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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Mayo => Topic started by: groat on Tuesday 30 March 21 14:49 BST (UK)
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Hello
I'm trying to find the background of my GGfather Patrick McDonald born 1840. His father was Walter, a "farm laborer". Patrick became a soldier in the British Army enlisting at York 4th December 1862. See detail attached. I have more details of his subsequent life but I've come to a full stop here. He married in England in 1870 Bridget Brangan age 26 born in either Sligo or Tipperary, daughter of John Brangan, shoemaker and his wife Charlotte. My family oral history thinks that an ancestor of either Bridget or Patrick fought at Waterloo (possible name Walter McMahon).
Can anyone help?
I can provide more details if required but they don't for the moment seem relevant.
Thanks in advance for any help.
Ian McDonald
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Does it say "Angles Castle Barr" for Patrick's birthplace? Possibly the parish of Aglish, Castlebar. Some R.C. registers date from before his birth.
Have you found Patrick or Walter on an English census?
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Hello
Thanks for responding so quickly.
Yes it looks like Angles but I thought that was too far removed from Aglish to be a typo or a mishearing. That's why I posted the copy to see if anyone had any other ideas about Castlebar parishes.
I have no details for Walter apart from the fact that his name is given as the father on Patrick and Bridget's marriage certificate in 1870.
I have a fairly full census history for Patrick (and Bridget) up to his death in Chelsea Hospital in 1923 or 4.
with thanks
Ian
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Catholic registers at National Library of Ireland for Castlebar parish, Archdiocese of Tuam, County Mayo. Variant names Aglish, Ballyhean and Breaghny
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1039
Baptisms from 1838 and marriages from 1824.
There is a partial transcription of baptism registers in chronological order on deesgenes genealogy site on Rootsweb freepages. Earliest baptism is 1822 then a gap until 1840.
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This looks as though it could be a brother to Patrick given what you say.
It is easily found in Ancestry indexes and link to baptism but trying to find it in the Catholic NLI registers was difficult!
Edward McDonnell Baptised 9th October 1845
Parents Walter McDonnell and Sarah McMahon
Sponsors - Pat and Bridget McDonnell
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631982#page/104/mode/1up
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Yes it looks like Angles but I thought that was too far removed from Aglish to be a typo or a mishearing. That's why I posted the copy to see if anyone had any other ideas about Castlebar parishes.
Unless the letter we think is "n" is "u".
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There is also a baptism:
John McDonnell 1st August 1850 - parents Walter and Sarah McMahon
Sponsors - McDonnell and Margaret Gibbons
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Thanks for that - looks very interesting. What might be the discrepancy between McDonald and McDonnell (apart from the obvious, which I've put up with all my life but perhaps would not expect to see in a baptism register)? The McMahon connection is tempting, any way of tracing that back or connecting it to Waterloo. I notice there is a statue of a Waterloo veteran in the grounds of Christchurch, Castlebar.
Ian
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Ancestry and I think FindMyPast - have Waterloo medal rolls. There are several Mc!ahons to be seen on Anc. but they do not show birthplaces.
You may be able to find some records elsewhere - just try a search and see what comes up.
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Thanks for that, With your help I've now found the list of McMahons at Waterloo on Ancestry and Find My Past but there's no Walter. As I've said, Walter McMahon is the name passed down through family oral history so maybe the first name was different. Is there any way of identifying the father of the Sarah McMahon (above) who married Walter McDonnell?
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You would need to find a baptism for her and if she was from Castlebar, the records are not available.
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1039
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It also looks as though she was born too early to appear in those registers. It would seem she must have been born pre-1822. (Patrick being born 1840).
Looks like the end of the road for that line of research. At least you've helped me go back one further generation (always assuming there's an explanation for the McDonald/McDonnell discrepancy - The register entry for Edward's baptism is not that clear. Walter's surname seems to have only one "n" and the last two letters are not very clear - might be McDonald? Similarly the surname of the sponsors on the next line.)
Thanks again for your help.
Ian
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Do you have this family? I just came across them and not sure if they have been mentioned.
1861 3664 / 17/ 4
Walter Mc Donald 49 yrs
Sarah Mc Donald 40 yrs
Patrick Mc Donald 20 yrs
James Mc Donald 16 yrs
Edward Mc Donald 14 yrs
John Mc Donald 11 yrs
All born in Ireland and living in North Yorkshire.
I had looked previously but often the space (or not) between Mc and D makes all the difference. :)
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Joseph gives Castlebar as his birthplace in 1891
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7T36-66Z
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Did Patrick marry Mary Harriet Dicker.
In 1881 and 1891 4028/26, Sarah has a grandaughter with her.
Florence Mary MacDonald b 1878.
Birth index shows mother as Dicker.
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At least you've helped me go back one further generation (always assuming there's an explanation for the McDonald/McDonnell discrepancy - The register entry for Edward's baptism is not that clear. Walter's surname seems to have only one "n" and the last two letters are not very clear - might be McDonald? Similarly the surname of the sponsors on the next line.)
Spelling of surnames wasn't standardised until elementary education and official written records became common later in the century. Even then there was flexibility. Members of some families didn't agree on a spelling of their surname - there are examples on 1901 or 1911 census and in BMD registrations.
When thinking about spellings of surnames and place-names one has to take into account:
Many people in Ireland in the first half of 19th century weren't able to read and write and so it was up to the scribe to decide how to spell a word - spelling of a surname in a parish register might change when there was a new clergyman or parish clerk, or if the person moved to a new parish or area;
Accents/dialects;
The first language of some people was Irish, they may have been known to friends & neighbours by the Irish form of their names but by the English version in written records;
There were variations in names and spellings of places. Ireland was the first country in the world to be surveyed and mapped in detail. The work was done by the Royal Engineers regiment of the British Army, assisted by local people (including an ancestor of President Biden in Mayo).
Irish Ancestors Wizard suggests "at least" 25 variants for the surname McDonald. Gaelic versions include MacDomnaill . Some variants don't have Mac. Prefixes Mac and O' might be omitted or added according to circumstances. (Your McMahon may have been Mahon in some records.)
https://www.johngrenham.com/wizard/
If you do a search on Wizard for one of your McDonalds with father Walter, including birthplace Castlebar, you'll be led to a list of sources for the place + list of adjacent parishes.
I have a "Mc" surname in my tree. Mr "Mc", born c.1818 was literate and was consistent with the spelling of his name - I've seen his signature several times. English-born Mrs "Mc" wasn't literate. They lived in England. There were spelling variations in their children's birth registrations and on a census return after the husband's death. When their children were adults they always used the same spelling as their father and it has passed down the generations.
The other side of my family includes Loftus from Castlebar. A simple name but a variant is Loftis. My dad's birth on English GRO births index has been incorrectly transcribed from a printed index and they refused to change it. I got another entry corrected - Mulvee/Mulvie/Mulvey. Those were 20th century births, the 19thC ones had those variants + more.
My Castlebar family also had a military connection.
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Joseph gives Castlebar as his birthplace in 1891
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7T36-66Z
Might Joseph have been John on 1861 census? He had a son John Joseph age 2 on 1891 census (his 3rd son?). His elder sons were George Edward and Walter, possibly significant names.
Walter was hardly a common Irish name.
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My GGFather was:
Patrick McDonald
Born Castlebar 1840
Died Chelsea Hospital 1923
Married Bridget Brangan in Brighton, May 1870. Bridget was born (according to the document you're reading) in Clare, Sligo or Tipperary. Father John Brangan, Shoemaker, born Ireland around 1819. The Brangan family were living in Brighton by 1861.
Children of Patrick and Bridget:
George 1872-1948 b Colchester
Marie 1873-1969 b Canterbury
John 1878-1950 b India
James 1882-1970 Brighton
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Ireland was the first country in the world to be surveyed and mapped in detail. The work was done by the Royal Engineers regiment of the British Army, assisted by local people (including an ancestor of President Biden in Mayo).
Have a look at this article:
Enter Edward Blewitt. He had already been involved in two of the largest mapping endeavours of the 19th century – the Ordnance Survey in the 1830s and Griffiths Valuation in the 1840s - and was sometime employed by the parish vestry to value and plot land for the payment of tithes.
https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2020/1020/1172761-joe-biden-ancestor-edward-blewitt-mayo-ireland-great-famine/
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My GGFather was:
Patrick McDonald
Born Castlebar 1860
Died Chelsea Hospital 1923
Married Bridget Brangan in Brighton, May 1870.
You said previously that Patrick was born around 1840.
You can correct the year by clicking "Modify" above the post.
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Whoops! Thanks
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Joseph gives Castlebar as his birthplace in 1891
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7T36-66Z
Might Joseph have been John on 1861 census? He had a son John Joseph age 2 on 1891 census (his 3rd son?). His elder sons were George Edward and Walter, possibly significant names.
Walter was hardly a common Irish name.
Births of children in this family were all registered in Bedale district with mother's maiden surname Tweedy. All children were registered with 2 forenames. Walter was James Walter McDonald GRO ref. 1886 J quarter.
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Kiltaglassan reply #18. I did a post on Edward Blewitt either after the presidential election November or inauguration January. As a family historian with Mayo ancestry, I'm grateful to Edward Blewitt for his work.
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Births of children in this family were all registered in Bedale district with mother's maiden surname Tweedy. All children were registered with 2 forenames. Walter was James Walter McDonald GRO ref. 1886 J quarter.
Parents' marriage 1880 Kirkby Fleetham, Yorkshire, North Riding. Registration district Bedale, Yorkshire. Joseph McDonald & Mary Jane Tweedy.
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Joseph gives Castlebar as his birthplace in 1891
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7T36-66Z
Might Joseph have been John on 1861 census?
A Joseph McDonnell was baptised in Castlebar 1846. (FindMyPast free search)
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Is that not the family then in 1861?
Patrick enlisted in York.
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Kiltaglassan reply #18. I did a post on Edward Blewitt either after the presidential election November or inauguration January. As a family historian with Mayo ancestry, I'm grateful to Edward Blewitt for his work.
Maiden Stone, is this the one you are referring to? Reply #16
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=844685.msg7121209#msg7121209
By the way, visited Mayo many times and stayed in lovely hotels.
The coastal scenery is breath-taking.
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Kiltaglassan reply #18. I did a post on Edward Blewitt either after the presidential election November or inauguration January. As a family historian with Mayo ancestry, I'm grateful to Edward Blewitt for his work.
Maiden Stone, is this the one you are referring to? Reply #16
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=844685.msg7121209#msg7121209
That post was sometime after the one I was thinking about which was specifically about Edward Blewitt. I think the first thread was closed because it became political.
Some of the content in the post you linked is relevant to spelling variants. I referenced the report on name variants by the Registrar General of Ireland in 1901.
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By the way, visited Mayo many times and stayed in lovely hotels.
The coastal scenery is breath-taking..
It certainly is KG. :) I have Blewitts somewhere in a distant DNA connection.
I am wondering if I got that birth wrong. The family certainly looks right in 1861.
1881
Aiskew, Yorks
Sarah MacDonald widow Lodging House Keeper b Ireland
Flora -do- Granddr 5 yrs b Yorks, Bradford
1891
Scruton, Yorks
Sarah MacDonald 67 yrs b Ireland
Florance Mary -do- granddaur 13 yrs b London
I had seen an earlier marriage which I thought might fit with a birth I had seen but as you can see the details differ so not sure where/when Florence was born.
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Is that not the family then in 1861?
Patrick enlisted in York.
They seem likely candidates.
Their location Kirkby Fleetham was the same place where Joseph married Mary Jane Tweedy in 1880.
1881 census Kirkby Fleetham, Yorkshire, Registration district Bedale
Joseph McDonald head 38 born Ireland
Mary Jane McDonald wife 18
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27B-GJJQ
This looks like Joseph with his parents on 1871 census.
Fencote, Yorkshire
Great Kirkby Fleetham. Sub-district Bedale.
Walter Macdonald head 58 born Ireland, bricklayer's labourer
Sarah MacDonald wife 51 born Ireland
Joseph Macdonald son 28 born Ireland agricultural labourer
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBZ8-299
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This certainly looks a distinct possibility. I'm afraid it had never previously occurred to me that Patrick hadn't come straight from his family in Ireland to enlist in the British army - stupid of me I know, but none of my family records or memories have suggested otherwise. I'm just surprised that none of my family ever mentioned that Patrick had relatives living in England, and that my grandfather's generation (Patrick's children) left no record of having cousins in Yorkshire. I'll go back to family papers with that in mind and see if I can find anything. Thank you everybody for all your help.
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Just wondering who Florence belongs to. I saw that birth with mmn Dicker and then a possible marriage in 1865 but that is unlikely now, I think.
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Just wondering who Florence belongs to. I saw that birth with mmn Dicker and then a possible marriage in 1865 but that is unlikely now, I think.
I think Grandma Sarah was a different woman to the wife of Walter on 1861 census in which case Florence is a red herring. That's assuming I'm correct the Walter & Sarah with sons Patrick, Edward & John on 1861 census was the same Walter & Sarah couple with son Joseph on 1871 census. 20thC population of the village of Kirkby Fleetham is around 500.
Amendment. Ignore my comment that Sarah, grandma of Florence was a different woman to Walter's wife. I had no evidence for that statement. See later posts for Walter's death + possible deaths of sons.
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This certainly looks a distinct possibility. I'm afraid it had never previously occurred to me that Patrick hadn't come straight from his family in Ireland to enlist in the British army - stupid of me I know, but none of my family records or memories have suggested otherwise. I'm just surprised that none of my family ever mentioned that Patrick had relatives living in England, and that my grandfather's generation (Patrick's children) left no record of having cousins in Yorkshire. I'll go back to family papers with that in mind and see if I can find anything. Thank you everybody for all your help.
If Patrick had been in Ireland when he decided to join the army he would have enlisted there.
Emigration continued to be high after the worst of the famine years. There was construction work for Irish labourers in England as well as work on farms and in factories.
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Death registration of Walter McDonald in Bedale district 1878.
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I think Grandma Sarah was a different woman to the wife of Walter on 1861 census in which case Florence is a red herring. That's assuming I'm correct the Walter & Sarah with sons Patrick, Edward & John on 1861 census was the same Walter & Sarah couple with son Joseph on 1871 census. 20thC population of the village of Kirkby Fleetham is around 500.
Do you think so? That’s disappointing.
Deaths
Edward 30 yrs 1878
Walter 70 yrs 1878
James 43 yrs 1891
Sarah 84 yrs 1907
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Emigration continued to be high after the worst of the famine years. There was construction work for Irish labourers in England as well as work on farms and in factories.
The MacDonald family in Kirkby Fleetham may have moved there for railway construction work.
Bedale -Leyburn railway line
Wensleydale Railway to Bedale, Leyburn and Hawes
North Eastern Railway
There were many railway companies formed to construct lines and stations. Some amalgamated later.
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I think Grandma Sarah was a different woman to the wife of Walter on 1861 census in which case Florence is a red herring. That's assuming I'm correct the Walter & Sarah with sons Patrick, Edward & John on 1861 census was the same Walter & Sarah couple with son Joseph on 1871 census. 20thC population of the village of Kirkby Fleetham is around 500.
Do you think so? That’s disappointing.
Deaths
Edward 30 yrs 1878
Walter 70 yrs 1878
James 43 yrs 1891
Sarah 84 yrs 1907
You may be right that she was the same Sarah. She was a widow by 1881. I was mixing up censuses in my reply#35.
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The MacDonald family in Kirkby Fleetham may have moved there for railway construction work.
Bedale -Leyburn railway line
Wensleydale Railway to Bedale, Leyburn and Hawes
North Eastern Railway
There were many railway companies formed to construct lines and stations. Some amalgamated later.
In 1861, Walter was a Bricksetter’s Labourer.
Sarah and the older boys were employed in agriculture.
There is also Joseph, transcribed as ‘Mackroweld’ 17 yrs employed as a Ploughboy elsewhere in the district.
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In 1861, Walter was a Bricksetter’s Labourer.
Sarah and the older boys were employed in agriculture.
There is also Joseph, transcribed as ‘Mackroweld’ 17 yrs employed as a Ploughboy elsewhere in the district.
Joseph was still an ag lab in 1871. (Reply #29) He was a stone mason later. There was increased mechanisation of farming in late 19thC.
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Deaths
Edward 30 yrs 1878
Walter 70 yrs 1878
Death registrations of Walter and Edward are on the same page. Perhaps they died around the same time.
1878 December quarter Bedale district volume 09D page 419.
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Trying to make sense of all your responses has led me to wonder whether my grandfather John McDonald 1878-1950 and my grandmother Flora Marie Dorette Sophie McDonald 1876-1915 were first cousins, both grandchildren of Walter McDonald and Sarah McMahon
Flora Marie Dorette Sophie McDonald was my grandmother. She died on February 12th 1915 aged 37.
She was the wife of John McDonald born 1878 in Matra, India. They were married 6th September 1905 in Kensington. Her address was given as St John’s Wood Park and her parents listed as Mr John and Mrs McDonald of Scarborough. In the BMD index she appears as Mary Dorette S F McDonald.
Parents of Flora Marie Dorette Sophie McDonald
According to her Birth Certificate (September 1876) she was born Dorette Maria Sophia MacDonald on 8th September 1876 in Paddington Workhouse. Her father is listed as John MacDonald (although the cert is not signed by him), occupation Butler.
Her mother is listed as Lucy Leonora MacDonald formerly Feldmann and signs herself LL MacDonald
According to her Marriage Certificate (September 1905) her father is John McDonald (although signed by him John Macdonald), occupation Butler. In the Wedding report (apparently intended for a local newspaper) the Bride’s parents are listed as John and Mrs McDonald of Scarborough.
In 1901 there is a John Macdonald, aged 45, b. Bedale, Yorkshire, widower, living at 19 Seymour Mews, London (St. Marylebone district), occupation Domestic Butler.
In 1891 there is a John Macdonald, aged 34, b. Catterick, Yorkshire, said to be single, living at Cadwell Hall, Lincolnshire, occupation Butler.
Apart from the Lucy Leonora MacDonald appearing on the BC, I can find no references identifiable as the Lucy Feldmann/Macdonald/MacDonald/McDonald who was my great-grandmother. My suspicion is that Lucy Feldmann and John McDonald were not married and that Lucy had another family. This could explain why Flora/Florence was living with her McDonald/Macdonald grandmother in 1881/91 (if indeed this is "my" Flora!).
Reading this thread which has brought me from Castlebar to North Yorkshire, there seems to be a possibility that my grandfather's father Patrick McDonald and my grandmother's father John McDonald/Macdonald were both sons of Walter McDonald and Sarah McMahon, although I have never heard that suggestion in my family’s oral history.
"1881
Aiskew, Yorks
Sarah MacDonald widow Lodging House Keeper b Ireland
Flora -do- Granddr 5 yrs b Yorks, Bradford
1891
Scruton, Yorks
Sarah MacDonald 67 yrs b Ireland
Florance Mary -do- granddaur 13 yrs b London
I had seen an earlier marriage which I thought might fit with a birth I had seen but as you can see the details differ so not sure where/when Florence was born."
Could these could be Sarah McMahon and my grandmother? Or am I just jumping to unjustified conclusions?
Thanks again for all your help.
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That sounds very plausible. Much, if not all of it fits.
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In 1871 There is a Lucy Feldmann, transcribed as Felman, 20 yrs b Germany and living as a housemaid in Leeds with a family called Dolby.
There is a death for Lucy Felchman, 28 yrs in 1878 in St Olave, Southwark.
I wonder if these are connected?
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1871 4560/53/15
With Lucy in 1871, there is a Sophia Shutter, 45 yrs, housekeeper and William Shutter, 17 yrs her son, they are both born Germany too. It might be a coincidence re the name Sophia but just to note.
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My suspicion is that she was Lucy Feldmann, nee Goulds. Born in Kent somewhere around 1832-5, died January 1905 (8 months before my grandparents' wedding, which could be one reason why she didn't attend). In 1891 she appears as Lucy L Feldmann (Leonora?) living with her grandchildren. The problem is her age. Her birth appears variously as 1831, 1832 and 1835. Her marriage certificate in 1850 gives her age as 21 and the 1901 census as 70. That would make her between 41 and 47 when my grandmother was born - not impossible, but...
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I prefer my version :D
The birth certificate would usually show the previous surname as well, unless she was keeping it a secret from John.
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I'm not sure what you mean. Here's a copy of the BC. The inclusion of the middle name "Leonora" appears significant to me and I can only find the 1891 entry where the "L" initial appears. I'm also curious as to why Lucy went to a workhouse to give birth.
I'm not saying I'm certain - far from it. That's why I come here to seek help.
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Please go with your own instincts. These are just my thoughts.
I meant that when the mother has been married twice, it would read late Feldman, formerly Coates. I think that’s the wording. However, I suppose it depends on how much information is divulged.
Then, I wonder why Flora isn’t living with Lucy - although the census is only one night, I suppose.
Thirdly, I thought that the death of a young Lucy might fit in with being raised by grandmother.
Added
I also thought about the age difference etc but you have considered that.
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I'm also curious as to why Lucy went to a workhouse to give birth.
Workhouses had infirmaries which may have been the only free hospitals in some districts.
Some workhouse admissions registers survive. See Peter Higginbottom's workhouse website for information about workhouses and links.
Have you found Lucy and John together on a census? Were there other children of the marriage?
Was the 1905 wedding in a Catholic church? If the couple were related they would have needed a dispensation; degree of consanguinity or affinity was often noted in marriage register margin.
2 of my English Catholic lines from a small town and a rural area were in the habit of marrying relatives with the same surname but they weren't 1st cousins. They included 3 men who shared forenames & surnames with their fathers-in-law and their brothers-in-law.
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Here is another bit of information/coincidence perhaps.
I was looking at Flora’s birth certificate (no Flora?). Looking for the name Dorette in 1871/1881, there is a high incidence in German born individuals.
There is this interesting entry
1881 4461/120/1
Dorette C Fettman (transcribed but could be Feltman) b Germany
She is a servant in a German household in Manningham, Bradford.
The child Flora/Florence with grandmother Sarah, has Bradford as birthplace on one census and London on the other.
It could all be coincidence though.
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All very interesting, but perhaps still leaving me in a bit of a haze. I'm not keen on going with my instincts - I prefer evidence if I can find it. ???
The wedding was in a Catholic church - copy MC attached in case there's more to be gleaned from it.
No I haven't found John and Lucy together or any evidence that they ever married. As far as I know they had no other children together.
I had also wondered about the name Dorette (which is the first name on the BC, which as you observe did not include Flora, the name by which she appeared to be know to the family - her death is recorded as Flora M.D.S. McDonald - I have the family's memorial card). On her Wedding Report she appears as "Miss Flora McDonald, daughter of Mr John and Mrs McDonald, Scarborough". Neither of the bride's parents are listed as guests although presents include a gift from "bride's father". I also have a photograph of her inscribed "Flora Marie Dorette Sophie Macdonald aged 18yrs about 1896"
My Ancestry DNA results (which I realise are only a rough guide) give a breakdown of 54% North East Scotland and 36% Ireland, which is hard - though not impossible - to tie in with any recent German connection. The DNA results are doubly perplexing as I've traced my maternal grandfather's line (in theory accounting for 24% of my DNA) reasonably convincingly back to the mid-1700s confined to Suffolk and Essex.
Sorry if I'm rambling a bit but this thread seems to have brought me quite a long way and , as ever, I'd like to get a bit further.
Thank you both.
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It is difficult now that this other possibility of kinship has been thrown into the mix.
The church record is the one where consanguinity would be noted as Maiden Stone says. You could try contacting the church - Our Lady of Victories, Kensington to see if they still hold the records.
As you say, you need more evidence and my findings could be just absolute coincidence.
I just thought I would mention them. :-\
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The wedding was in a Catholic church - copy MC attached in case there's more to be gleaned from
it.
/quote]
Who do you think the witnesses were, John MacDonald and George McDonald?
The MacDonald/McDonald difference may be down to the transcriber in this case. It appears to me that it's all in the same handwriting.
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I've been in touch with the church who referred me to their archivist from whom I received this reply:
Thank you for your e-mail to the Westminster Diocesan Archives. Following the introduction of the most recent COVID restrictions, the Archives are now closed until further notice. We cannot reply to emails, and we will not be able to make appointments for readers to visit the Archives until we formally reopen.
Family history
If your enquiry relates to family history, please go to Find My Past, as most of the sacramental registers that we hold in the Archives have now been digitised and made available online.
I've tried searching catholic parish records on Find My Past but without success.
John McDonald/Macdonald was the bride's father. George McDonald was the bridegroom's brother. . The McDonald/MacDonald problem is intractable. I've faced it all my life and now rarely bother to "correct" my name when misspelled. You will already have seen in this thread that the two (or more) spellings have often been used interchangeably within my family.
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The only Kensington entry for 1905 I can see is one for ‘Joannem McDonald’ with a bride ‘Mariam Snell’ which would give you the John and Mary - perhaps it is difficult to read :-\
I have no other access
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Hello again
I've now heard back from a very helpful lady from the Westminster Diocesan Archives who found the marriage record which is indeed the one mentioned by Heywood and Maiden Stone. It's clear that it has been incorrectly transcribed. Mariam Snell McSwald should, I think, have been transcribed as Mariam Dorette McDonald and the bride's father (also one of the witnesses) as Joannes (John) McDonald. The other witness George was the bridegroom's elder brother. My grandmother's maiden name was definitely McDonald (although sometimes written Macdonald). There appear to be no other entries in Ancestry or Find My Past for the name McSwald and I think that it is unlikely to be the correct transcription in this case.
The lady from the Archives Office also went on to say:
"Although we hold some marriage dispensations, the collection is by no means comprehensive as a large number of gaps exist. The dispensations we hold date from 1887 – 1901, 1894-1901 and then jump to 1907 -1956 which means that we would not hold anything between the years of 1901 and 1907."
So I seem to be stymied as to whether or not my grandparents were cousins. It seems a bit odd that that there was no mention of the connection in my family's oral history. It could be that, Flora having died when all her children were young, the relationship was never revealed to them. I still find it strange though that I've never heard that my grandfather's father-in-law was also his uncle, particularly since he was apparently a witness at the wedding (and indeed was listed as as having provided a wedding present).
So my search for clues to my grandmother's background continues.
I'm most grateful for the help I've received in this thread.
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Thanks for the update :)
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So I seem to be stymied as to whether or not my grandparents were cousins. It seems a bit odd that that there was no mention of the connection in my family's oral history. It could be that, Flora having died when all her children were young, the relationship was never revealed to them. I still find it strange though that I've never heard that my grandfather's father-in-law was also his uncle, particularly since he was apparently a witness at the wedding (and indeed was listed as as having provided a wedding present).
As they married in a Catholic church it's unlikely that they were first cousins. Catholic church discouraged marriages between 1st cousins. Application for a dispensation for a first cousin marriage had to go to Rome and was supposed to be granted only for a grave reason.
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If they weren't cousins, it leaves me with the still unresolved question of who Flora's parents were. The census info discussed in this thread seemed quite persuasive that my grandmother Flora had a grandmother Sarah McDonald born in Ireland and subsequently living in North Yorkshire, which obviously ties in with the information I now have, thanks to the help here, of my grandfather's family background. Ah well, back to the grindstone.
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According to her Marriage Certificate (September 1905) her father is John McDonald (although signed by him John Macdonald), occupation Butler. In the Wedding report (apparently intended for a local newspaper) the Bride’s parents are listed as John and Mrs McDonald of Scarborough.
When you say her father signed the certificate, do you mean he was a witness?
Is the wedding report something you have in the family?
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In 1901 there is a John Macdonald, aged 45, b. Bedale, Yorkshire, widower, living at 19 Seymour Mews, London (St. Marylebone district), occupation Domestic Butler.
In 1891 there is a John Macdonald, aged 34, b. Catterick, Yorkshire, said to be single, living at Cadwell Hall, Lincolnshire, occupation Butler.
Not sure if you have this:
1871 4817/76/36
Albion Road, Scarborough
John Mackdonald, 18yrs House Servant, b Castlebar, Ireland
In a large household with a variety of servants.
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I hadn't spotted John Mackdonald in Scarborough in 1871 - perhaps because of the variant spelling. It seems particularly significant as the family that he was with in Scarborough was living in Kirkby Fleetham in 1861, the same small village as Walter and Sarah and family. Doesn't this increasingly point to Patrick and John being brothers? Or is there another John McDonald/Macdonald hitherto undiscovered - at least by me? And Lucy still seems difficult to pin down.
When you say her father signed the certificate, do you mean he was a witness? - Yes
Is the wedding report something you have in the family? - Yes, but somewhere in its history it has been torn into small pieces. I've pieced together one page . What else do you think the other pages might reveal (I can read them all but it's very difficult to post the whole document online if it's unlikely to be useful).
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It seems particularly significant as the family that he was with in Scarborough was living in Kirkby Fleetham in 1861, the same small village as Walter and Sarah and family. Doesn't this increasingly point to Patrick and John being brothers? Or is there another John McDonald/Macdonald hitherto undiscovered - at least by me?
Not necessarily brothers. May have been first cousins, second cousins &c., uncle & nephew &c. They may have been no relation. The MacDonald surname may have been common where they came from.
Chain migration was common. An individual or a family settled in a place where there was employment and others from the home area joined them.
John is such a common name.
One of my Irish lines who settled in Lancashire are difficult. There were 3 related families, 2 of whom lived in the same street. Lots of children, duplication & triplication of forenames, even when children were born in the same year. (Confusing for their teachers.) One of those children died in her 20's. Her widower married her cousin. The cousin was my 2x great-aunt Catherine, one of 3 cousins named Catherine. Children of both marriages had the same mother's maiden surname on birth registrations.
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Dear Groat,
Just recently my elderly neighbour asked me to find his relation....much to my surprise its the same people you're discussing...
Flora Sophie Dorothy MacDonald, have only just found the Husband and now confirmed by you guys
had three kids one being Edmund George Macdonald 1910-1959 married Beryl Gwyneth Cranston
shifted to Australia and Barry MacDonald now here in Tasmania. The Men in Barrys line are all military men, and apparently stationed at different times around the world....with excitement this thread has broken the ice..Thankyou...Have to confess the Macdonald/Mcdonald threw me ...now having fully recovered and reading your message below, if I include my home email address, would you be so kind as to send me a copy of that photo of Flora Please... Barry will be chuffed...
my email is Removed Thankyou and Kind Regards from Wintery ol Tasmania
Rick Cragg
I have the family's memorial card). On her Wedding Report she appears as "Miss Flora McDonald, daughter of Mr John and Mrs McDonald, Scarborough". Neither of the bride's parents are listed as guests although presents include a gift from "bride's father". I also have a photograph of her inscribed "Flora Marie Dorette Sophie Macdonald aged 18yrs about 1896"
Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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On her Wedding Report she appears as "Miss Flora McDonald, daughter of Mr John and Mrs McDonald, Scarborough". Neither of the bride's parents are listed as guests although presents include a gift from "bride's father".
Bride's parents wouldn't have been on the guest list because they weren't guests. Parents of a bride, if they were alive, were the hosts.
Do you know if Flora and her husband were cousins?
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"Do you know if Flora and her husband were cousins?"
Ricky Jack is just reposting part of an earlier post of mine. As you know I'm still trying to establish whether Flora and John were cousins. Opinion on this thread seems to think it unlikely, but the coincidences with the McDonalds in Kirkby Fleetham in 1861 and then Sarah in Scarborough seem persuasive to me. I'm not sure where I go from here.
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Hello Ricky Jack
Can I ask what is your connection to my family? Why is Barry not posting himself? Does Barrie (Barry?) MacDonald know who I am? Perhaps it would be best if you send me a Private Message. If it helps, Flora had 6 children, not 3.
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Having spent quite a time researching this family for this thread and searching again as a result of Ricky’s recent thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=849658.msg7170460#msg7170460
I think it quite possible that there is a close family relationship.
When I was searching for Ricky, I came across this old thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=352420.27 which also discusses several of the points and connections discussed here ::)
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Hi and Wow again, Thankyou all...and Goodmorning
the questions...Barry is elderly, a retired Military Man and knows less about computers than I do....as I know very little myself.
Barry and his lovely wife are my neighbours here in Tasmania,
Barry moved around a lot being in the Military being a career man, as he understands his father did also, he died when Barry was 9...hense the last of Family information.
I tried to send my email address, for a copy of a photo from Groat, Im unsure what private messanger is so I'll try this...... rickydbATbigpondDOTcom
Ive enclosed the tree Im slowly building....many thanks if more can be added
Thanks again Rick
1/ Patrick Macdonald
2/ John Macdonald born 1875 ..Sergeant in the east Lancs Regt
married 1905
Mary Dorothea Sophie Flora McDonald born 1878 Surry UK died 1915
her parents John and Mrs McDonald [a Butler]
Had Issue
3/ Eustace James Macdonald 22 November 1907 Kildare Ireland Curragh
3/ Enid Flora Marie born 1911 Guildford Surry UK
3/ Edmund George Macdonald born 1910-1959 Leicester UK.. service number 7259210
married 5 April 1942 Skipton UK
Beryl Gwyneth Cranston born 1917 died 23 March 1963 Blackpool UK
parents John and Gladys Cranston [ nee Williams] ??
Had Issue
4/ Barry Ernest Macdonald born 1946 Brisbane service number R42554
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Ricky, you can send a message to the person by clicking on the small message icon (next to the person one) below the person’s name.
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TA
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Please remove the identifying details for your Australian born neighbour, as he is still alive.
JM
Hi and Wow again, Thankyou all...and Goodmorning
the questions...Barry is elderly, a retired Military Man and knows less about computers than I do....as I know very little myself.
Barry and his lovely wife are my neighbours here in Tasmania,
Barry moved around a lot being in the Military being a career man, as he understands his father did also, he died when Barry was 9...hense the last of Family information.
I tried to send my email address, for a copy of a photo from Groat, Im unsure what private messanger is so I'll try this...... rickydbATbigpondDOTcom
Ive enclosed the tree Im slowly building....many thanks if more can be added
Thanks again Rick
1/ Patrick Macdonald
2/ John Macdonald born 1875 ..Sergeant in the east Lancs Regt
married 1905
Mary Dorothea Sophie Flora McDonald born 1878 Surry UK died 1915
her parents John and Mrs McDonald [a Butler]
Had Issue
3/ Eustace James Macdonald 22 November 1907 Kildare Ireland Curragh
3/ Enid Flora Marie born 1911 Guildford Surry UK
3/ Edmund George Macdonald born 1910-1959 Leicester UK.. service number 7259210
married 5 April 1942 Skipton UK
Beryl Gwyneth Cranston born 1917 died 23 March 1963 Blackpool UK
parents John and Gladys Cranston [ nee Williams] ??
Had Issue
4/ Still alive
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Please remove the identifying details for your Australian born neighbour, as he is still alive.
Ricky you can edit your post within 24 hours of posting. If 24 hours has elapsed you'll need to ask a moderator to edit it for you to remove identifying information.
RootsChat is strict about privacy and security. It's one of the reasons I like it.
The "Help" tab at the top of the page contains guidelines + a lot of advice about posting.
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Hi. I am researching the family tree for a friend to give to the daughter of Roy Stanley Cranston who was the brother of Beryl Gwyneth Cranston. Does your friend spell his name Barrie or Barry? Can you pm me to discuss as your info is at odds to what I have been told as I have a Barrie born to a Edmund George Cranston and Beryl in the UK who vaguely remembers him.
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
If you make at least one more post, you can use the PM (Personal Message) system to contact others on this thread and exchange details.
See: https://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
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Welcome to RootsChat, colimar.
Is your post for Ricky Jack who joined this thread at reply #64?
Naming living persons isn't allowed on the Forum which is public.
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Hi Colimer99,
I think I have managed a private message, anyway of the 2 Barrys you name its the first one
Cheers
Rick
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Did Patrick marry Mary Harriet Dicker.
In 1881 and 1891 4028/26, Sarah has a granddaughter with her.
Florence Mary MacDonald b 1878.
Birth index shows mother as Dicker.
Where can I find this Dicker birth index reference please? As far as I'm aware the mother of this Florence Mary MacDonald was Lucy Leonora Feldman. Father John McDonald (possibly Patrick's brother).
Patrick married Bridget Brangan.
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https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
But that birth was based on a different marriage.
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https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
But that birth was based on a different marriage.
Thank you