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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: DIAshurst on Monday 29 March 21 19:57 BST (UK)
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I'm looking for opinions on what could be two baptismal records for the same person.
William Bryden is the subject of this enquiry, who is my GGG Grandfather. I believe he married Janet Hairstones, however this is not definite but most likely on the information I have. He was shown as being born in Scotland on deceased on Charles (his son's) marriage certificate 20th September 1858.
The quandary I have is as follows. I have two baptisms which have the same information with regards to the parents of William at two different locations on two different dates. The locations are 13 miles apart.
1.
William Bryden
Male
Birth Date 12 Aug 1800
Birth Place Morton By Thornhill, Dumfries, Scotland
Baptism Place Morton By Thornhill, Dumfries, Scotland
Father Robert Bryden
Mother Agnes Smith
2.
William Bryden
Male
Baptism Date 15 Dec 1799
Baptism Place Kirkmichael, Dumfries, Scotland
Father Robert Bryden
Mother Agnes Smith
William is nowhere to be seen in the 1941 census which shows Janet Hairstones and her children in Thornhill, Dumfriesshire, nor can I find record of him or his death.
Is this likely to be the same person in both Birth/Christening records?
Thank you for any observations you might have
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Have you looked at the originals of both baptisms to see if there is any more information in either one?
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WILLIAM BRYDEN Birth/baptism ROBERT BRYDEN/AGNES SMITH 12/08/1800 Morton
WILLIAM BRYDEN Died Age 74 SMITH 1874 Morton
WILLIAM BRYDEN Birth/baptism ROBERT BRYDEN/AGNES SMITH 15/12/1799 Kirkmichael
For information.
Colin
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There were a number of marriages in the County for a William Bryden, none in Kirkmichael but 3 in Morton below.
BRYDEN WILLIAM JANET HAIRSTONES 26/07/1822 Morton
Children born Morton as you may know.
BRYDEN WILLIAM MARGARET KERR 21/10/1823 Morton
No children.
I suspect this is the one who died in 1874.
WILLIAM BRYDEN Married GRACE GEDDES 02/03/1827 Morton
They are on freecen 1841 at Meetinghouse St. - South Side, Morton, William is a mason Journeyman, all born Dumfriesshire.
There are 3 children, James Geddas 80 and James Hunter 20 a clerk, they are still there in 1861,
William in noted as born Tinwald 1799?
1851 SP
WILLIAM BRYDEN As above 1851 49 Morton Dumfries
The only other one on census in the County
WILLIAM BRYDEN On freecen 1861 1851 51 Tinwald Dumfries
No deaths before 1855 on SP for Morton or Kirkmichael.
So I guess it depends on the child of any of the above that you are related to.
Colin
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There were 6 Robert Bryden/Brydon’s born in Scotland 1768-1783, two in Dumfriesshire, which may not help.
BRYDEN ROBERT JOHN BRYDEN/ELIZABETH CORRIE 05/05/1776 Lochmaben
BRYDEN ROBERT JOHN BRYDEN/JANET CORRIE 21/03/1777 Kirkmichael
In the same period 164 Agnes Smith's in Scotland, 14 in Dumfriesshire, one in Kirkmichael and three in Lochmaben
No marriages for Robert & Agnes on SP
Children of ROBERT BRYDEN/AGNES SMITH
Kirkmichael
WILLIAM 15/12/1799, JOHN 8/11/1801, JANET 14/05/1803
Tinwald
MARYANN 1/04/1805, JEAN11/01/1809, JAMES SMITH 28/12/1810, JAMES 16/06/1813
Morton
WILLIAM 12/08/1800 – so if there were two Robert & Agnes marriages maybe this is the odd one out?
The following census on freecen, no record for the Janet & Thomas mentioned?
1841 - Trailflatt Village, Tinwald
BRYDEN Robert M 65 Labourer Bleacher DFS
SMITH Agnes F 60 DFS
BRYDEN Janet F 25 DFS
BRYDEN Thomas M 20 Mason DFS
BRYDEN James M 18 Mason DFS
Colin
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Have you looked at the originals of both baptisms to see if there is any more information in either one?
Thank you for your suggestion.
I've looked at both documents. It would appear that ther is no further information.
David
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WILLIAM BRYDEN Birth/baptism ROBERT BRYDEN/AGNES SMITH 12/08/1800 Morton
WILLIAM BRYDEN Died Age 74 SMITH 1874 Morton
WILLIAM BRYDEN Birth/baptism ROBERT BRYDEN/AGNES SMITH 15/12/1799 Kirkmichael
For information.
Colin
Thanks for your information. These are both records I've found and which are confusing me. Both parents with the same name. The baptism before the birth and the location 13 miles apart.
The William I am looking to trace is shown as deceased on his sons marriage certificate in 1858.
There is a William Bryden in Thornhill married to Grace Geddes, however they do not, as far as I can see, have a son named Charles.
The William Bryden marriage to Janet Hairstones indicates them being in Morton by Thornhill at the
time of marriage. A Janet Bryden is on the 1841 census in Thornhill with children and son called Charles, one of twins which feature in our tree. William is not on the census.
David
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There were a number of marriages in the County for a William Bryden, none in Kirkmichael but 3 in Morton below.
BRYDEN WILLIAM JANET HAIRSTONES 26/07/1822 Morton
Children born Morton as you may know.
BRYDEN WILLIAM MARGARET KERR 21/10/1823 Morton
No children.
I suspect this is the one who died in 1874.
WILLIAM BRYDEN Married GRACE GEDDES 02/03/1827 Morton
They are on freecen 1841 at Meetinghouse St. - South Side, Morton, William is a mason Journeyman, all born Dumfriesshire.
There are 3 children, James Geddas 80 and James Hunter 20 a clerk, they are still there in 1861,
William in noted as born Tinwald 1799?
1851 SP
WILLIAM BRYDEN As above 1851 49 Morton Dumfries
The only other one on census in the County
WILLIAM BRYDEN On freecen 1861 1851 51 Tinwald Dumfries
No deaths before 1855 on SP for Morton or Kirkmichael.
So I guess it depends on the child of any of the above that you are related to.
Colin
Colin
Thanks for your reply.
I'm looking for William with a son named Charles who is shown as deceased when Charles was married in 1858. The only one I can trace where a child named Charles was present is on the 1841 census with a 'mother' named Janet. Although William is not on the census, the marriage of William to Jannet Hairstones 26/07/1822 gives a strong indication that this may be correct William. I searched other possible William Brydens for a Charles without joy. The fact the there are twins on the 1841 census again indicates this may be the right family
Regards
David
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Have you looked at both original baptism records?
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Charles Bryden born 18/9/1831, Morton to William Bryden and Janet Hastings on SP. Hastings/Hairstones may be a name variant.
hmcc
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Charles Bryden born 18/9/1831, Morton to William Bryden and Janet Hastings on SP. Hastings/Hairstones may be a name variant.
hmcc
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Thanks HMCC
I spotted that one and have taken it into account whilst researching. There seems to be quite a few variants along the line, which doesn’t help. Lol
David
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It looks most likely that the parents of Charles below are BRYDEN WILLIAM & JANET HAIRSTONES / HASTINGS who married 26/07/1822 Morton
Children all born Morton. WILLIAM 20/01/1822, JOHN 14/03/1824, JAMES 15/05/1827, CHARLES & MARY 18/09/1831
1841 South Drumlanrig St. - W. Side, Morton the above family except no William senior or James.
So William most likely died before 1841.
No trace of Charles in 1851 but the marriage you mention below.
Charles Bryden to Eliza Clarke
Marriage Q3/1858
Whitehaven, Cumberland, England
1861 - Main Street, Egremont
BRYDEN Charles Head 29 Iron Miner /news Agent SCT -
BRYDEN Eliza Wife 29 YKS Leeds
BRYDEN Jessie Dau 1 CUL Egremont
Your original post mentioned you were unsure which of the two Williams born to Robert & Agnes was the correct one.
Given the names of William & Janet’s children I do not think it was either. Assuming they followed the Scottish Naming Pattern their eldest son would be William, though not all did, however I would have thought they would have named at least one of their sons Robert. Have you considered the birth below?
BRYDEN WILLIAM WILLIAM BRYDEN/JEAN GLENDINNING 06/05/1798 Tinwald
Another way to check might be a look at the 1874 death of William Bryden there maybe some information to help?
Regards Colin