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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Essnell on Monday 22 March 21 00:52 GMT (UK)
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Hi Rootschaters,
My paternal Grandmother's family apparently originate from Poland.
i have no real information about them other than names as conflicting information off a number of Family trees...
so what i know is Gt Grandma: Adeline Emilie Ottilie Schadowesky {Schadowski}
DoB 1845.
Birth place 1. Pom, Chalehihuitán, Chiapas, Mexico.
or Place 2. laurenburg, Rhein-Lahn-Kreis, Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
or place 3. Laurneburg, Herzogtum, Laurenburg, Schleswig-Holstein, Germany.
parents: Father: Schovski Shadowski(y) Mother: Pilnie Wischovofske.
I know #1 is a real place in Mexico. Today's population 214 persons. So a very small place.
Question. Could this child have been actually born there but the birth recorded in some German /Polish record kept there at the time.
Which or the other two would be the better or correct record.
Then how do I find out about her parents.
Any Ideas would be very helpful and thanks for reading.
Regards
Essnell
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Have you tried searching every relevant census.....
You might strike lucky and find country of birth on one perhaps??
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Hi Mowsehowse,
No , I haven't and that is another issue I can read very little German and as for Polish... totally out of luck there.
I'll give it a go . Probably only get Australian ones.
Thanks for the idea though
Regards Essnell
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Some more variations on the death certificate:
https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2019/325/135004054_1ddca7fb-141b-44e7-93b3-7dde4f14a367.jpeg
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... Adeline Emilie Ottilie Schadowesky {Schadowski}
DoB 1845.
Birth place 1. Pom, Chalehihuitán, Chiapas, Mexico.
or Place 2. laurenburg, Rhein-Lahn-Kreis, Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
or place 3. Laurneburg, Herzogtum, Laurenburg, Schleswig-Holstein, Germany.
parents: Father: Schovski Shadowski(y) Mother: Pilnie Wischovofske.
I know #1 is a real place in Mexico. Today's population 214 persons. So a very small place.
Question. Could this child have been actually born there but the birth recorded in some German /Polish record kept there at the time.
Which or the other two would be the better or correct record.
Then how do I find out about her parents.
Where did you get the 3 possible places of birth from? I do see an online tree that gives the place of her birth as Laurenburg but not exactly as you have listed #2 and #3.
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Oz census may give you conclusive with luck.... l don't know the categories.
If you can narrow it down that way, you can be more specific in your searching and there is always help at hand here, and on fb groups.
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Hi Agahadowey and others,
I found the place names on the searches trees. There are lots there and several with the first and also both the others which were a little different to the one you have quoted.
I'll double check and make sure they are correct.
Now I took the advice a mowsehowse and tried to find census - nothing came up.
I then did some thing odd - googled the name and I got 3 answers. One was to a tree for people in Uzbekistan. That hit a note. I have not long done my DNA for a completely different reason than this, and there is one from this state. I have contacted this person. Worth a try. Unfortunately I suspect I will need to know a Russian dialect. This could possibly lead to Adeline's parents . maybe.
Shaun J, Thank you for the grave Link. That is really great.Yes another variation. Makes one wonder.
I am still wondering why 3 or 4 of the trees have this Mexican place of birth.
Thanks everyone , I'll keep you posted on progress.
Regards
Essnell
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In 1877 the family had come from Lantow (now: Letowo) in Kr Lauenburg, Pommern.
NB I suspect that the couple were married here abt 1870/1.
In those days most people didn’t move around a lot, so couldn’t “Sluschow” (per Adeline’s DC) actually be Schluschow/Slus(z)ow (now: Sluszewo). This place is only abt 14 kms from Lantow and it was also in Kr Lauenburg.
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Hi TreeSpirit,
Thankyou for the 1877 information and yes that is very likely to be the case. My knowledge of this area in this detail is quite limited.
I think Pommern was one of the Eastern Prussian States? and probably where Poland is today? or further northeast.
Thank you for this is helpful.
Essnell.
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Unfortunately I'm no specialist and these places were/are only small villages, i.e. the right area for a "landmann" .... The following is my best effort (but might not be perfect as there can be duplicate names around the country)
- In the late 19th century Schluschow was a "Dominium" (State-owned Estate) that had abt 182 residents. It hasn't grown much, because I believe this is modern day Sluszevo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C5%82uszewo
However I realised that there actually were two Lantow's in Pommerania!:
- #1 - a Rittergut (Landed Estate) in Kr Lauenburg with 341 residents in the late 19th century. Nowadays Letowo as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81%C4%99towo,_Pomeranian_Voivodeship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81%C4%99towo,_Pomeranian_Voivodeship)
some pictures: https://reiseleiter-leba.eu/de,2,63,lantow__kr_lauenburg_pom.html (https://reiseleiter-leba.eu/de,2,63,lantow__kr_lauenburg_pom.html)
- and a little to left is #2 - a "Dorf und Rittergut" (Village and Landed Estate) in Kr Schlawe with 135 residents in the late 19th century. Nowadays Letowo as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81%C4%99towo,_West_Pomeranian_Voivodeship
If you want to look them up in Google Maps, wiki mentions the coordinates (important forthe correct modern versions):
So for Sluzewo enter: 54°39′42″N 18°3′57″E (it will translate to Słuszewo 7, 84-251)
For Letowo #1 enter: 54°42′51″N 17°54′32″E (it will translate to Łętowo 20, 84-210)
Letowo # 2 is 54°16′55″N 16°48′55″E (Łętowo, 76-124, Poland) and just over 100k’s from Sluzewo, so a less likely option
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Hi Essnell
In 1877 Carl Kopitke and Adeline Schadowski (sic - I'm looking at an index, it should read Schadowska) registered a son Otto Herman Albert in the Żelazna registration district in Pomorskie (Pomeranian region in northern Poland). This would tie in with son Hermann, 49, on Adeline's death cert. All the mothers are listed under their maiden names in these records.
Lauenburg is now Lębork.
Gaie
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Hi TreeSpirit,
Expert or not Wow and thank you. I shall look them up shortly. The places were small and I suppose they still are.
On that Cert from ShaunJ -Schivoski Schadowsky was a Tailor - thus he made clothing.
I am wondering if that is of any significance. doubt it though.
I have not found anything else myself so a big thank you for all the references.
Essnell
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Hi Gaie,
Thank you for looking up those indexes. Yes Otto Hermann was her son. The family eventually immigrates to Australia.
How far back do those records go? I would like to get Adeline's birth if possible. She was born in 1845. Her mother being Pilnie Wischovofske. It might help explain why some have this Mexican birth place.
Thanks ever so much
Essnell
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The village Zelasen (now Zelazno) was just a couple of km’s up the road from Lantow (#1), so at least we seem to have the right area. That's already a good start ..
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In 1877 Carl Kopitke and Adeline Schadowski (sic - I'm looking at an index, it should read Schadowska) registered a son Otto Herman Albert in the Żelazna registration district in Pomorskie (Pomeranian region in northern Poland). This would tie in with son Hermann, 49, on Adeline's death cert.
When the family leaves Hamburg in 3 April 1877, they have
Hermine 5 => b abt 1871/2
Herman 3 => b abt 1873/4
Frederick 1 ½ => b abt 1875 (dies at the end of the voyage)
Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSZY-M12M
So Otto Herman b Jan 1877 appears to have been another child who might have died before 3 april 1877
(http://)
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PS can any one read the religion as that could help when searching for parish registers
(could it be evangelisch?)
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Hi TreeSpirit,
Thankyou for what you are finding on these personsi appreciate it very much.
On the birth Cert for Otto, I too would think the religion would be Evangelish. Here in Australia they were part of the Lutheran Church Community. I cannot read much on the document but the Lutheran Religion seems to have been what the people from this area all followed.
Otto lived for many years and is recorded on the Death Certificate as the Informant to the Registery Office about the death. He was 47 when his mother died.
Yes, these are the correct family in this place.
Essnell
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Otto lived for many years and is recorded on the Death Certificate as the Informant to the Registery Office about the death. He was 47 when his mother died.
But where is this Otto on the 1877 outward (Hamburg) and inward (Brisbane) passenger lists?
Update: When he gets married in 1914, he's living in Kerschkow, Kr Lauenburg ...
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Hi Essnell
I think Electoral Rolls are more help than census records in Australia.
Very early in the history of 'white' people in Australia, musters were held to keep track of convicts and settlers. After that electoral rolls are your best bet I believe. You may not find women until early 1900s.
'Trove' collection of newspapers is also a good source of info. Our BDM records are pretty good too.
Wiggy.
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Hi Wiggy,
yes the electoral rolls are helpful here in Oz but they won't tell me anything about Poland.
Trove does have a lot of info on there - don't know about this set of people though.
I'll go through those for the Australian part. This is one slightly neglected section, just the bare essentials while I went off on one of about 8 lines. Now I have this Polish part.
Thanks for the ideas, all help. Essnell.
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HI TreeSpirit,
Now that is an interesting piece of information. I have not checked the immigration recs for here . As I said this is a pretty neglected trail. I always thought they all came out together.
So Otto married in Poland and then came here following his parents.
Ok let me do some checking this end and I'll get back to you.
Essnell.
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Hi TreeSpirit,
Ok , I have checked the Arrivals for this end and just Carl and Adeline and the three children, no Otto,
are recorded. The birth record says 14th June 1877. I wonder if he was born on the way over.
Yes, he must have been because the ship reached Australia 4th September 1877. If he was born June he was almost 3 months old when they arrived and would not be on any lists . But he was on a German ship and they would have recorded him as a German Citizen and had all the details documented back in Germany/Poland, when the vessel returned. I do not know if he would have an Australian Birth record as well. Probably not as the ship would have not been close enough in June for that to happen.I think it still happens this way today.
No wonder little Frederick died.
My Dad was born here but he has a German Birth Certificate as well as the Australian one because he was born before WW1.
Thanks again for all the help.
Essnell
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No, his birth was 14 January 1877 back in Germany ... as per that BC that I'd added: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=846351.msg7134492#msg7134492
It seems that he got left behind ... maybe he was too weak for the voyage
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Otto and his young wife Erna got married in January 1914 and 3 months later they departed from Bremen on the Scharnhorst. It seems that Brisbane was their final destination, but I believe that the Scharnhorst did not go further than Sydney.
Scharnhorst schedule: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/176213636?searchTerm=scharnhorst
Australia, Victoria, Inward Passenger List: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSX8-W3LN-5?cc=2778600
Otto is listed as "English" ... I assume that his father would have naturalised when Otto was still a minor. so he would have automatically naturalised as well.
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Birth certificate fron Otto 1877
Father
Tagelöhner (day worker), Karl Kopitke
wohnhaft (resident) in Neurode
evangelische Religion
Mother
Adeline Kopitke nee Schadowski, his wife
evangelische Religion, wohnhaft (resident) bei Ihm (with him)
Neurode, Vorwerk von Lantow
Born
am dreizehnten(13) Januar 1877, at 8 am
a male child,
Otto Herman Albert
Vorwerk: a smaller village or farm belonging to a larger place
Dave
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Map
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I know not all trees are correct - check this one out to see if it confirms your research
https://gw.geneanet.org/erick6?n=schadowski&oc=&p=adeline+ottilie+emilie
the tree owner has Adelines married name as surname - so a direct descendant - Eric Kopittke
Emigration: 5 April 1877Hamburg
https://gw.geneanet.org/erick6?lang=en&p=carl+ferdinand+martin&n=kopittke
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Birth certificate fron Otto 1877
...
Thanks for the transcription, Dave.
I can find those docs, because I can recognize the names ....but unfortunately the rest of the contents can remain a bit of a mystery due to the handwriting.... ;D
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Maybe it is worth adding that Neurode is now called Niepoczyn and that it belongs to the village of Słajkowo.
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My Dad was born here but he has a German Birth Certificate as well as the Australian one because he was born before WW1.
Thanks again for all the help.
Essnell
As Australia was a British Colony in those days, I think the country had more or less the same laws a the UK and other Western Countries.
Migrants would keep the nationalities of the countries they were born in, unless they paid money to the host country and asked permission to change their nationality. In the case of your ancestor change it to "Australian".
Further if an Australian woman married (for example) a European German (or Austrian, etc), then the Australian woman would automatically become a German. In old parlance she would become an "Alien" like her husband.
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Regarding Adeline's parents :
I've just read that the "Kirchenbücher" for Schluschow were lost/destroyed. If that is true, we won't be able to use her baptism as a source of information for her parents.
Update: this seems to be the same unfortunate story for Neurode and Lantow ... :'(
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Hi Everyone,
Going back a few posts - so baby Otto was left behind in Poland. I wonder who he was left with. Then he married and they came to Australia. Yes thanks for these links.
Many immigrants had to change ships at Port Phillip Bay, Victoria and use Coastal Shipping to reach Sydney or Brisbane. I'll check on that for them.
Thank you Dave for the map and the translations. Garsonite, Thankyou for the link to Eric Kopittke. I can see if he knows anything.
Many immigrants took out Naturalisation, so they could purchase land others just to adopt the new country. I think my ancestors were still quite tied to their origins and especially the church. In many cases people seemed to form communities with quite close ties to each other.
So now about Adeline's parents. They are on this death Certificate.. so that sounds like the end of the trail. Odd though that that index has survived. How far back did that go. [thinking of Adeline's birth 1845.]
But all the problems with the wars etc who knows?
So now to the issue of DNA ... I have a heap of Polish matches.
Thanks all for the help and the great finds here.
Essnell
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I've just read that the "Kirchenbücher" for Schluschow were lost/destroyed.
Update: this seems to be the same unfortunate story for Neurode and Lantow ... :'(
Hi, your right on that one. I tried all the sources I know, to no avail.
What i did find was the birth record for Carl Ferdinand Martin Kopittke in Schwartow 1847
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?? Doesn't the Kopittke name appear in entry 4 as well??
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so baby Otto was left behind in Poland. I wonder who he was left with. Then he married and they came to Australia.
Otto seems to have come to Australia at least before 1903 as he's mentioned in the Electoral Rolls.
https://gw.geneanet.org/erick6?lang=en&p=otto+hermann+albert&n=kopittke (https://gw.geneanet.org/erick6?lang=en&p=otto+hermann+albert&n=kopittke) mentions that he returned to Germany in Jun 1912. Of course we already know that he got married there an returned in 1914.
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?? Doesn't the Kopittke name appear in entry 4 as well??
That's him ... Dad in Col#2, Mum in Col#3 and baby in col#4
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Birth Otto´s wife Erna Schultz 1890 in Ossecken
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?? Doesn't the Kopittke name appear in entry 4 as well??
That's him ... Dad in Col#2, Mum in Col#3 and baby in col#4
Not column... ROW.
Entry 1: Kopttike mother..... Henriette K..... child Heinrich Ferdinand
Entry 4: Kopttike father...... Something Daniel K...... child Carl Ferdinand Martin
Isn't it?? :-\
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getting back to Adeline Emilie Ottilie Wischnowski
parents: Father: Schovski Shadowski(y) Mother: Pilnie Wischovofske.
I always thought that the mothers name was very strange and unlikley.
I searched through the Ossecken church books and found a person that could fit. What do you think?
Philipine Wilhelmine Friederike Wischnowski, 26.12.1825 in Buchow
Father: Jacob Wischnowski, Schmidt(Blacksmith)
Mother: Charlotte Bohlen
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Buchow = Bychow
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Hi davecapps and everyone else,
I am really stunned! It is amazing what you people have found now and in the past.
Yes I would say that is her, Adeline's mother. Pilnie sounds like some sort of family name. it might not be be quite accurate but close enough to Philnie. so i now have Adeline's mum and her parents. Just so good thankyou.
Also the birth records for those two boys Heinrich Ferdinand and Carl Ferdinand Martin
Sorry I have been unable to post for the last 24hours. Problems with internet connections.
I am not in a city area and have to use wifi dongles, they are not working correctly.
Thank you for what you have found for me.
I shall check on everything and get back again
Essnell
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If you do come to the conclusion that Philippine Wischnowski the right person is then:
Here are two siblings
Henriette born 15 Dec 1822
and Hermann born 17 Nov 1831
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Hi Davecapps,
I am pretty certain that these are the correct people.
Thank you for keeping on looking. This was really unexpected additional information. You never know it might prove important in connecting some of these Polish matches I have. Yet to see where those go.
I really have found something I did not think possible so thanks to you and all those who have added their bit to the quest.
I have a Schadowski person in my matches so hoping that will be a connection.
Regards
Essnell.
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This might be Schovskie!
the carpenter Robert Louis August Schadowski born 17.3.1860 in Klein Perlin
resident in Chotschow
son of the deceased tailor Carl Schadowski and his wodow Philipine Wischnowsky
resident in Kerschkow
married Emilie Caroline Jach on the 26.1.1888
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Map
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Hi Davecapps,
OH my goodness... what a connection.
To me this appears to be quite a valid connection. Cannot see why it would not be the same family and part of the family I am looking at.
Schovskie was recorded as a Tailor, as father of Adeline. So that also fits besides the obvious name connections.
I know this is them but I am still haunted by this Mexico statement and I don't know who originally put that online. It sounds awfully incorrect. Especially after all that has beenpound by you and others here.
A big thank you is required and given here. I really mean that. I would not find this information alone.
Essnell
Ps forum is back up yeah!
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I have more info on Robert, Carls son and two possible brothers from Carl
If you are interested, send me your Email per PM
Dave
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It should be mentioned that there is an auto fill in function on Ancestry
So for example if I type in Halifax it could fill in Halifax Canada without me noticing when I want Halifax England
I suspect the Mexican mistake came from the town there being recognized on auto fill and the person completing not noticing
Many such mistakes occur on trees with individuals appearing to switch countries.
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Hi Brigidmac,
Thanks for the idea there. It could be anything but it is odd that more than one tree owner has copied it, or has the same weird information.
In any case this thread proves that to be incorrect. So I will ignore it.
Davecapps: Will send email.
Thankyou both.
Essnell