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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: maxcam on Saturday 27 March 21 19:31 GMT (UK)
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I have a birth certificate circa 1919 which has an annotation by the Registrar " Adopted" at Birth. Does this imply, family stepped in, or external adoption or that someone was awaiting the birth? So puzzling as Adoption Records are a minefield. As Roots Chat has solved so many of my previous queries I will throw this open to all the wisdom out there, thanks.
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I have a birth certificate circa 1919 which has an annotation by the Registrar " Adopted" at Birth. Does this imply, family stepped in, or external adoption or that someone was awaiting the birth? So puzzling as Adoption Records are a minefield. As Roots Chat has solved so many of my previous queries I will throw this open to all the wisdom out there, thanks.
That's very interesting because there was no formal adoption process until about 1930, so I wouldn't have expected a registrar's note on a pre-1930 birth certificate unless the child was not actually adopted until after 1930.
G F Bisset-Smith's Vital Registration (published in 1902) says, "As Registrars are sometimes consulted concerning cases where children are to be received into the houses of those who are not their real parents, it has to be pointed out that adoption is not recognised in the Laws of Scotland and England, and that, therefore, all such arrangements must be matters of agreement: also, that an addition to, or alteration of, the name in the Birth Register can be made only under the provisions of section 32 or 33 of the Registration Act, 17 and 18 Vict c 80.
"Accordingly, no entry regarding adoption can be made in the Birth Register ...."
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Now I am totally confused. From tracing this family I have discovered that there was an older child but the baby was registered by Mother. Also given later developments it is conceivable that the marriage of the parents had already broken down. Is it possible that the baby was adopted by family members. The older child was raised by Aunt and Uncle but no sign of the baby there.
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The child as said by Forfarian would not have been "adopted" at birth as there was no such thing in 1919.
It may have been brought up by a family member or fostered out to someone else and then officially adopted after 1930. Who registered the birth in 1919? Have you traced the baby in later life?
Would you be prepared to share any further details with us as to the child's name at birth which would be helpful.
Dorrie
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The baby's name was Mary Brownlie, daughter of James and Janet (Rintoul) Brownlie. Mary's date of birth was 4th October 1919 and registered by her mother on 13th October 1919 in the parish of Dalziel, Lanarkshire. As I said Mary had an older sister, Annie born 26th December 1915. Home address same in both cases. Father's occupation is given as 1) Miner 2) Private 2nd Battalion Scots Rifles. Sadly Mary's mother, Janet, died six months after her birth. Her Father remarried the next year but did not take Annie with him, she was raised by extended family. So really puzzled as to Mary's fate.
The same name of the Registrar who recorded Mary's birth matches that of the "Adoption" notation.
Any pointers would be gratefully received as usual
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There is this death showing on SP:
Mary BROWNLIE
Age 80
Mother's maiden name RINTOUL
Death yr 2000
Ref 735/ 335
Edinburgh
Monica
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On the death reg, there is a second surname showing for this Mary of DUNCAN. Can't see a Scottish marriage for a Mary Brownlie to a Duncan so hard to comment further on how the surname comes in to play.
Monica
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Good find MonicaL.
If Mary had ever been legally adopted her mother's maiden name of Rintoul would not have been indexed on her Death Registration.
This leaves us with two possibilities - 1. Mary married a gentleman with the Surname of Duncan out with Scotland. 2. She never married but used the surname of Duncan all her life - possibly from the people who brought her up.
I have a similar scenario with my late mum who was born in 1918 but the difference being I knew all the relevant details.
You could send for her death certificate from scotlandspeople at a cost of around £12.00 + postage or wait for the 1921 Scottish Census to be published (hopefully later this year) and try to find her listed under Brownlie or Duncan.
Please keep us updated.
Dorrie
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Annie married a James McConnell on 3/11/1933 in Glasgow. You may already have this information. According to a Family Tree on Ancestry Annie died in Ballarat, Victoria, Australia on 1/7/1985.
This tree also has a note to say "After her mother died Annie is believed to have been placed in a Children's Home. It is believed she joined her father's new family with her step mother - Helen Reid - and assisted in caring for her step brothers and sisters" Obviously, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this statement.
Annie and James seem to have had at least 10 children some of whom settled in Canada and others in Australia. Again from Family Trees on Ancestry.
Dorrie
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From that, Dorrie, there may well be poor relief notes etc that could be followed up for both the girls, Annie and Mary (once the Mitchell Library in Glasgow is up and running again)? Maybe the marriage entry you found might include family witnesses?
Monica
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Hi Monica I couldn't resist a look at Annie's Marriage Certificate for 1933 and she states that her father is deceased too. Witnesses are John Garth and Edward Hughes. Annie's address is given as 20 Dalmahoy Street. They were married at 6 Annfield Street, after Banns according to Forms of Church of Scotland.
I wonder if there was some sort of fall out with her father as it would appear he did not die until 1953 at Stirling. He married Helen Reid in Edinburgh. Now got me wondering, sadly, if he abandoned his two young daughters Annie and Mary?
The Mitchell Library might yield something but no word of it reopening yet.
Dorrie
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Without additional notes from those times, so hard to say isn't it what actually happened with the girls following their mother Janet's death. I wonder too if they girls grew up without any contact with each other?
Maxcam, you commented earlier that Ann was brought up by an aunt and uncle?
Monica
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Many thanks for all your assistance. I know about Annie's family after her marriage to James McConnell and they went on to have 14 children. In the 1950's one half of the family went to Australia, including Annie and James, whilst the remaining half of the children emigrated to Canada. It is a distant relative in Canada whom I am trying to assist.
The Edinburgh address might be a possibility as Mary's Father's second address on his DC is given as Edinburgh, the first is sadly a Lunatic Asylum in Stirling. I cannot wait until 1921 census is published when some of my bits of paper might make some sense. In the meantime I'll plough on. By the way my relative in Canada, especially, really appreciates all of your wisdom. Her late Grandmother Annie, always wondered whether she had any siblings too late for Annie but the rest of the family now know some of the history.
Many thanks, once again and I'll keep you up to date with any further information.
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Yes, I also got a copy of Annie's Marriage cert to James McConnell in 1933 and same as you, noted she said her Father was deceased. Sad and like you I also wondered if family ties had been severed. One of Annie's earliest memories, which she related in later life, was when she was about 5, she remembered living with Auntie Annie and her three oldest children, whose names match exactly with those of the oldest children of my paternal Grandparents. My paternal Grandfather and Annie's Father were half brothers. No trace of Annie from her early childhood until her marriage in 1933 but from the Lanarkshire/Glasgow areas doubt if she travelled very far. I also noted no occupation given for Annie on her MC, perhaps in service? Just when I thought I was done with mysteries but as Hercule said it keeps the little grey cells ticking over. Not much else to do at this time.
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We are always pleased to help and I can speak for Monica too. Just sorry that we could not give you any more information.
Poor Annie wondering if she had any siblings and not knowing of Mary's existence. Oh what a tangled web we weave.
I too am looking forward to seeing the 1921 Scottish Census as it will be interesting to find out how my mum is described by her foster parents.
Just out of curiosity what Edinburgh address is given on the father's DC in 1953?
Good luck and hopefully some day the mystery will be solved.
Dorrie
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Possibility for further checking:
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Name: Mary Duncan
Death Date: 31 May 2000
Burial or Cremation Date: 7 Jun 2000
Burial or Cremation Place: Edinburgh, Scotland
Deceasedonline seem to have a Cremation register scan available for £2, but not sure if it would provide any useful details.
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Yes, Scotsmum, that is the one we had seen. Just a lack of marriage so far for a Mary Brownlie to a Duncan in Scotland. She could have married elsewhere though.
Added: Just checked. No marriage in England & Wales that I can see.
Monica
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Yes, but you had noted the death index from SP, whereas this might be same person, but refers to a cremation certificate at Deceasedonline, hence why I posted, in case it was worth maxcam's while chancing £2 on same.
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Annie married a James McConnell on 3/11/1933 in Glasgow. You may already have this information. According to a Family Tree on Ancestry Annie died in Ballarat, Victoria, Australia on 1/7/1985.
This tree also has a note to say "After her mother died Annie is believed to have been placed in a Children's Home. It is believed she joined her father's new family with her step mother - Helen Reid - and assisted in caring for her step brothers and sisters" Obviously, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this statement.
Annie and James seem to have had at least 10 children some of whom settled in Canada and others in Australia. Again from Family Trees on Ancestry.
Dorrie
Actually the above information on ancestry is not entirely correct. I am going to reach out to that person to have it corrected as soon as I find it. Yes Annie died in 1985 in Ballarat. She and her husband James McConnell actually had 14 children. Some immigrated to Canada, one remained in Scotland and Annie, her husband and the remainder went to Australia. When Annie's mother died she did not go into a home for children. She was raised by a family member, an Aunt. Thanks MAXCAM for trying to help with the mystery of Mary! I really appreciate the help of everyone on this site. I am a descendant of Annie and we were not aware of any siblings so this is so interesting.
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Yes, I also got a copy of Annie's Marriage cert to James McConnell in 1933 and same as you, noted she said her Father was deceased. Sad and like you I also wondered if family ties had been severed. One of Annie's earliest memories, which she related in later life, was when she was about 5, she remembered living with Auntie Annie and her three oldest children, whose names match exactly with those of the oldest children of my paternal Grandparents. My paternal Grandfather and Annie's Father were half brothers. No trace of Annie from her early childhood until her marriage in 1933 but from the Lanarkshire/Glasgow areas doubt if she travelled very far. I also noted no occupation given for Annie on her MC, perhaps in service? Just when I thought I was done with mysteries but as Hercule said it keeps the little grey cells ticking over. Not much else to do at this time.
MAXCAM, I found the people that raised Annie! I got in contact with them today and that mystery has been solved. It turns out that the Aunt Annie is actually the brother of Annie's father James Brownlie. I am now in contact with the great granddaughter of Annie. This is so amazing! We may finally get some more answers relating to my grandmother's upbringing. So far she has noted that she believes Annie was an only child so it's makes the Mary situation even more interesting. She and I will have many conversations going forward and I hope we can get a better understanding of how my grandmother grew up!!
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The Edinburgh address for James Docherty Brownlie in 1953 DC was 252 Arthur Street, that is if I am reading the handwriting correctly.
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Thanks for posting the Edinburgh address maxcam. Old part of Edinburgh near Holyrood Park - now demolished.
Dorrie
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Would that have been part of the St. Giles Parish?
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It shows just outside the St Giles district area on this 1955 map www.edinphoto.org.uk/1_MAP/1_map_edinburgh_1955_c_1536.htm#map
Arthur Street shows just outside the south east tip of the boundary, pretty much next to the H for Holyrood Park.
Dorrie can I ask you a question? There is now an Arthur Street in Leith. Was this street in Leith also there in a similar time frame or is it a newer street?
Struggling to get a high street number on Arthur Street. Nowhere near the 252 you mention was on James Brownlie's death reg. This was with checking the 1940 Valuation Rolls and 1940-41 Post Office Directory.
If the Arthur Street by Holyrood Park is the correct one, there are some photos of it here http://edinphoto.org.uk - just type Arthur Street into the search box.
Monica
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Had another look at the address and instead of 252 Arthur Street it might possibly be 52. Would that make more sense?
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Re the 1919 birth certificate that has been annotated.
Was an RCE issued to include this information?
I have discovered at least 2 birth records for my family where a late RCE was issued to amend names.
Both were well into adulhood when their RCEs were issued.
It took me a long time to work out what this was.
In both cases the biological father had died when they were infants.
Both had been raised by step fathers and both had always used their stepfathers last names.
I came to realise that in adulthood, both of these people required a passport but, of course, neither could supply a birth certificate in the name that they had always used.
It was done by RCE. ( 1960 and 1990)
This did not alter the birth details in any way, but, simply showed the name that these people had always used.
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Monica - I think Arthur Street was at one time in the Registration District of St Giles. The City Fathers changed the boundaries a number of times over the years. There are now only two Districts left - Edinburgh and Leith.
The Arthur Street in question was the one in Dumbiekykes area of Edinburgh.
It ran from the Pleasance down to the park. All demolished in the 1960's and new housing built.
The Arthur Street in Leith has always been there (in living memory anyway) Up until 1920 Leith and Edinburgh were two separate places and had their individual Councils. The boundary between Leith and Edinburgh was at Pilrig Street - North from there was Leith and South Edinburgh. There was a pub called the Boundary Bar - Half in Edinburgh and half in Leith with a line on the floor marking the border. Drinking hours were different so at Edinburgh closing time the punters moved across the line to Leith and had another pint. This practice continued for many years.
By the way people who are born in Leith still refer to themselves as Leithers and will never say they were born in Edinburgh. Strange people up here :) :)
Dorrie
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Ann_P To answer your question there is no RCE attached to Mary's Birth Certificate. Written on the left hand side is "Adopted" and the Registrar's name. I downloaded it myself just to check. So maxcam is no further forward with finding out who brought Mary up.
I know what you mean about late RCE's as I have a couple of family ones too. Very confusing at times.
Dorrie
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Thanks Dorrie.
I couldn't see any mention of a possible RCE on the thread.
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Maxcam it's wonderful that the descendants of Annie and Mary can share stories and maybe photos
Among my DNA links are two people who had same ggrandmother one daughter was adopted but knew her birth mother and the other brought up by birth father . They gave me permission to share a photo of the birth mother as I was comparing likenesses to JONES family
To the amazement of the one whose grandma was brought up by father he had exactly the same photo tho he didn't know who it was
It proved that the birth mother or her family had been in touch with both daughters after a marriage and subsequent children !(it
Also meant I could work out how the DNA connected to one as I'd been looking at a different line of Jones on their tree that didn't match !)
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Sorry if I am silly but I don't know what RCE is. For a bit of background the person in question lost her mother when she was approx 4 years old but she did not live with her Father after that and was raised by extended family.Would this fit?
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Sorry we are using jargon here. An RCE (Register of Corrected Entries) is an amendment to a Birth, Marriage or Death Certificate. It comes in the form of an extra sheet attached to the original. A reason for this could be when the mother of an illegitimate child takes the father to court to prove paternity.
Whole number of reasons depending on the circumstances of the event.
Dorrie
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Thanks for that, I'll go and have another look at the Certificate
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Thanks for asking that question maxcam.i didn't know what an RCE was either !
Although adoption wasn't legalized til1924
My own grandmother was listed as Adopted daughter on UK.1911 census
As was her potential half sister .
The term foster child wasn't used .
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In Scotland legal adoptions did not come into being until 1930. Later than the rest of the U.K.
Dorrie
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I know what you mean. MY OH's maternal family were Leithers and woe betide you if you said they lived in Edinburgh. We actually had a wander down Leith Walk a few years looking for the " Hole in The Wall", one of his childhood memories and we stopped a road sweeper for directions only to discover a supermarket had been built on the spot. Such is life
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Sorry, I just seem to be asking questions. Why can I can I not access a death cert for 2000? also what is Deceased on Line? Ta
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No problem ask all the questions you need answers to and someone will try to give you the answer.
The rules for accessing Birth, Marriage and Deaths online in Scotland are as follows-
Births - less than 100 years, Marriages - less than 75 years and Deaths less than 50 years. This is to protect those who may still be alive. Having said that you can view them in person in Edinburgh or Glasgow (Mitchell Library) but they are closed due to Covid 19 at the moment. However you can order a copy via scotlandspeople.gov.uk at a cost of £12.00 + postage.
Dorrie
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also what is Deceased on Line? Ta
It is a commercial web site that makes available burial records from a large number of local authorities.
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Nearly forgot to answer your second question -
Deceased Online UK offers a digital scan of burial/cremation records. Beware though because they state " Where burial or cremation Registers contain information about possible living people the personal details in the scan may be masked to comply with data protection."
Dorrie
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Many thanks for your advice but I think I'll keep plodding on with my little bits of paper. No almost knee deep
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As usual with lots of help from Roots Chat I have managed to trace the people I was looking for. Still some questions but they will be lost in the mist of time. Many thanks again