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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: geocmoore on Thursday 18 March 21 20:39 GMT (UK)
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Subject: How closely should US (MD 1776) and German (Zillhausen bef. 1749) records typically match for the same family? What European records might I find?
I’m trying to trace a family that immigrated from "Germany" to the "USA" in 1749 through Philadelphia, PA. The conventional wisdom provides three sets of records to match.
1) The German birth records.
2) The Immigration record (less detailed).
3) The Maryland Colonial Census of 1776, which included names and ages for all residents.
Here is a summary of the records for the five immigrants and how they are similar or changed going from source 1 to source 3.
A) Johann Martin Herre (b. 1720, Zillhausen) > Hanss Martin Herre > Martin Herry (1720)
B) Anna Maria Seßler (b. 1720, Zillhausen) > Anna Maria Sassler Herre > Mary Herry (1730)
C) Jonathan Herre (b. 1742, Zillhausen) > 1 of 3 unnamed children > Jonathan Herry (1745)
D) Simon David Herre (b. 1744, Zillhausen) > 1 of 3 unnamed children > David Herry (1750)
E) Johan Herre (b. 1748, Zillhausen) > 1 of 3 unnamed children > Martin Herry (1748) called “Martin Jr.” in many records, so he was a "John". [There was also a John Herry b. 1760 per the 1776 census, thought to be Martin's brother.]
Of interest: There is also a report of “Hans Herre” returning to his home in abt. 1765 to claim his share of an estate (100 florins; roughly $2000 today), before returning to Pennsylvania. There were legal records of claims (tax?) due on the estate. (Source: New World Immigrants, Vol. II, on Ancestry.com. I think this is from a book by Michael Tepper, 1980 citing “Einige Amerika-Auswanderer des 18. Jahrhundrets aus Wuerttemberg.” [“Some 18th century emigrants from Wuerttemberg to America.”] In Suedwestdeusche Blaettr fuer Familien und Wappen-kunde. [Southwest German leaflet for families and heraldry customers.] Stuttgart, February 1957, Series 9, No. 1, p. 442. Editor Reinhold Scholl, Stuttgart-Sillenbuch).
More specifics of individual records on request.
Questions primarily for US researchers:
a) Is this a reasonably good match for Maryland about 1776, despite the name and age differences?
b) I gather there would not be a record of Johan Martin Herre’s return trip to Europe around 1765, since he had already signed a loyalty oath?
Questions primarily for EU researchers:
c) What’s the best way to find records of this family if they stayed in Germany (or Europe) rather than immigrating to the US in 1749.
d) Would there by European records of the estate? Or the return trip? How would I find those to see if they involved Zillhausen or this Johann Martin Herre (b. 1720)?
Thank you!
George C. Moore
Likely 5x great grandson of Johann Martin Herre (b. 1720)
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Hiya George - and a warm welcome to Rootschat
firstly may I point out not all family trees are 100% correct - for instance this has Anna Maria as SASSLER - not Sessler .
secondly do you know George Moss ?? the tree owner ?? he has Johann Martin Herre siblings and also parents and one set of Grandparents
could you let us know if this familytree is correct ... a bit of luck for you
Johann had a brother named Simon David and it was also his Fathers name
https://gw.geneanet.org/gem1946?n=herre&oc=&p=johann+martin
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Anna Maria died in 1780 - and Johann re married in 1782 to Elizabeth Schultz
Johann Martins mother - https://gw.geneanet.org/gem1946?lang=en&p=lucia&n=haag
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During the recent on-line RootsTech 2021 event I discovered I have a few hundred distant cousins scattered around the USA, who are descended from ancestors that emigrated from Wurttemberg.
Has anyone found the reason so many people left Germany for the USA ?
Generally speaking I'm guessing it would likely be due to famine or religious conflict......
I would love to have knowledge of some of the social history which determined their choices.
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To MowseHowse:
Interesting question: Here is a place to start answering that question:
http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/palatines/palatine-history.shtml#:~:text=There%20were%20many%20reasons%20for,in%20the%20North%20American%20colonies.
The specific part that relates to your question is: "There were many reasons for the desire of the Palatines to emigrate to the New World: oppressive taxation, religious bickering, hunger for more and better land, the advertising of the English colonies in America and the favourable attitude of the British government toward settlement in the North American colonies. Many of the Palatines believed they were going to Pennsylvania, Carolina or one of the tropical islands."
Very Respectfully,
George.
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To: mowsehowse
Another source I have found very useful in understanding German immigration to America is The German-American Experience, By Don Heinrick Tolzmann See: https://www.worldcat.org/title/german-american-experience/oclc/699118211&referer=brief_results.
In my edition, pp. 52-57 are on the causes of immigration. (If you have a different edition, look at the first subsection in Chapter III.)
The same author has many other works on this subject.
Very Respectfully,
George Moore
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to: garstonite
Thanks for your suggestions about the naming similarities, which is an important clue.
I have not yet seen the name Simon David for the Washington County, Maryland David Herry, who I have only found in US records as David Herry (with variant spellings) in his marriage in 1778, and in censuses for 1776, 1780, 1790, 1900, 1810, 1820, 1830, and 1840. All yhose were for Washington County Maryland, or the equivalent.
But, thinking about your suggestion, I see that the following names of Herre Children from the Zillhausen records for Johan Martin Harry (son of Somin David Herre (or siblings of his wife Anna Maria Sessler) from Zillhausen do seem to match the following assumed children in the 1776 census of Elizabeth Hundred in (then) Frederick County, MD:
- Jonathan Herre => Jonathan Herry
- Simon David Herre => David Herry
- Johann Martin Herre => Martin Herry
- Jacob Herre => Jacob Herry
- Johann Herre => John Herry
- Andreas Herre => Andrew Herry
- Dotothea Sessler => Dorathea Herry (Anna Maria's Siblings taken from an ancestry.com tree
So, yes, the naming similarities are stunning.
Thank you again for this suggestion.
Very Gratefully,
George Moore
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Geocmore.
Many thanks, l will enjoy reading the links.
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I was interested to read this thread. My ancestor was a Hanovarian, born in the Kingdom of Hanover, which was ruled by Britain.
To find your ancestors' Wurttemberg baptism records you will need to know whether they were Ev. Lutheran (protestants) or Catholics, as both those religions have their own archives.
Familysearch has advice on this webpage:-
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/W%C3%BCrttemberg,_German_Empire_Church_Records
You have already noticed that the Germanic naming is that the child's personal given name is next to the surname. The other given name(s) are those of the godparents. Quite often they're relatives and/or the name of a person with great standing in the area ; e.g. who might give the child a job when it's older. I found that the mainland Europeans had a naming pattern for their children which matched that of most of the UK in olden days.
1st boy named after baby's paternal grandfather
2nd boy named after baby's maternal grandfather
3rd boy named after baby's own father
4th boy named after its father's oldest brother
1st girl named after baby's maternal grandmother
2nd girl named after baby's paternal grandmother#
3rd girl named after its own mother.
4th girl named after its mother's oldest sister
Best Wishes,
Rena
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To: Rena:
Thanks for those thoughts and suggestions.
The information about the Godparents names was especially interesting.
The Herre (Herry/Harry/Harvy) family was Evangelical Lutheran in both Wurttemberg and Maryland.
That is not surprising on the US side, given that the the more rustic western Maryland, where they were located, attracted mostly protestants, based on my experience with my ancestors and based on reading about the history of the area.
Of course, of the colonies, Maryland was the most friendly to Catholics (at least in the mid-atlantic region) as the proprietor was Catholic.
Very Respectfully,
George.
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To: mowsehowse
Another source I have found very useful in understanding German immigration to America is:
"The German-American Experience", By Don Heinrick Tolzmann
Very Respectfully,George Moore
To avoid massive postage charges, and long waiting times, does anyone in UK have a copy for sale?
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According to worldcat, The following libraries in the UK have a copy of Tolzmann's The German-American Experience:
- Oxford,
- Cambridge,
- Reading
- Manchester
I suggest contacting your local library about an inter-library loan (ILL). See: https://www.bl.uk/on-demand/ill#
Also, look at Tolzmann's other books. One of those might cover your question, and be easier to get.
Best,
George.
P.S. I just sat down a reread the section on causes of the immigration, and it is quite interesting. I guess you know there was a large immigration from the Palatinate to London around 1709, driven by two especially cold winters where wildlife and fruit trees/vines were frozen?
Another reason involved the political and social disintegration of the Holy Roman Empire, so that much of the immigration occurred in a period in which the palatinate was run by a number of little rulers who seem to have had little regard for the welfare of the common folk, but did try to control their lives in many ways. This (plus wars, especially French) seems to have lead to depopulation, and general social and economic disintegration.
I am paraphrasing here, and perhaps badly, as I am not at all an expert on this topic.
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Is Borchardt related to Borkut, or would those be of different origin? I think the Borkut's we knew might have described themselves as Ukrainian and White Russian.
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Is Borchardt related to Borkut, or would those be of different origin? I think the Borkut's we knew might have described themselves as Ukrainian and White Russian.
Totally clueless on this.
I have been handed her by someone who is determined she was the mother of my 2 x great grandfather, but hasn't shown me documentary evidence.
18C Hammerstein perhaps, and probably Jewish.
Good point to ask if the library can get hold of Tolzmann for me.....(thanks).
Libraries have been off the radar for so long, due to pandemic, I didn't think of it! :-[ Doh.....
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I often find the free online international library useful. There were about 800 results when I used the search term:- Tolzmann
https://archive.org/details/texts
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According to worldcat, The following libraries in the UK have a copy of Tolzmann's The German-American Experience:
- Oxford,
- Cambridge,
- Reading
- Manchester
I suggest contacting your local library about an inter-library loan (ILL). See: https://www.bl.uk/on-demand/ill#
Also, look at Tolzmann's other books. One of those might cover your question, and be easier to get.
Best,
George.
P.S. I just sat down a reread the section on causes of the immigration, and it is quite interesting. I guess you know there was a large immigration from the Palatinate to London around 1709, driven by two especially cold winters where wildlife and fruit trees/vines were frozen?
Another reason involved the political and social disintegration of the Holy Roman Empire, so that much of the immigration occurred in a period in which the palatinate was run by a number of little rulers who seem to have had little regard for the welfare of the common folk, but did try to control their lives in many ways. This (plus wars, especially French) seems to have lead to depopulation, and general social and economic disintegration.
I am paraphrasing here, and perhaps badly, as I am not at all an expert on this topic.
I was just reviewing various posts and....
I did try to get a Tolzmann book from the inter-library loan service, but sadly, the very helpful assistant was unsuccessful.
Also, (for interest,) the mini ice age between the 14 & 18 centuries was quite severe in the Uk too, though probably not as bad as central Europe which is always far colder winters than here.
https://londonhistorians.wordpress.com/tag/great-frost-of-1709/
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Sorry to hear that. I think i've seen some other good sources on-line. I just can't remember where.
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In pulling the thread on the original question about Johan Martin Herre, I have found that the alleged report that his with and children were named at immigration was in error, but I am still convinced (as are two "experts") that the PA/MD Herre matches the Zillhausen Herre.
1) The initial report I saw was on ancestry.com and very short.
2) This was based on an article in an American Journal which was longer, but vague on sources, except that it was based on a German Article.
3) I was able to get the German article from Heidelberg Uni. On translating it, I concluded that the American journal article was not a very faithful translation in some terms. The German article was much more literal and gave the archive file where to original material is still available.
4) I have just requested the original European file from 1765-1770 (now in the Stuttgart archives) and am looking forward to figuring out what it actually says, IF I can read the script.
But the bottom line is that it was the European document, based on a return trip by Martin Herre, that named the wife and at least enumerated the children. The German author/analyst noted that the sailing date from the deposition exactly matched the immigration of Martin Herre in 1749, so they were "certainly" the same person. In that context, certainly means almost certainly, or must have been, but not ARE the same person.