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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: M_ONeill on Monday 15 March 21 22:17 GMT (UK)
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Came across a bit of a curiosity today, a civil marriage record where the phrase 'married in the Roman Catholic Chapel of...' has had 'Roman Catholic Chapel' crossed out and replaced with 'the house of Bernard Hughes'.
The marriage was between an Arthur Crilly and a Catherine Walls on 6th August 1881. Doing a little digging shows that Catherine gave birth to a child out of wedlock just 13 days prior on 24th July! No father given, it may have been Arthur, but impossible to tell. The child did later go by the surname Crilly.
I have to say, I've not come across a marriage ceremony being conducted in someone's house before! The marriage was apparently conducted by Francis Boyle C.C., which I believe is a Catholic Curate. Would the marriage have been in the house because it was so close to the birth?
Anyone ever seen anything like that in your research? I'd be interested to hear.
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I have a parish register of the marriage of my Great Grandparents who married in Harbour Grace, Nfld. Where it mentions the place where the marriage took place it says "In the home of the Bride in the presence of a registrar" This was in the 1880s. I thought this was rather unusual as I haven't seen this before.
Carol
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A few years ago I prepared articles about the Catholic Churches in Dolgellau & Barmouth for the Welsh Wikipedia, both of these churches were established by congregations which first met, because of a paucity of numbers, in private houses. For religious meetings to be authorised in these private houses they would also need to be licenced as places of public worship. The probability is that Bernard Hughes' house would have been licenced as a place of worship where marriages could be performed, as well as being Mr Hughes' home.
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It was common in the United Sates.
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I can think of nothing nicer than to have a registrar, a couple of witnesses and the parents pop round to witness us tying the knot. It would mean avoiding unnecessary expense and the money saved could be put to better use.
Carol
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It's definitely something I haven't seen before. In this particular area all Catholic marriages tend to take place in one of the two local chapels, Lavey or Greenlough, with one or two outliers in Ballyscullion.
One interesting aspect of the civil marriage record that I forgot to mention is the two witness signatures, Bernard Crilly and his wife Bridget, are themselves witnessed and signed by 'F. Boyle' the curate. Must be an extra rule for these particular cases, I suppose.
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Pophan - Maynard: In the town of Buffalo, on the 22nd of Sept, by William Ennis, Esq., at the house of the bride's father, Mr. Nathan Pophan, of Marcellon, to Miss Alice Maynard, of Buffalo. [28 Sept. 1872 Montello Express].
I have several of these. Gg uncle William was a justice of the peace before he turned into a crook and fled to Canada.
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According to a transcript of the church record of the marriage, Arthur and Catherine were 4th and 4th consang as well (3rd cousins).
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That's very interesting Erato, I'd assume the practice might have been more common in the United States due to the much greater distances involved between places?
Can I ask where you came across the Catholic record transcript, Gaffy? I've been using FindMyPast's Irish Catholic records collection to see images, but it doesn't seem to have anything as late as 1881, at least not in the parish records.
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A transcript of the marriage record held by the church is available in the 'rootsireland' website.
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Ah, that's a shame, I stopped using them once they forced subscriptions rather than a pay-per-record model. Another subscription was just too much for me.
As for Arthur and Catherine being 3rd cousins it doesn't surprise me, it seems most of the marriages in this neck of the woods are between some kind of cousins! On Bernard Hughes death record in 1895, Catherine is the informant and she's listed as 'niece'.
I started looking up this particular line out of curiosity, as Arthur Crilly (the eldest son of Catherine) was a benefactor in the will of one of the local O'Neills in the 1950s and I was wondering if there was a connection. Haven't found any direct connection with the O'Neills, but have found some interesting local history!
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Presbyterians in Ireland occasionally married in a private house, often the bride’s home though I have also seen the Manse used. To do that they needed a special licence from the Moderator of the church (the most senior official in the Presbyterian church).
The Roman Catholic church and the Church of Ireland both normally require the ceremony to be held in church. But I have heard of seriously ill people marrying in hospital. Probably permission would be required from the bishop. This link suggests it can be done in the Catholic church (in some jurisdictions anyway), but only in exceptional cases.
https://www.foryourmarriage.org/why-does-a-catholic-wedding-have-to-take-place-in-a-church/
The parochial office might be able to tell you what the current rules are.
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Australia...
The British penal colony early February 1788... the Male convicts from the First Fleet were landed in late January 1788 under supervision of the Royal Marines. There were no Church Buildings, and the Female convicts were still on board vessels moored in the harbour. The British planners had not even funded a clergyman ..... However a C of E chap was sent and in mid February 1788 in the open air he conducted several marriage ceremonies according to CofE rites. Even today you do not need a building of any kind to hold a wedding ceremony in NSW. Some wedding ceremonies can be at the couple's home with their children cheering them along; some can be in the local park, or on a ferry, or hot air balloon, or in a school hall, or .... even in a traditional church building. But the ceremony must be conducted in accordance with the statute laws of Australia.
JM.
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"due to the much greater distances involved between places?"
Sometimes but not always. In 1904, my great aunt was married at the family home which was about a two-minute walk from the church. Maybe she was more of a free thinker than some others in the family but, at any rate, the local minister did the honors.
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There was a custom that mothers remained at home for 6 weeks after birth to prevent being kidnapped by the little people who might have wanted her to nurse one of their own babies. Human babies were also at risk of being taken and replaced with a changeling.
More mundane, she might still have been recovering from the birth.
Wedding ceremonies for mixed marriages or marriages to regularise a relationship sometimes used to be in the presbytery or sacristy instead of before the altar in church.
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There was a custom that mothers remained at home for 6 weeks after birth to prevent being kidnapped by the little people who might have wanted her to nurse one of their own babies. Human babies were also at risk of being taken and replaced with a changeling.
More mundane, she might still have been recovering from the birth.
Wedding ceremonies for mixed marriages or marriages to regularise a relationship sometimes used to be in the presbytery or sacristy instead of before the altar in church.
Yes I have heard of all of those. As well in the Anglican (Church of Ireland) church there is a ceremony called churching 'the administration or reception of a rite of the church specifically : a ceremony in some churches by which women after childbirth are received in the church with prayers, blessings, and thanksgiving'. This took place 40 days after giving birth.
It was felt, even up until quite recently, 1950s in church-going Anglicans here in NZ that at woman was best to stay home until this had taken place. I think this might also be a reason for getting married in a house rather than the church.
I think it is ironic how these customs have a foundation in good health even now. In NZ the first vaccinations on the schedule begin at 6 weeks and babies & their mothers are recommended to stay close to home until then. Also mother need time to recover and be with their babies.
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Churchings would likely have been part of the Church of England rites and forms that the New South Wales chaplains including Rev Samuel Marsden, brought to New Zealand when NZ was still administered by the NSW Governors.
JM.
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While a marriage in a private house may have been unusual by the 1880s, it was the most common location for Catholic marriages until sometime around the 1830s - after Catholic Emancipation, in any case. You need to remember that the Catholic Church was an "illegal organization" until 1828.
Older registers (1700s) often specify which house was used.
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Churchings would likely have been part of the Church of England rites and forms that the New South Wales chaplains including Rev Samuel Marsden, brought to New Zealand when NZ was still administered by the NSW Governors.
JM.
Churching is not solely a NZ Anglican ceremony. It is widespread over Catholic and Protestant and Jewish religions. All I am suggesting is that a mother, not having been churched, may have wanted the marriage ceremony to have been held in a house rather than at the church.
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Single mothers were required to confess their sin before being churched in the Anglican Church.
The most likely explanation in this case is that the woman was still recovering from the birth. There may even have been a fear that she may not recover so the wedding was a matter of urgency. One of my ancestors died after childbirth around that time. It was customary for mothers in England in 2nd half of 20thC to remain in hospital for 10 days post-birth and that was with benefit of modern health care. A traditional word for childbirth is confinement.
Baby may have arrived sooner than expected. Dad may have been working away as many Irishmen did, and was sent for when his child was born.
Did other weddings happen in the church around the same time? Another explanation could be that the church was closed for repair.
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You need to remember that the Catholic Church was an "illegal organization" until 1828.
Although there was still discrimination against Catholics in the first decades of the 19th century, Catholic churches existed legally under certain conditions.
The Catholic Emancipation Act 1829, which permitted Catholics to sit in the Westminster Parliament, and repealed the Test Act 1672 and most of the remaining penal laws, was the culmination of a series of Catholic Relief Acts beginning in 1778, followed by the 2nd Catholic Relief Act 1793 (Ireland). One measure which was not repealed by the 1829 Act was the prohibition on a Catholic priest celebrating a mixed marriage or a marriage of 2 Protestants. A priest in Ireland was arrested for that offence in the 1830's.
Marriages (Ireland) Act 1844 didn't apply to Catholic marriages.