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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: beckwar on Sunday 14 March 21 19:13 GMT (UK)
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I've got myself in a muddle and I'm struggling to figure it out! I would really appreciate some help.
I applied for my grandfather's military record years ago because i wanted to start tracing my Martin line back yet the family knew very little about him other than that he was in the RAF in ww2 and that his fathers name was Walter Martin (engineer) from his marriage cert to my Gran, he was apparently a bachelor when he married. When i got his RAF record it had his birthday down as 9th sept 1898 and said he'd been born in London, my uncle had thought he was born in India and come into the UK when he was around 2 years old and educated in Scotland! It also showed that he had been awarded the Military medal in WW1, the London gazette had the award noted and gave his hometown as Leytonstone. I located a family on the 1911 census with a Charles Theodore Martin in Leytonstone but mother was a widow so went back to 1901 census and found the family and the father was a Walter, Bingo! I thought, even though the census gave estimated year of birth as 1895, I know ages can often be out. I applied for the birth certificate and the D.O.B came back as 10th Sept 1895, yes a little off but I still thought I had the right family. I've been researching these Martins for years. Had my DNA done and found links to the offspring of the sisters of Charles Theodore Martin of the 1911 Leytonstone family.
I posted on here a while back about my grandfather when I came across a Charles Theodore Martin of the 1939 register with a birth date of 10th sept 1895. I thought it must be my grandfather as i couldn't see any other Charles Theodore on the register, but he was listed with an Emily Elizabeth Martin! I got their marriage cert and it showed that his fathers name was Walter, an engineer. It also showed that he was a widower! Marriage took place in 1938 and yet he married my Gran in 1941! I then started thinking he was a bigamist! Someone on here also pointed out an article in the newspaper archive from 1934 about a Charles Theodore Martin who won the military medal who had been committing crimes under various aliases! A double whammy! The newspaper article notes that he had lost his wife not long after marrying her. I went looking for the marriage to the wife that came before Emily Elizabeth. Found a marriage for a Charles Theodore Martin to an Agnes Dorothy Massey in 1922 Kent. The father's name was again Walter who was an engineer, this time listed as a bachelor. Agnes Dorothy Martin passed away in 1934 in Reading so that would be 12 years after marriage not quite what the article had suggested but then who can trust what a con man came out with!!
I then turned my attention to Emily Elizabeth to see what had happened to her, got her death cert in. She passed away in 1967 Surrey, she was listed as a widow of Charles Theodore Martin. My grandfather passed away in 1959. I got to thinking did she know he was a bigamist or had she presumed he had died in ww2 when the war finished and he didn't return to her?!
I then noticed a death of a Charles Theodore Martin in Windsor 1954, applied for this and it is the death cert for the Charles Theodore Martin who was married to Emily Elizabeth! So I have clearly been wrong, my Grandfather was not the man who married Agnes and then Emily, he was not a bigamist. But whose birth cert have i got? Whose family is the one in Leytonstone 1911 that i have been researching? I can't see any trace of another birth of a Charles Theodore from around this time, it's actually quite a rare name with the Theodore in the middle.
I have to be related to the Leytonstone family as i have DNA connections to other family members. However all this made me go back and look at the connections. I have what I believe is a 2nd cousin but they only share 37 cM with me! Another relation from the family thought to be a second cousin comes in sharing 121 cM again not very high and perhaps not enough to be a 2nd cousin?
I'm so confused by it all!
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I am finding it quite confusing to work through.
We can’t give much detail re 1939 but I can see:
Charles Theodore Martin with the 1895 date and a wife Emily Elizabeth in Hampshire.
Charles T Martin - 1902 in Kent with a wife Emily E. and a child.
There is a marriage 1926 - Milton, Kent
Charles T Martin and Emily E Mount
Death 1983 Swale, Kent
Emily Elizabeth Martin d.o.b 27th Feb 1903
Do occupations include death certificates help?
What about the death informants?
Is the one you thought was your relative the one in Hampshire?
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Heywood, thanks for taking the time to read through it all!
Emily Elizabeth Mount to Charles t Martin isn't connected. That Charles has Thomas as middle name.
The marriage was to an Emily Elizabeth smith which took place in 1938, Hendon. Emily died in 1967, Surrey, informant of her death was her brother in law Sidney Gosney. On her death cert her husband Charles Theodore Martin was a gentleman's outfitter, same occupation on their marriage cert and on the death cert of Charles Theodore who died in 1954, Windsor. The Charles who married Agnes Dorothy Massey also was gentleman's outfitter on marriage cert and he was informant on Agnes's death cert. I am pretty sure the same Charles Martin married these two woman, appears on the 1939 reg in Hampshire with birth date of 10.09.1895 and dies in 1954. I just dont know if he is the one belonging to the Leytonstone family and who I have the birth cert for.
If this Charles isn't from that family then where is his birth cert and where is he on 1901 and 1911 census?
I'm sorry for my attempt at trying to explain it all, there's so many bits and pieces I wasn't sure what to put in. It's all jumbled in my head!
I want to be sure that the Leytonstone family is my grandfather's and not this other Charles's family but don't know how I can be sure? I can only find one birth record and one entry on 1901, 1911 census and 1939 reg for a Charles Theodore Martin. Yet there has to be two of them as there are two deaths.
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Other thread to save duplication
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=811597.msg6724076#msg6724076
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This is a ramble of thoughts.
The fact the date of birth on the cert you have matches exactly the one who died in 1954 and also the 1939, makes me think that is whose birth cert you have.
So your CTM must be someone else. Probably related in someway to the other one?
How do you know the war record you have is your grandfather’s and not the other CTM?
I know there is the 1934 newspaper report of his crimes and alias that mentions the M Medal, but if he was related to Charles in some way (thus giving you the DNA connection) he might know those details and state them to improve his chances at that hearing.
Is it possible that the 1954 death CTM is the one who won the MM and then the other man enlisted in WW2 under the same name and the two records were combined?
So perhaps he really was James Douglas Wilson (or even another name) but once having said he was Charles Theodore he stuck with it.
Added...the 1934 case was 36 matches an 1898 birth
The 1959 death which is him (matches gazette bankruptcy etc 1949) was 60 Again late 1899/1899
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Mckha489,
Thank you, what you say makes a lot of sense. It did cross my mind that my CTM might have taken on someone else's identity, I didn't know if that was all a bit far fetched though? If there was a simpler more normal explanation?
The ww2 record is definitely his, it's got my gran as next of kin and it mentions receiving a letter from her to notify them of CTM's death when he passed away. It has notes on the Ww1 service but I was unable to get a full Ww1 service record, I think it must have been destroyed. Nothing negative mentioned regarding Ww1 service and that's when the military medal was awarded, my dad always wondered what happened to the medal because he didn't have it, he didn't talk about it. Then the ww2 record has several naughty things, bouncing cheques, stealing petrol and car parts, using military vehicles for his personal use, he got cashiered from the RAF in the end. He told my dad all sorts of things and I don't know if any of it is true. He said he was a twin! Said he was from a Quaker family and that they had disowned him when he signed up to the war.
I haven't tried looking into James Douglas Wilson, I'll give that a go, i currently don't have the Wilson name in my tree. My CTM has to be related to the Leytonstone family because my DNA shows this but not sure how that level of shared DNA would relate me to that family? That would be useful to know, would give me a hint where to look.
I'm so frustrated by it all, I've enjoyed looking into it over the years but this latest finding has just annoyed me! Now I just want to know the truth but increasingly feels like I will be forever guessing.
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You only have to hang about on Rootschat for a while to start thinking that all men and some women had another identity!
the 1921 census might help you.
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Perhaps you need to sit down and spread out the certificates that you have and compare them for things that are the same and what is different.
There appears to be only one birth for a Charles Theodore Martin between 1885 and 1900 which is this one:-
MARTIN, CHARLES THEODORE REYNOLDS
GRO Reference: 1895 D Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 183
1901 census with Walter as a father
78, Tavistock Road, West Ham, London & Essex
Parents Walter and Eva with siblings Winifred (1889), Alan (1890), Marjorie (1893) and Frederick (1898). Walter's occupation is given as Lamp Maker.
Registration district West Ham
Archive reference RG13
Piece number 1567
Folio 22
Page 35
I'll see what the 1911 census says.
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You only have to hang about on Rootschat for a while to start thinking that all men and some women had another identity!
the 1921 census might help you.
So what I'm thinking isn't that far fetched then. Yes I'm hoping 1921 will help and not cause me even more confusion! Thanks for your input
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Looks like father Walter died in 1906
Deaths Dec 1906
Martin Walter 45 W. Ham 4a 161
The 1911 census has Eva as a widow living at 22 Carlton Road Leytonstone Essex, Low Leyton, London & Essex
She has all five of her children living with her. Charles is down as a furnisher's apprentice.
Registration district West Ham
Registration district number 188
Sub-district North Leyton
Sub-district number 9
Enumeration district number 38
Series RG14
Piece number 9671
Schedule 289
Census reference RG14PN9671 RG78PN513B RD188 SD9 ED38 SN289
RG 78 piece number 513
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Thanks girl guide,
Yes the two census entries you've posted are for the family that I have been researching. The birth for CTM you have listed is the one I got the cert for and shows mother Eva Reynolds and father Walter Martin, Walter did die in 1906.
The siblings of CTM, I have found their marriages and descendants. I have 121 cM shared with Winifred Martin's grandson and 37 cM shared with Marjorie Martin's grandson. Older brother Alan had one daughter and she is still living! I wrote to her about the family, she was able to give some Info but her parents separated when she was only five and she lost all contact with the Martin's from that point. Younger brother Frederick, I only recently discovered that he married his cousin, Enid Olive Ray in Willesden 1928. Enid died in 1931. I have not managed to find out what happened to Frederick after this.
Enid had a brother Kenneth Charles Ray born 1902, I have not managed to trace what happened to him after the 1911 census, their father Charles Samuel Millington Ray died in 1905. Don't know what happened to their mother Amelia Ray nee Martin.
I believe the amount of DNA I share with Marjorie and Winifred's descendants would indicate they were likely to be my 3rd cousins? So my grandfather is likely to be a 1st cousin of Alan, Winifred, Marjorie, Charles & Frederick? Can someone let me know if my thinking is right.
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Could this be Fred's second marriage?
Marriages Jun 1935
Collier Thurza J Martin Willesden 3a 878
Martin Frederic G Collier Willesden 3a 878
I noticed on the birth registration that there is no k for Frederic.
MARTIN, FREDERIC GEORGE REYNOLDS
GRO Reference: 1898 M Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 227
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Could this be Fred's second marriage?
Marriages Jun 1935
Collier Thurza J Martin Willesden 3a 878
Martin Frederic G Collier Willesden 3a 878
I noticed on the birth registration that there is no k for Frederic.
MARTIN, FREDERIC GEORGE REYNOLDS
GRO Reference: 1898 M Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 227
I have the birth cert, dob 29th Jan 1898.
I also saw that marriage and thought it could be his with the spelling of Frederic. I applied for it but it's not him. The Frederic on the cert is 24, a bachelor, occupation attendant and father's name is also Frederic George Martin, a mechanic who is alive at the time of the marriage.
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Younger brother Frederick, I only recently discovered that he married his cousin, Enid Olive Ray in Willesden 1928. Enid died in 1931. I have not managed to find out what happened to Frederick after this.
The thing that strikes me about that is that he married and his wife died not long after, as per James Douglas Wilson alias CTM.
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Younger brother Frederick, I only recently discovered that he married his cousin, Enid Olive Ray in Willesden 1928. Enid died in 1931. I have not managed to find out what happened to Frederick after this.
The thing that strikes me about that is that he married and his wife died not long after, as per James Douglas Wilson alias CTM.
Yes it does fit doesn't it. But if Frederic was my grandfather then I would still show as being more closely connect to Winifred's and Marjorie's grandsons than I do?
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It is possible that Walter was not his father, a NPE, which would explain less DNA to the matches than expected. Do you connect to any other Martins in Walter’s generation or earlier?
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It is possible that Walter was not his father, a NPE, which would explain less DNA to the matches than expected. Do you connect to any other Martins in Walter’s generation or earlier?
I share 26.7 cM with the great grandson of one of Walter's sister's and 22 cM with the 3x great grand daughter of one of his brother's. I have also worked out how I connect to three other DNA matches that descend from Walter's father's siblings. So plenty of connections to the Martin's, I just need to confirm where I fit in.
I am looking into more DNA connections at the moment hoping it helps. I have one that shows 124 cM to me and 207.4 to my half brother, does that make them more likely to be a 2nd cousin?
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It is possible that Walter was not his father, a NPE, which would explain less DNA to the matches than expected. Do you connect to any other Martins in Walter’s generation or earlier?
I share 26.7 cM with the great grandson of one of Walter's sister's and 22 cM with the 3x great grand daughter of one of his brother's. I have also worked out how I connect to three other DNA matches that descend from Walter's father's siblings. So plenty of connections to the Martin's, I just need to confirm where I fit in.
I am looking into more DNA connections at the moment hoping it helps. I have one that shows 124 cM to me and 207.4 to my half brother, does that make them more likely to be a 2nd cousin?
There seems no doubt you are connected to the Martins, and there is always a chance that a brother or cousin fathered Charles. There can be a wide range of how much DNA is passed down, I share 68 CM with a 3rd cousin but my brother (full) shares 169.
I am no expert on the DNA side of things, I find it confusing. A couple of years after my test, and my brother’s, I managed to narrow my grandfather down to three brothers, and for a great grandfather, have not been able to figure out who his father was.
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There seems no doubt you are connected to the Martins, and there is always a chance that a brother or cousin fathered Charles. There can be a wide range of how much DNA is passed down, I share 68 CM with a 3rd cousin but my brother (full) shares 169.
I am no expert on the DNA side of things, I find it confusing. A couple of years after my test, and my brother’s, I managed to narrow my grandfather down to three brothers, and for a great grandfather, have not been able to figure out who his father was.
I have also noticed big differences in the amount of DNA i share with matches compared to what my brother shares with them. Like you say it is confusing.
Just yesterday another Martin descendant got in touch with me so that's another line I'll be able to build up a picture of and hopefully rule in or out as being my direct line.
I also noticed another DNA match yesterday and when I googled their name posts on this forum came up! One really pricked my interest as they were discussing a relative born 10th sept but in 1911 who was in the RAF, born in India and had a twin brother which is all information that my grandfather had told his son's!! I've dropped the person a message but no reply as yet. They also have a public tree on ancestry but I don't see any Martin's in it. Her ancestors are in East Dereham, Norfolk 5 mins from where my Martin's were on the 1871 census. So another possibility here.
Hopefully get to the bottom of it eventually. Good luck to you with your search.
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Good luck with your research, too. Am confident you will eventually work it out.