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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: isiwig on Tuesday 06 April 21 14:25 BST (UK)
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Hugh and Margaret Henry and children are listed on 1861 census but cannot find any of them in 1871 and only a couple on subsequent census.
Hugh (1827) & Margaret (?) both born and married in Ireland
Children - John DOB 1850 born Ireland
- Mary Jane DOB 1852 born Ireland
- Catherine DOB 1854 born Ireland
- Margaret - born Ireland 1856 died Liverpool 1857
- Margaret DOB 1858 born Liverpool
- Eliza Ann DOB 1860 born Liverpool
- Hugh DOB 1863 born Liverpool
Any help much appreciated. Thanks.
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Death
HENRY, HUGH age 43
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 242
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Births
HENRY, MARGARET
Mother's maiden surname: BARCLAY
GRO Reference: 1858 S Quarter in WEST DERBY & TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 228
HENRY, ELIZA ANN
Mother's maiden surname: BARTLEY
GRO Reference: 1860 S Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 248
HENRY, HUGH
Mother's maiden surname: BARCLAY
GRO Reference: 1863 M Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 298
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
Debra :)
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Not an answer to what happened to them all, but Hugh and Margaret's civil marriage certificate can be viewed at the foot of this page.
Margaret (and her father) shown as Bartley
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1849/09375/5395690.pdf
This is the free site Irish Genealogy.
ADDED; If you haven't used this site before - you will find you will be asked for your name, tick a box and solve a catchpa - then you will be taken to the link showing the marriage.
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Hugh (1827) & Margaret (?) both born and married in Ireland
Hugh is aged 41 in 1861 which gives a birth year of c1820. Margaret is 36, so born c1825.
Debra :)
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Not an answer to what happened to them all, but Hugh and Margaret's civil marriage certificate can be viewed at the foot of this page.
Margaret (and her father) shown as Bartley
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1849/09375/5395690.pdf
This is the free site Irish Genealogy.
Coincidently the registrar's surname was also Henry.
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I just can’t find the family in 1861 to check an address.
There is, however, a burial - 10 May 1869, Walton Park Cemetery
Margaret Henry 42 yrs of 23 Sawney ... ???
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Found them now - looking for the wrong year of birth and transcribed as ‘Honey’ on Anc.
1861 2697/59/54
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Margaret Henry 42 yrs of 23 Sawney ... ???
I think it's Sawney Pope Street.
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Thank you to all who were good enough to take time to reply to my query regarding my missing Henry family in 1871.
Hugh Henry's DOB is definitely 1827. The children's mothers name is Bartley and I already have the info on their baptisms. I will check out the free Irish site as suggested and will follow up on the Walton Park Cemetery record.
I am beginning to wonder whether they all upped and went back to Ireland before the children returned to Liverpool where they married and settled with their own children. Thanks again all. Very grateful. Issy.
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Where do you have Hugh with a birth year of 1827 please?
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Hi, Hugh's DOB was from Warrenpoint Parish records
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Thanks :)
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You're welcome :)
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There are no known surviving records before 1826.
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0441
I would have thought Hugh's baptism was this one on 20 May 1827.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633257#page/8/mode/1up
Debra :)
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Hi Debra, Thank you - yes this is the record I have for Hugh. My problem is finding him after the 1861 census. On the marriage cert. of his son John in 1877 he was listed as his father but then according to the marriage certificate of his daughter Eliza in June 1887 he was deceased. Thanks again. Issy
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GRO Death Index shows a Death Registration of a Hugh Henry aged 57 West Derby Dec 1871 Vol 8b page 215
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What was address of Son upon Marriage in 1877 ?
Presume Hugh remarried if Wife died 1868 leaving him with young children.
Or he went back to Ireland for the Grandparents to bring up the Children while he went to work.
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Thank you Alamo for your interest in my brick wall. The address given on the marriage certificate for Hugh’s son John is Fletcher Street, Toxteth Park. The death registration you mentioned for Hugh doesn’t tie in with his DOB unfortunately and I have no record of his wife’s death in 1868.
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Rule number One in Family Research
Don't use 21st Accuracy eyes when researching and expect an exact match. Be Flexible.
Remember the Past is Not a Record of what happened.
It is a Record of What people "Said" happened, which may not the Truth
In my experience I have found those Registering a Relatives Death rarely knew someone's age or Date of Birth so the Age recorded was rarely the Truth, so don't rule anything out till you see the actual Death Certificate.
I spent nearly £100 trying to get my Great Grandfather's Death Certificate for Henry Chapman only to get the right one for a John Henry Crawford Chapman registered by his Daughter showing not only a name I'd discounted but also an Age.
I have 4 Relatives who's Birth Certificates clearly show their Actual Date of Birth
Months after they were Baptised in the Local Church !
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Thanks
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Rule number One in Family Research
Don't use 21st Accuracy eyes when researching and expect an exact match. Be Flexible.
Remember the Past is Not a Record of what happened.
It is a Record of What people "Said" happened, which may not the Truth
In my experience I have found those Registering a Relatives Death rarely knew someone's age or Date of Birth so the Age recorded was rarely the Truth, so don't rule anything out till you see the actual Death Certificate.
Especially if the person concerned was born before birth registrations began and even more so if the person was born in Ireland. ;D Ages were flexible. Most people seldom needed to provide age information. My Irish granddad, born 2nd half of 19thC. "adjusted" his age several times, according to circumstances. Ditto his brother and sisters. My Irish grandma always gave the correct year of birth but had different dates of birth in baptism register and on birth certificate. Ages on death certificates of 2 Irish relatives were more than a decade out; informant for one of them was her son.
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Pre 1911 you were never going to be entitled to a State Pension, so did it matter what Age you were.
The probably couldn't afford Birthday Cards and Birthday Presents and therefore probably never celebrated actual Birthdays and many couldn't Count anyway.
The first Census Enumerators in 1841 were told to Round ages Down to make the Census more acceptable.
So on the 1851 Census so ages are 15 years greater not 10
And that's assuming even that wasn't a Guess.
Being illiterate, people had no idea what the Enumerator recorded on the Census
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Was Hugh Henry a Blacksmith married to Mary Langan from Scotland?
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Pre 1911 you were never going to be entitled to a State Pension, so did it matter what Age you were.
The probably couldn't afford Birthday Cards and Birthday Presents and therefore probably never celebrated actual Birthdays and many couldn't Count anyway.
Compulsory elementary education for children began late 19thC. in England and later still in Ireland. There was no lower age limit for children to start work until mid-19thC. in England.
My Irish family mentioned "bleeding the cow" on a feast-day to add flavour to oatmeal. Their grandparents (my great-grandparents) were alive during An Gorta Mor, the Great Famine. There were other famines, before & after.
When the state pension was introduced in Ireland, some people who had no idea about their age were asked if they remembered "The Night of the Big Wind". That event was used to estimate when a person may have been born.
A cousin of mine didn't know her dad's birthday. He was born in Ireland and died when she was a teenager. As she said, birthdays weren't important.
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Thank you Maiden Stone & Alamo for your advice which is very interesting and I will consider when faced with a problem. In reply to Alamo, Hugh Henry was a painter and was born in Ireland as was his wife Margaret.
Thanks again to all who replied.
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Found this Ford Cemetery Burial 26 October - December Quarter 1871 suggests my find of that Quarter Death
is a good bet.
Gore Street is Liverpool 8 running from Stanhope Street
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhTJqywB/engl56170-282-for-1-2-m-00417.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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1869 Voters list for Ashwell Street Courts which is the Upper Parliament Street side of Stanhope Street Liverpool 8
(https://i.postimg.cc/c1T29RcG/42515-1831109333-0750-00977.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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There was a Mary Jane Henry as Godmother to Hugh in 1863.
This could be her in 1871 3783/118/18 although her birth is shown as Liverpool.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KD85-M4M
I presume you have Mary Jane’s marriages.
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Thanks for your posts
I have the baptismal record for Hugh Henry with Mary Jane as Godmother but she would only have been eleven years of age at the time.
Were children of that age allowed to be god parents?
Yes, it looks like this could be a possibility for her in 1871, in the Penitentiary for Fallen Women in Liverpool.
Mary Jane’s first husband died at sea after only seven years of marriage and she was left with four young children. She married again a few years later but had no further children.
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The Voters list for 1869 and the death record you found both within the same area of Liverpool together with the burial record in Ford Cemetery are looking good and as you say worth a punt on getting the death certificate.
What were the criteria for voting in 1869? Did you have to be a house owner to be eligible to vote or did all males get a vote? Where could I view the list for 1871 as he could be on that Voters list?
Thank you for your information.
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Thanks for your posts
I have the baptismal record for Hugh Henry with Mary Jane as Godmother but she would only have been eleven years of age at the time.
Were children of that age allowed to be god parents?
Yes, it looks like this could be a possibility for her in 1871, in the Penitentiary for Fallen Women in Liverpool.
Mary Jane’s first husband died at sea after only seven years of marriage and she was left with four young children. She married again a few years later but had no further children.
"Were children of that age allowed to be god parents?"
I had a similar query with my great uncles, baptitized at the RC Southwark Cathedral when the Godfather half brother is aged only 9 years. So apparently not unusual.
I am following your post closely as my great grandmother is also from another Liverpool HENRY family who had returned from a decade in New York.
MARY HENRY
1838–1908
Birth ABT 1838 • Sligo, Ireland
Death 2 FEB 1908 • 25 Seymour St, Abercromby, LIVERPOOL, Lancashire, England
The family seemed to use their RC church of St Nicholas (RC) LIVERPOOL and Oratory of St Philip Neri, Lancashire, England
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Thank you Mark. It's good to know that somebody else has had the same experience with godparents being children.
My Henry family came from the Warrenpoint area of Ireland.
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I have the baptismal record for Hugh Henry with Mary Jane as Godmother but she would only have been eleven years of age at the time.
Were children of that age allowed to be god parents?
Yes, it looks like this could be a possibility for her in 1871, in the Penitentiary for Fallen Women in Liverpool.
"Were children of that age allowed to be god parents?"
I had a similar query with my great uncles, baptitized at the RC Southwark Cathedral when the Godfather half brother is aged only 9 years. So apparently not unusual.
I am following your post closely as my great grandmother is also from another Liverpool HENRY family who had returned from a decade in New York.
I received my first invitation to be a godmother when I was 10. I declined the honour. I finally became a godmother aged 15. Godfather at my baptism was 13; his credentials were that he was available on the day. I think minimum age now is supposed to be 16.
Criteria for sponsors: they were practising Catholics; they understood the significance of the ceremony; they were likely to be around long enough to support the parents in the religious upbringing of the child.
Does Mary Jane's age on 1871 census fit with records you've seen for your Mary Jane?
I have a Henry connection from Ireland. They went to U.S., came back and settled in England. Another Henry family in the town of my birth did the same thing 30 years later.
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Right to Vote answer 1871 = over 21
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representation_of_the_People_Act_1918
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What were the criteria for voting in 1869? Did you have to be a house owner to be eligible to vote or did all males get a vote?
Representation of the People Act 1867 aka Reform Act 1867 or Second Reform Act. This enfranchised many working-class males who were heads of households. There was still a property value or minimum rent qualification. The Act took effect in stages over 2 years and became fully enacted 1st January 1869.
After the Representation Act 1884 (Third Reform Act) 60% of male householders could vote.
It wasn't until 1918 that all men 21 and over could vote (+ 19 & 20 year-olds who had served abroad during WW1).
An exception was the borough of Preston in Lancashire where all men over 21 who had been resident for the previous 12 months were enfranchised in 17th century, unless they were paupers or convicted felons. Several of my ancestors lived in Preston from 1820's to end of the century and were on registers from 1830's.
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Thank you to all who replied and for your information/tips.