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Have we got this? Carmelia/Amelia's christening entry www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NYDQ-LS4
Purely hypothetical, I would suggest that the 1871 census for the family (the really messy one!) should probably have read something like this:
John/Mezie Smith...we have 2 entries, father/head, ages 25 and 30
Leanne...we are guessing this is Caroline. We have 2 entries, both wife, age 30 and 24
John Smith 10 son
Nathaniel Smith 6 son
Centenia/Rosanna 3 daughter...have any registrations been found for Centenia?
Camilia 2 daughter...reads 22 daughter in law, which makes no sense
www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NYDQ-LS4
Monica
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Centenia/Rosanna 3 daughter...have any registrations been found for Centenia?
Monica of the Black Patch Team
From the booklet that Rustyh has, Centenia was baptised in 1868 at Bordesley War.
The transcription at FindMyPast has this:
Cendenia Amy
Last name Smith
Gender Female
Birth year -
Birth place -
Baptism year 1868
Baptism date 02 Sep 1868
Place Bordesley
County Warwickshire
Country England
Father's first name(s) John
Father's last name Smith
Mother's first name(s) Cendenia
And this birth registration:
First name(s) Cendenia Amy
Last name Smith
Birth quarter 3
Birth year 1868
Mother's maiden name Causon
District Aston
County Warwickshire
Country England
Volume 6D
Page 228
The mmn is probably a mistranscribed "Carson"?
And then sadly, this:
First name(s) Amy Cindenia
Last name Smith
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1869 (This should be 1868 assuming it is a match).
Age 0
Death quarter 2
Death year 1869
District Aston
County Warwickshire
Volume 6D
Page 142
Edit:
From Freebmd:
Marriages Jun 1853 (>99%)
Canson Sendria Gloucester 6a 429 Scan available - click to view
Causon Sendria Gloster 6a 429 Scan available - click to view
Hamblet John Gloucester 6a 429 Scan available - click to view
Smith John Gloster 6a 429 Scan available - click to view
Smith Mary Ann Gloster 6a 429
John and "Cinderien" Smith in the 1871:
Registration district: Aston
Sub-registration district: Deritend
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Household schedule number: 53
Piece: 3135
Folio: 117
Page number: 10
So after all that, the wrong baptism has been attached in the booklet, so Centenia/Centenia could still be that Rosanna. :-\
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I think your right on the Wrighton and Reto names being the same person.
I can not find anything on Centenia Smith, so maybe she is Rosanna as you say.
On the 1891 Census, John Jnr, Nathaniel, Centenia / Rosanna, Amelia and Matilda are not present with John and Caroline. But they would all be of an age to have moved on.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WQ8N-Q6Z (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WQ8N-Q6Z)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802239?h=276a1f&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802239?h=276a1f&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url)
Living in Foundary Road (Black Patch)
John and Caroline Smith
Georgina
Arnold
Amy
Angelina
Reto
(No Joseph listed either)
In 1901 Census, all but Amy and Reto have moved on, with Grand Daughters Eliza Potter and Adelaide Hall staying there
1901 Census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WQ8N-Q6Z (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WQ8N-Q6Z)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802248?h=3916e4&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802248?h=3916e4&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url)
Living in Black Patch
John and Caroline Smith
Amy
Reto
(No Joseph listed either)
Nathaniel Smith
Baptism - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802079?h=1ddd2b&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802079?h=1ddd2b&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url)
Marriage - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802113?h=93dc25&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802113?h=93dc25&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url)
1901 Census - Living At Black Patch - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802248?h=3916e4&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802248?h=3916e4&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url)
1911 Census - Maybe? -https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWWW-PGD (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWWW-PGD)
Amelia Smith
Marriage - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802143?h=799c0f&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802143?h=799c0f&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url)
Matilda Smith
Marriage - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802160?h=810f9e&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802160?h=810f9e&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url)
Arnold Smith
1901 Census
Living at Blackpatch - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802160?h=810f9e&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802160?h=810f9e&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url)
Amy Smith
Baptism - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMHV-9NR (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMHV-9NR)
1901 Census - Living At Black Patch - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802248?h=3916e4&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802248?h=3916e4&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url)
Do you all still have access to that onedrive folder I sent by PM. I have taken the 1891 and 1901 census and listed all the names at foundary road and black patch which makes it easier to see and search names that were there. Including the Loveridge and Calytons. If you look in the folder, its the excel files, your weclome to access
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Baptism 6 Feb 1887 Handsworth for Wrighton so of John, labourer, & Caroline Smith of Booth Street. Indexed as Wright on Ancestry. He may have been named for the place that John was born, his baptism that I gave earlier is in Ryton upon Dunsmore.
Not sure I've given you these baptism for siblings of John
Lea Marston 10 Feb 1842 Rosanna daughter of Ajoo, basket maker, & Santy Smith of Soubro? Northamptonshire (wonder if that's meant to be Sulgrave which has come up on other records for the family)
Hampton in Arden 22 May 1848 Cintimenta daughter of Heyshaw, tinker, and Centa Smith
Sutton Coldfield 3 June 1855 Cornelia daughter of Esau, basket maker, & Santa Smith of Coldfield.
Whitnash 6 Jan 1861 Thomas (born 18 Dec 1860) son of Asher, basket maker, & Senty Smith, gipsies.
Don't worry about Joseph & Matilda, they are a different family.
I also suspect that Cantenia is from another family. If you look at the dates of baptism - 2 Sept 1868 & 31 Jan 1869, there's rather less than 9 months between them. Also, bbart has found a birth reg for her with mother's maiden name of Causon, not Lovell.
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Thank you, Russ. Will have a look :)
It is great to see your tree coming together with sources and documents ;) The only bit that I would take out ;D...is Matilda being connected to your line. She was Joseph's sister, and I think it has been established that Joseph belongs to a different family group.
Osprey did a brilliant job finding and putting together a summary that was posted yesterday for the family of Joseph and Matilda with their parents. Different to your family group.
From the little we have seen, it is a very complicated family to follow. It is easy enough for some mistakes to have crept in over the years. Without being meticulous about finding sources, documents and confirming events the way you are doing, you can go off line quite easily sometimes. :-\
Not being able to find that 1881 census for them is sorely felt. Think they managed to miss it altogether!
Monica
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Thank you, its certainly a hard family to piece together.
Still do not seem any closer to finding how Adelaide Hall fits in ::) :-[
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wherever the family was in 1881, I suspect the enumerator couldn't find them.
::)
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I came across this Centenia, but it's quite a different birth year.
It looks like she died at or close to Birth
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23804942?h=0b6bac (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23804942?h=0b6bac)
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She could well be the child of extended family members.
Monica
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I don't have a My Heritage account but came across this in case you guys do
https://www.myheritage.com/names/sentenia_smith (https://www.myheritage.com/names/sentenia_smith)
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think I'd take that person's research with a large pinch of salt. It has Sarah giving birth when she's 53.
I'd given you the marriage earlier
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XXL4-WTL
Woodfine appears on some records as Woodbine.
Death reg
Woodbine Smith 102 march qtr 1867 Aston vol 6d pg 183 burial in Witton Cemetery Birmingham
1861 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M72V-G33
with this Smith family
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M72V-G38
Woodbine & Sarah had a son Frederick baptised 31 Dec 1816, born 28 Dec Greens Norton, Warwickshire but that is decidedly out from age given on census.
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A different search. I thought to check to see whether Caroline Smith/Lovell was still alive in 1911 following husband John's death in 1909. I think this might be her here www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7B6-2BL I am sure I have seen somewhere a Clayton ref within the extended family group.
I had fingers crossed that it might show how many children she had had (alive/deceased). Sadly, in this instance, that info is not included. I had hoped this might have helped to determine how many children had been born.
Added; osprey, from your research:
In 1871 there's an Archelaus Lovell with daughter Selina Clayton married to Frank/Francis
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27N-9R9R
So Caroline is with her sister and her family in 1911 it seems.
Monica
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death reg
Sentenia Smith 98 march qtr 1907 West Bromwich vol 6b pg 521 - born c. 1809
1871 census Centy born c. 1815
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDDN-QWG
1891 Centy born c. 1821
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WQ8X-S3Z
A rarity this, 1841 census entry
Centy 20 so born 1816-1821 because of rounding down
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQB1-HHK
and further on in same place - Rhoda, wife of Jeremiah, and mother of Esau.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQB1-HCM
So you can see how one person's age can vary. Age at death is the most unreliable as the person with the best knowledge wouldn't be able to help.
Yes, MonicaL, there were Claytons at Black Patch earlier.
;)
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I think this might be her here www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7B6-2BL I am sure I have seen somewhere a Clayton ref within the extended family group.
I had fingers crossed that it might show how many children she had had (alive/deceased). Sadly, in this instance, that info is not included.
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So Caroline is with her sister and her family in 1911 it seems.
Monica
The address on that is 40 Lime St.
I was JUST looking at Charity (daughter of John and Eliza) who married a Clayton, and they have the very same address in 1911. The house must be divided for multi families?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7B6-2BZ
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A different search. I thought to check to see whether Caroline Smith/Lovell was still alive in 1911 following husband John's death in 1909. I think this might be her here www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7B6-2BL I am sure I have seen somewhere a Clayton ref within the extended family group.
I had fingers crossed that it might show how many children she had had (alive/deceased). Sadly, in this instance, that info is not included. I had hoped this might have helped to determine how many children had been born.
Added; osprey, from your research:
In 1871 there's an Archelaus Lovell with daughter Selina Clayton married to Frank/Francis
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27N-9R9R
So Caroline is with her sister and her family in 1911 it seems.
Monica
On that list I put together today in the one drive folder, there is a Frank Clayton at Black Patch in 1901
Frank Clayton
Ancelina Clayton
Raboy Clayton
Phineas Clayton
Mildera Clayton
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There is also an Amos Clayton in 1891 at BlackPatch
Frances Clayton (Head)
Reby Clayton (Son)
Susannah Clayton (Daughter)
Prudence Clayton (Daughter)
Frances Clayton (Son)
Amos Clayton (Son)
Relder Clayton (Daughter)
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So the first listing you have there from 1901 would be Caroline's sister and family. Ancelina as you have there show more frequently as Ann Selina.
Monica
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John and Eliza Tree attached
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baptisms for siblings of Esau
John https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J75H-DDM
Samuel https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQB1-HCM
Nathaniel https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQH6-497 - this one may have died
Nathaniel https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJ68-QY5 noted as gipsies on register
possible baptism for Wrighton with Esau's family in 1841
20 March 1814 Norton, Northamptonshire Rito Smith son of Smith a gipsy, no other details
possible burial 3 July 1841 Stockton, Warwickshire Rito Smith 28 a gipsy
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So the first listing you have there from 1901 would be Caroline's sister and family. Ancelina as you have there show more frequently as Ann Selina.
Monica
Do you think Frank was Carolines father then?
The danger of Ancestry hints I had him as HERCULES Lovell
EDIT: sorry, You meant Ancelina is Caroline's sister, thank you
I think Carolines father is Archelaus Lovell
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baptisms for siblings of Esau
John https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J75H-DDM
Samuel https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQB1-HCM
Nathaniel https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQH6-497 - this one may have died
Nathaniel https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJ68-QY5 noted as gipsies on register
possible baptism for Wrighton with Esau's family in 1841
20 March 1814 Norton, Northamptonshire Rito Smith son of Smith a gipsy, no other details
possible burial 3 July 1841 Stockton, Warwickshire Rito Smith 28 a gipsy
Yeah, they look like they are right, it's mentioned that Easu mother was Rhoda Boswell
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Do you think Frank was Carolines father then?
The danger of Ancestry hints I had him as HERCULES Lovell
Frank Clayton looks to be Caroline's brother in law, married to her sister Ann Selina from what has been found.
Monica
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osprey posted a link to Caroline's christening entry here www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NVSM-1YL I think you will find lots of variants on her father's name on records for the family!
Monica
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This is the census pages for the 1881 census that was posted previously with Hercules Lovell stopping with Daughter
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23812428?h=628420&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23812428?h=628420&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url)
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Death date for Herculus Lovell shown here www.wikitree.com/wiki/Lovell-2190
Monica
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Some possible naughty doings of Hercules
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23813166?h=d51c54&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23813166?h=d51c54&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23813174?h=0a51ee&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23813174?h=0a51ee&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23813177?h=deeb5a&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23813177?h=deeb5a&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url)
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Death date for Herculus Lovell shown here www.wikitree.com/wiki/Lovell-2190
Monica
I think this is the index for it
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?r=71832637:9621&d=bmd_1617695873&scan=1 (https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?r=71832637:9621&d=bmd_1617695873&scan=1)
Although Age seems 20 years out
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I gave you Jeremiah's marriage back on page 7
20 Nov 1811 Newnham, Northants Jeremiah Smith & Rhode Smith.
It was not uncommon for travellers to fall foul of the law. The Vagrancy Act of 1824 made it an offence to sleep "in any deserted or unoccupied building, or in the open air, or under a tent, or in any cart or waggon, not having any visible means of subsistence".
The Hawkers and Pedlars Act of 1810 meant that licences were required.
https://www.travellerstimes.org.uk/features/destruction-way-life
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Thanks osprey, Loosing track of everything
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easily done when there's been so much information. ;D
How about this possible baptism for Hercules?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NBTR-VB9
the register is on Findmypast & I think it says Lovall, father noted as Traveller.
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I believe this is the list of Hurcules and Susanna's children
Caroline
Ann Selina
Unetta (Married George Amer)
Jubal
Georgianna (possibly died clsoe to birth)
Matthew (Partnered Maria Anslow)
Elizabeth (Partnered Phoenix Smith)
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Good summary for them. Impossible to find in the early censuses! What is new ::)
Monica
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I have a memory that the enumerators weren't instructed to search out travellers in their districts in the early census years.
I was trying to look for Matthew yesterday. There were some possible birth registrations with mmn Anslow but couldn't find a marriage.
Burial 14 Nov 1888 Wednesfield heath for Ann Selina Lovell aged 3 and Elijah Lovell aged 1 of Bushbury Road - both births had mmn Anslow.
Same parish, baptism 20 Nov 1889 Carnation daughter of Matthew & Maria Lovell.
Possible death reg Matthew Lovell 44 march qtr 1896 Walsall vol 6b pg 426
baptism of daughter Henrietta to George & Unetta Aymer
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XXGV-HBV
birth reg
Jubal Lovell march qtr 1853 Dudley vol 6c pg 118 mmn Smith
Burial 5 Aug 1857 Darlaston, Staffs Jubal Lovell age 4 of Fallings Heath
baptism Lache with Saltney, Cheshire 29 April 1855 Georgiana daughter of Harkless, hawker, and Susannah Lovell staying in Sandy Lane
burial Whittington, Staffs 21 Oct 1855 Georgiana Lovell 25 weeks
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Just putting this out there, not done research on it yet, but came across this 1911 census.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23833732?h=c7eef2 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23833732?h=c7eef2)
Adelaides marriage cert had her father as William Hall.
This census shows a 46 year old William Hall as brother to a Widowed Emma Smith. I. Wondering if Emma is part of the black patch Smiths.
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Just putting this out there, not done research on it yet, but came across this 1911 census.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23833732?h=c7eef2 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23833732?h=c7eef2)
Adelaides marriage cert had her father as William Hall.
This census shows a 46 year old William Hall as brother to a Widowed Emma Smith. I. Wondering if Emma is part of the black patch Smiths.
I mentioned him on Reply #80, pg 9. Emma was widow of Joseph Smith.
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Arrr yes, sorry Bbart, was quite a few William posts on that page.
I don't think we followed up on him, Did we rule him out?
Edit: So we found Joseph was from a different Smith family, meaning this William is also from a different Family :'( :'( >:(
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Next year the 1921 census will be released through FindMyPast. Hopefully it clears up some of the muddle. The original plan was a release date in January, but with the world in a mess, I suppose they could be behind schedule.
That said, you are working with a family that rarely registers anything, have no idea of how old they are, and change names. It does appear Amy is the real mother of your Adelaide, so at least you are ahead on that one! As for William Hall, you might just be better off keeping a list on the side of all the ones that would fit, and go the DNA route and hope you run into a Hall that is on your list. Otherwise, you are just guessing.
I did read an old newspaper article on the Black Patch where the church (St. James) was asked about the gypsies, and the response was that some of them married/baptised/buried there, BUT the gypsies had their own "chapel" in the camp. None of them went to the church for services, and it was thought that the very few of them that practiced their faith used their own chapel. Perhaps this little chapel of theirs was "baptising" and "marrying" people, but none of it ever registered, because it wouldn't have been accepted/legal?
Anyways, it's a tough family to follow, and far too easy to go down the rabbit hole of chasing the wrong people. Take a day off looking now and then; it's far too easy to get consumed and overwhelmed with so much info to sift through!
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Take a day off looking now and then; it's far too easy to get consumed and overwhelmed with so much info to sift through!
Your definately not wrong there, its taken over my life a little!
and go the DNA route and hope you run into a Hall that is on your list.
How does this DNA route work?
They cant know the DNA of those in the past can they?
Is there a service thats recommend in terms of DNA privacy etc
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How does this DNA route work?
They cant know the DNA of those in the past can they?
Is there a service thats recommend in terms of DNA privacy etc
I think the basic way it works is that if your dna matches other peoples dna that have made family trees, IF their tree is accurate, you should be related to someone in their tree. I have not gone that route, so that is only my assumption. There is a dedicated section for DNA here on Rootschat that could help you, if you get to that point:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/ancestral-family-tree-dna-testing/
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A very good evening to all,
I hope all is well
Its been a long long time (8 months!!) since I posted on this thread in regards to the long struggle I was having in finding out about my Great Grandmother, Adelaide Harrison
Those who posted and helped in this thread may remember, as we were all tearing our hair out!
We never did conclude in finding her past.
But now the 1921 census has been released, I can throw another spanner in the works!!
Now, Adelaide was born in 1900, and she married my Great Grandfather in 1919. On the marriage cert, she is down as Adelaide Hall, with a father call William Hall.
So I have been endlessly searching for Adelaide Hall.
Having now got a copy of the 1921 census as below, its seems she was down as "Broadhead", and her parents were Thomas and Amy! The broadhead has been scribbled out, as she married my Great Grandfather in 1919.
I am confident this is the right census page as many of the data points tick the box, such as Names, Sons Name, Places, and Jobs.
Also, I was told of a story that Adelaide used to mention a well known horse dealer called Billy Broadhead. (Not sure how Billy and Thomas match up though)
So everything lines up.
BUT, does anyone have any suggestions on why she would be down as Adelaide Hall on the marriage Cert, with a fathers name of William Hall.
Also, could this new information also render the 1901 census of 1yr old Adelaide Hall living in Handsworth, invalid?
(https://i.ibb.co/7kY02jL/Adelaide.png)
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if you look back at reply 20, MonicaL gave a link to the 1911 census for Adelaide Broadhead aged 11 with father Tom & mother Amy.
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Apologies, your right, just got a bit excited with having the 1921 information as further confirmation.
So all you work seem to be right and matching up.
The 1921 census confirms you were right that Amy was her mom, and that Amy married Thomas Broadhead.
I also have the Marriage cert for Thomas and Amy, and the information is as follows,
Marriage 1914
Thomas Broadhead, 33 Years Old, Widower
Living at 12 High Park Street
His father was also Thomas Broadhead
Amy Smith, 32 Years Old, Spinster
Living at 12 High Park Street
Her father is John Smith (deceased)
So I think this pretty much confirms your findings that Amys parents are John Smith and Caroline Smith (nee Lovell)
As you also found, Adelaide was staying with her Grandparents in 1901 at Blackpatch. Amy is also there and as single. Adelaide is down as Adelaide Hall.
I am none the closer, and have a feeling I never will be, in finding William Hall, who is down as her father on the marriage cert.
Do you think there are any other ways of finding and connecting this William Hall, or do you think its one that is lost forever?
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Got to throw a spanner in the works though, in the 1939 census, Amy has a birth date of 4th June 1881, but the Baptism record of her with parents John and Caroline is 1880!