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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: marklogan on Sunday 14 March 21 18:12 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I'm hoping someone might have the time to help answer my query. A good few years ago I done a few photograph restorations on here so was hoping someone may be able to return the favour :)
My dad doesn't know much about his family history so I've started looking into it for him but not sure where to turn next, in particular with one relative.
I opened an Ancestry account, used what I knew, used the hints available, rejected ones that weren't applicable etc. I'm not sure what the next steps normally are. Should I be looking at different sites?
In particular I'm stuck with my great grandad, Charles. I have a record of him in the 1911 census living in Gateshead and employed as a Cooper. The relatives match up and I think I have found him as a child in the earlier census records in Scotland. However he seems to vanish.
I've searched grave records etc and nothing. There is a 1919 death record that I've seen but not sure if it's him. A lot of his ancestors seem to be Scottish and Ancestry just seem to have transcripts of census records. Do I have to use the Scotlandspeople website to access the real ones?
I'm not looking for answers necessarily, just a bit of advice on how to proceed. Thanks for your time.
Regards
Mark Logan
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SP is the website for parish records etc in Scotland.. you need to look at primary records so birth/marriage/death certificates, baptism/marriage/burial parish records..census are secondary records, they are useful but do not have the primary information you need
" I think I have found him as a child in the earlier census records in Scotland." so check for baptism parish records in that area where he lived and then purchase the birth certificate which will prove his parents
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I've found what I assume is Charles in the 1911 living at 5 Watson St Jarrow, Jarrow, Durham
Wife Elizabeth, children James, Alexander and Charles. Elizabeth's maiden name appears to be Rose.
I looked up the marriage in Scotland's People:-
Married on 28th July 1899 Holy Trinity Church, Stirling - Charles Logan age 26, cooper and Elizabeth Rose age 26, mill worker.
His parents are Alexander Logan and Mary Ann Logan nee Rae.
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This seems to be Charles's birth record on Family Search
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ5D-7B7
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Wow, I didn't expect such a quick response and with such thorough information. Everything you've put forward are the relatives that I had provisionally put in my tree but without having those marriage records etc, I couldn't be certain.
Thank you very much for your help
Mark
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Actually, it's interesting that you say his father was Alexander as I have Andrew married to Mary Ann Rae. I've got some more digging to do by the look of it :)
Thanks
Mark
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My deepest apologies. His father is ANDREW. Don't know why I put Alexander ::) A moment of forgetfulness probably.
In the birth record I gave you from Family Search his dad is Andrew as well.
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If you track your Logans to Wigtownshire, give me a holler.
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My deepest apologies. His father is ANDREW. Don't know why I put Alexander ::) A moment of forgetfulness probably.
In the birth record I gave you from Family Search his dad is Andrew as well.
Not a problem. Thanks for clarifying. It has really helped
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She has quite a grand name...
Unfortunately the marriage doc is from 1853 ... and not after 1855 where they have more parental info. You can get lucky with a pre-1855 wedding doc in that regard but odds are it will not mention parents.
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There are some clues on their wedding doc from 1853 but no parents are listed.
Andrew Logan -combmaker of Garden Nook Close , Upper Donburn marries Mary Ann Knight Erskine Rae of 115 Close Wayend. Both of the parish of Old Machar. Witnesses: James Sheriffs and William Williamson.
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Looking at the 1851 census we see combmaker Andrew Logan , single , living with his parents George and Margaret Logan and his siblings.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5902685ae9379091b1d0c0c6/andrew-logan-1851-aberdeenshire-old-machar-1829-?locale=en
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The wedding doc lead to the combmaking clue which helped identify his parents in the census. Based on what's in the census there is one George Logan marrying a Margaret in Old Machar in the proper time period.
GEORGE LOGAN
MARGARET DONALD/
16/10/1826
Old Machar
It's quite possible it is not the correct George Logan of Old Machar... but I am quite confident that it is and will keep digging.
Andrew Logan's birth is on SP site as follows:
ANDREW LOGAN
GEORGE LOGAN/MARGARET DONALD
M
30/08/1828
168/A
220 54
Aberdeen
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In 1861 Andrew Logan and family lived at 130 Chapel Street , Old Machar
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59026beee9379091b1df86ea/mary-ann-logan-1861-aberdeenshire-old-machar-1831-?locale=en
George and Margaret Logan lived at Upper Denburn in 1861
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59026be2e9379091b1df557e/george-logan-1861-aberdeenshire-old-machar-1797-?locale=en
George Logan does not appear in 1871 census from what I can see which would indicate death occurred between 1861 and 1871.
Looking at deaths in Old Machar between those dates I see one that fits the bill...
GEORGE LOGAN
68
Mother's maiden name:
COWIE
1864
168/2 527
Old Machar Aberdeen Burgh
Census said George Logan was born very similar year (1796). I believe this is him but will double check.
Margaret Donald passed away in 1884 at age 78 in Old Machar.
The document is on Scotland's site as shown above... even without buying it there is a clue:
MARGARET DONALD
78
Mother's maiden name:
GILLAN
1884
168/2 945
Old Machar
Way I do it is ... do the math 1885 minus 78 which gives you 1805 or 1806. Go and search that for a Margaret Donald and come up blank. Take away the Margaret part and you see 3 of her siblings. Some records are missing, non-existent or hidden because of butchered spelling.
JOHN DONALD
Parents:
DAVID DONALD/RACHEL GILLAN
M
26/07/1809
168/B
50 295
Old Machar
There are two more at least similar to above but I won't bore you by pasting them here. At any rate now we know the parents of Margaret Donald are David Donald and Rachel Gillan...
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Regarding Mary Ann knight Erskine Rae :o ...
What I would is go to the free census site and start with something simple like Mary Rae. We know she was born around 1830 as a guess based on her marriage in 1853 so we put between 1828-1835 in the birth column,
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a1405f6f4040b9d6eeac892/mary-anne-rae-1841-aberdeenshire-old-machar-1831-?locale=en
We know she's in Aberdeenshire specifically Old Machar ....so we scan for that. Now we find her , her parents and siblings and glean clues.
So then we break it down:
Alexander Rae -Journeyman Machine Maker lives with wife Janet (note OUC which in this case means not from Aberdeenshire) and children. All living at Woodside.
Mary Ann Rae and Andrew Logan have a son Alexander born 16 Nov 1855 ...so that adds credence.
Next i'd nip back to SP site and plug in Alexander Rae under old parish marriages.... change it to search Old Machar and add spouses name Janet:
ALEXANDER RAE
JANET MCDONALD/
17/07/1824
168/B
160 137
Old Machar
Now you know Janet Rae's maiden-name (though this is preliminary and needs judicious scrutinizing)
To find either of the parents birth I would start by minusing 20-35 years off the date of the wedding and look on SP site set first for Aberdeenshire. Then watch for Old Machar but they could also be close by. Some names are harder to find because they are so common.
His census age said 35 in 1841 so born about 1806. This is just a guide as census ages are often wrong, sometimes badly. So I'd start looking for Alexander Rae in and around 1805/1806. You can search between two ,so I'd set this back a bit on each side ... 1800-1810 (ten year blocks are good). There we see one in Old Machar...
ALEXANDER RAE
father:
JOHN RAE/
M
09/01/1803
168/B
110 244
Old Machar
Then comes the fun part of cross-checking everything.
Hope this was somewhat helpful!
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We catch up to David Donald and Rachel Gillan in 1841 and see they live at #8 Ann St. Old Machar.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a140598f4040b9d6eea58dd/david-donald-1841-aberdeenshire-old-machar-1776-?locale=en
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Blimey I've just had a quick glance on my dinner break at work and never expected the thread to keep going. Thank you all so much. I'll take a proper look when I get in tonight and hopefully have a gold mine of info to add to my tree.
You are all very kind to take the time to look into it in such depth for me. Thank you
Mark
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Regarding Janet McDonald who married Alexander Rae...
The census says she was not born in the county of Aberdeenshire ...OUC. So the two entries from there we will set aside for now. One is even in Old Machar but for now we will discard them and search outside Aberdeenshire. With a surname like McDonald it will be near impossible to pick one from the 4 pages that show up on SP site search.
Normally I'd go to the next census up...in this case 1851 and search for them. I'm having a hard time finding either just yet in 1851 (haven't given up) which usually tells me either they moved or they passed away in between.
Sometimes the free census site shared does not have the records. You go to scotland's-people site and search their census and many more often pop up. Then you either do slick deductive detective work or start hitting the "buy" button to reveal their contents.
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Regarding Rachel "Gillan" ... I could not find her under that spelling but instead under similar:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?q.givenName=rachel&q.surname=gellan&q.birthLikePlace=aberdeenshire&count=20&offset=0&m.defaultFacets=on&m.queryRequireDefault=on&m.facetNestCollectionInCategory=on
Rachel Gellan
Christening 9 Aug 1775
Old Machar
Parents: John Gellan and Margaret Duguid
David Donald
Christened: 14 Jan 1774
at: St Nicholas, Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire, Scotland, United Kingdom
Parents: Andrew Donald and Mary Sutherland
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?q.givenName=david&q.surname=donald&q.birthLikePlace=aberdeenshire&q.motherSurname=sutherland&count=20&offset=0&m.defaultFacets=on&m.queryRequireDefault=on&m.facetNestCollectionInCategory=on
You can see how the family names are passed down.
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Marriage of David Donald and Rachel Gellan as found by searching SP site for Rachel Gellan under old marriages. (there are only 2).
RACHEL GELLAN
DAVID DONALD/
16/11/1800
168/B
80 258
Old Machar
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Marriage of David Donald's parents from SP:
ANDREW DONALD
MARY SUTHERLAND/
16/11/1772
168/A
130 564
Aberdeen
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In 1861 David Donald was an agricultural labourer... living with Rachel Gellan at 8 Ann Street , Old Machar.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a140598f4040b9d6eea58df/rachel-donald-1841-aberdeenshire-old-machar-1776-?locale=en
By 1871 it appears that David Donald has passed away and widow Rachel Gellan lives at 3 Grant st, Woodside, Old Machar.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59027040e9379091b1f1943d/rachel-donald-1871-aberdeenshire-old-machar-1801-?locale=en
I don't see Rachel Gellan in the 1881 census and assume she passed between 1871 and 1881.
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Rachel Gellan's parents John and Margaret Duguid's marriage found on SP by searching their names in old marriage field:
MARGARET DUGUID
JOHN GELLAN/
04/11/1762
168/B
70 228
Old Machar
There are 4 possible Margaret Duguid's born 20-30 years before their marriage. They all live close by so it will take some time to dig further on the Duguid branch.
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Were you also interested in tracing Charles Logan's wife's tree?
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Here's a rough start to get you going...
I added a marriage of Alexander Rae's father John Rae and Janet Gray
JOHN RAE
JANET GRAY/
05/12/1802
227/
20 184
New Machar
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I'm really grateful for you all taking the time to do this. I've been sat populating my tree tonight with some of this information and it's amazing how much time you spend as you end up looking into where they lived, what church they got married in etc just to get a feel for where they lived and what it was like.
I think the hardest thing as a beginner using Ancestry is you're excited trying to get your tree built up but to be objective and having to ignore the 'hints' sometimes and not following other peoples trees. I'm certain some people have done it wrong on certain lines where I think dates are incorrect and can't match up. For example I've seen people put George Logan's father down as William Logan and that George was born in 1875 which can't be possible.
I hadn't even came across sites like FreeCEN until you replied so that has came in useful too. The most recent entries that you have all supplied about the Donald's etc is not information I had before. I only got to a skeleton amount of info about the previous generations.
Again thank you all so much
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Elizabeth Rose's parents are as follow:
Father: George Rose -Travelling Showman (wow)
Mother: Mary Ann (unknown yet) Rose -millworker
Here is the wedding document that has the clues you need:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ldTnMMar13zbC1UtXcSk4TJHlMGjSPnS/view?usp=sharing
If you go to SP site and type in George Rose and then look at the free LDS 1881 census entries you see that George Rose was born in England while his wife Mary Ann was born in Scotland. I typed in travelling showman as occupation and it popped right up.The girl listed as Elizabeth Rose could either be your grandmother and an error was made or it really is a grandaughter of same name.
Here is a screenshot of the census that lists where there are from etc...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VJJyPCmbbAAvWkqzufwIqqROrybK-ZCV/view?usp=sharing
Now you know George Rose was born Manchester England and Mary Ann at Montrose Scotland...that will come in handy. Finding their marriage should not be to hard...
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Regarding Andrew Logan's occupation ???
When you have something like that that you cannot decipher ... you can always head over to Rootschat's hand-writing experts! They are an amazing and talented group of people over there!
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/handwriting-deciphering-recognition/
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The surname of Mary Ann looked like Milner but I couldn't find anything to match?
The closest I could come up with was with surname Clark but the other names seem very coincidental, not wishing to put anyone off track!
Birth...https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYGR-F2N
Marriage...ROSE GEORGE CLARK / MARY ANN 1860 - 312/ 98 Montrose
Annie
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From Freebmd site
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Marriages Jun 1843 (>99%)
ROSE George Chorlton 20 120
22 May 1843 Eccles, Lancashire, England
This I believe is the correct wedding of George Rose
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I
believe know this to be Mary Ann Milner's death cert on SP.
MARY ANN
MILNER
69
1899
490/ 136
Stirling
If you search that death on SP site and purchase the document as I did the earlier ones here you will likely defintely see Mary ann Milner's parents.
The reason I can guarantee this is her is if you search deaths on SP site for Mary Ann Rose instead of Milner , same year:
MARY ANN
ROSE
69
1899
490/ 136
Stirling
Become a member of Scotland'd People site and then go to this link , purchase the document and enjoy 2 brand new grandparents!
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?search_type=people&dl_cat=statutory&dl_rec=statutory-deaths&surname=milner&surname_so=exact&forename=mary%20ann&forename_so=starts&other_surname_so=exact&mmsurname_so=exact&birth_year_range=1&record_type=stat_deaths
Follow that up with getting this doc of your grandpa George Rose's passing... which of course will gain you another 2 another new grandparents.
GEORGE
ROSE
62
1882
490/ 242
Stirling
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?search_type=people&dl_cat=statutory&dl_rec=statutory-deaths&surname=rose&surname_so=exact&forename=george&forename_so=starts&other_surname_so=exact&mmsurname_so=exact&birth_year_range=1&rd_real_name%5B0%5D=STIRLING&rd_display_name%5B0%5D=STIRLING_STIRLING&rdno%5B0%5D=STIRLING&record_type=stat_deaths
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What I want to know out of this whole thread...
What exactly is showman George Rose doing in this travelling show?
Anyhow Mark ... hope this all puts a small crack in the brick-wall you had... most of it you already knew but maybe some of the latter stuff might help with your tree.
I don't have any paid subscriptions. Just used SP site, FreeCen , FreeBMD, familysearch and google thus far here. The "other" site almost always leads me astray unless i'm 100% on my game.
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In my amateur opinion I believe this to be Mary Ann Milner's birth and alt-surname spelling..
MARY
MILNE
Parents:
DAVID MILNE/ELIZA LEIGHTON
F
18/03/1830
312/
100 195
Montrose
Time will tell when Mark gets those previously mentioned SP docs...if he wants to.
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Again, thank you so much. It is more information than I ever expected. The quest to find out what George Rose was doing in the travelling show starts now :)
Before that thought I'm going to look into all of this information you've provided and ensure I've got documents to back all of the links up.
The interesting thing on that marriage document for Elizabeth Rose you provided is that George Rose is listed as the father (deceased) of Elizabeth Rose. On the Freecen document though it lists Elizabeth as the granddaughter. I have her birth record as being the daughter of Harriet whom I presumed when I saw the Freecen screenshot that she had died at the time of that record. If she didn't know who her father was, would it be normal practice to list her grandad as the father on the marriage certificate?
...unless I've got myself in a bit of a tangle with it all
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Yes , censuses can have wrong information, wrong dates , flipped info for two people etc
Not sure in that case what's happening.
I think before George Rose started doing his Travelling Show....before he moved to Stirling Scotland... he was a Joiner in 1871.
Found through FreeCen:
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5902f993e9379091b11822f6/george-rose-1871-durham-stockton-1821-?locale=en
Some good clues to glean. Based on the names I believe this to be the same family. Would you agree?
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The Joiner part made me think..hmm maybe there are 2 George Rose's from Manchester of about the same age with wife Mary Ann and daughter Harriet.
Unless George was doing Joinery before his travelling show...not a stretch. It should say wife from Montrose Scotland not Sheffield though so that throws flags.
I checked SP site under 1871 census Montrose and there was a pile of them...even a George Rose living with a Mary Ann and I got all excited. Turns out it was a different George Rose. Not the one were looking for.
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Has George & Mary Ann been found on 1851 & 1861 to see what his occ. was & what occ. is on baptisms (sometimes) or birth certs. for children along the way?
His occ. on marriage too.
Annie
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I see it all on the 'other site there that starts with an A
..let my subs slip and found that helped me learn to search harder.
One could search George Rose 1820 , spouse Mary Ann Milner and have at it with the spoonfeeding... and that is awesome for sure but I have found many...many trees with glaring errors. In this case though it does line the censuses up bang, bang, bang.
Of course same thing can be done almost as well for for on the site that starts with an F ::)
Well after spending an hour looking I retract my last sentence. Whereas it is all laying at the other $ite for the taking.
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Here are the kids of I can find with father's name Rose , Mother's name Milner (or similar)
ROSE, WILLIAM MILLINER
GRO Reference: 1841 S Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 311
Since George and Mary Ann Milner married in 1843 I'm not sure what to make of the above one.
"Marriage
22 May 1843 • St Marys, Eccles, Lancashire, England
George Rose, a bachelor, Baker, father, William Rose, a Weaver, married Mary Ann Milner, spinster, father William Milner, a Moulder. George & Mary were both living at Pendleton."
Add baking to George Rose's talents?
Here are the boys listed on GRO:
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
ROSE, GEORGE MILNER
GRO Reference: 1843 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 20 Page 588
ROSE, JAMES MILNER
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in BURY LANCASHIRE Volume 21 Page 373
Girls:
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
ROSE, SELINA MILNER
GRO Reference: 1844 M Quarter in ROCHDALE Volume 21 Page 725
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
ROSE, MARY MILNER
GRO Reference: 1847 D Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 20 Page 572
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
ROSE, JANE MILNER
GRO Reference: 1853 S Quarter in PRESTON Volume 08E Page 420
ROSE, ELIZABETH ANN MILNER
GRO Reference: 1857 J Quarter in PRESTON Volume 08E Page 468
ROSE, HARRIET MILNER
GRO Reference: 1855 S Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 424
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
ROSE, ANN TERESA MILNER
GRO Reference: 1858 D Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 53
ROSE, CLARA MILNER
GRO Reference: 1860 S Quarter in BRADFORD AND NORTH BIERLEY
A bit tedious to search the GRO manually like that but it produces results.
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"A bit tedious to search the GRO manually like that but it produces results."
Isn't it just when you're so used to the ease of SP.
Annie
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Yes indeed SP site has us spoiled...
You can go to SP and under census 1881 LDS free just type "travelling showman" under occupation and nothing else... Quite a few pop up. Including George Rose and Mary Ann Milner... but also what looks to be George's brother ...also listed Rose (William Roseand wife Jessie).
They both live at:
Dwelling: Callander Riggs Caravan
William ROSE
1881
M
41
308380
Dwelling: Callander Riggs Caravan
Falkirk, Stirling, Scotland
Liverpool
Just another crumb of a clue...
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I wouldn't be surprised if George's parents were Scottish as Rose is a common name here.
I also noted Brechin which is known for 'Travellers' which reminded me of 2 books I've read...
The yellow on the broom & Red rowans and wild honey, both by Betsy White (nee Townsley)
Annie
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I think you are right! I checked and plenty of Roses in Montrose alone...
Even a couple George Roses ...neither of which ended up being the Showman.
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Here are a couple supporting documents...
Birth of daughter Harriet Rose 1855 at Prestcott
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tyieLbZlltdQWXS2b1uJw-iOX_RM-LtQ/view?usp=sharing
Death of daughter Sarah Ann Rose/Pinder in 1933 (major clue about what kind of showman George was!!!)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MrNsmmX6PA39JVfKbX3eBY3od1UaXw5K/view?usp=sharing
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On that last document, do you think it says Figure Showman?
I traced Sarah Ann's marriage last night and the Pinder family seems to have quite a large travelling circus that numerous websites cover. It's fascinating to look at the old photographs from that period from the circus.
I'm just on my lunch break at work and glancing through quickly whilst I have ten minutes but will look properly again tonight.
Thanks again
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Pretty wild stuff! I wonder if it was wax figures that George Rose travelled around with? Anyhow I deduced that the William Rose mentioned in the 1881 Scotland census as living same location as George ...is his son William. Census said 41 ears old in 1881 so 1840/41 birth.
Found on the GRO:
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
ROSE, WILLIAM MILLINER
GRO Reference: 1841 S Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 311
Also here is George Roses death cert from 1882:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17VeoyHmlInT_5UC8PSNqLIgrUdmejqrD/view?usp=sharing
Unfortunately as you see the middle entry only, George's entry is botched bad with poor handwriting and bad ink...possibly a hair across later... When you have docs like that and you cannot decipher what it says then its time to post at Rootschat's handwriting deciphering department.
So I did that. What we know so far is George Rose's father is William Rose. His occupation is still unknown (take a stab at it). Waiting for sage advice from the handwriting experts. George' mother I would guess says "Jane"...but I'm no expert and am waiting for word. Her maiden name is crossed out/unknown.
I searched Liverpool/Manchester/Lancashire business directories late into the night trying to find William Rose and perhaps his occupation. No luck so far. I even checked some the year of birth of George in Manchester but did not see William as of yet.
When the handwriting experts give a verdict I will report back.
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Nabbed from other peoples profiles of George Rose, from cenus. (all end at William Rose and unkown wife)
George Rose - Jack of all trades
Residence
1841 • Manchester, Lancashire, England
Miller Street, Manchester. George Rose, a Gilder, boarding with others.
Residence
1851 • Wuerdle and Wardle, Lancashire, England
43 Blacklane End, Wuerdle. Lodging with the Law family, George, a Whip Maker, livng with his wife Mary Ann, daughter, Mary & son, James. His eldest son, William, 9 years old, was lodging two doors away at 41 Blacklane End.
Occupation
1855 • Manchester, Lancashire, England
Toll Court, Prescot, Manchester. George was declared as a Showman on his daughter, Harriet's birth registration. He was then declared a Traveller at her baptism.
Residence
1861 • Todmorden and Walsden, Lancashire, England
Shade Street, Todmorden. George, a Joiner, living with wife Mary Ann & daughters, Mary, Harriet & Clara.
Residence
1871 • Cornforth, Durham, England
Behind Railway Tavern Inn, in Caravans. George, a Joiner, living with wife, Mary Ann, son William, daughters, Mary, Harriet, Clara & Sarah Ann.
Son William Rose Address & Occupation.
1881 • Falkirk Burgh, Stirlingshire, Scotland
George Rose's son, William Rose, also lived at Callender Riggs & was also a Travelling Showman.
George dies in 1882.
If we decipher what William Roses wife name is then we will be further ahead then anyone over in the land of trees. No one has even a wife's first name. It's 4-5 letters and ends with NE. Jane gets my vote...but we shall see.
***** Bonus Crumb *****
Death
Before 1887 • Stirlingshire, Scotland
When daughter Sarah Ann married in 1887, she declared that her father, George Rose, a Shooting Gallery Proprietor, was deceased.
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Small update:
Hand writing deciphering volunteers say ask SP for a better copy of the George Rose death cert , so that is what I will do. Their site is down for maintenance at the moment. I will report back.
Also they did say it is "Shooting Saloon Proprietor"
Not sure of William Roses occupation or wife's first name without a better copy of the doc.
So thanks to those people.
Just noticed the upload i did of George Rose death cert did not work... will post that when SP site opens again.
Also I just re-read and at least in 1843 William Rose seemed to be a weaver...
from above:
George Rose, a bachelor, Baker, father, William Rose, a Weaver, married Mary Ann Milner, spinster, father William Milner, a Moulder.
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My apologies... after I paid for the George Rose death cert there was an error downloading it and I didn't notice before uploading here...
Here is George Rose's death cert:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17VeoyHmlInT_5UC8PSNqLIgrUdmejqrD/view?usp=sharing
I am following advice and asking SP for a better copy.
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Thank you very much for purchasing that to help solve the riddle. It is much appreciated. I'm going to spend some time at the weekend looking through all of the week provided on here this week and seeing how far I get. I'll use SP and get some of the documents purchased that I need.
Thanks again to everyone for your hard work and dedication.
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There is still your Grandmother Mary Ann Milner's (George Roses wife) death cert to get. Which will list her parents.
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?search_type=people&dl_cat=statutory&dl_rec=statutory-deaths&surname=milner&surname_so=exact&forename=mary%20ann&forename_so=starts&other_surname_so=exact&mmsurname_so=exact&birth_year_range=1&record_type=stat_deaths
That one census she was born in Montrose Scotland but I looked hard and can't see. Could be a missing birth doc but I think the census could be wrong and she was born in England. Worth looking into at some point.
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Here is George Rose's death cert:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17VeoyHmlInT_5UC8PSNqLIgrUdmejqrD/view?usp=sharing
Unfortunately the image is far too small to try & decipher.
Is it possible to download it in any other format than pdf. (useless), use the 'Save' button & choose jpeg or similar (much better) & if necessary post in 2 parts please without making any changes to the downloaded image size?
Annie
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I'm sorry for that. I uploaded the exact pdf i bought off of SP site.
Hopefully you can read this.
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George Rose death zoom part 1
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George Rose death zoom part 2
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I did order a clearer copy of this document .... hopefully it is better.
Unfortunately the image is far too small to try & decipher.
Let me know if you are able to view these enlargements if not I can blowup bigger and message privately.... You should be able to right mouse click each image above and select view and then increase the size as big as you need.
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Thanks AoK, a lot better, however, the occ. of William is curious...
It might end with 'alist'?
Mother's name could be Anne or Jane?
Is it possible to post an inverted image from SP?
Annie
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Covid strikes again !
Due to the Covid-19 virus our services are restricted at this time and I’m afraid we will not be able to rescan this illegible image at present. The staff are currently working from home and do not have access to the register books or the scanning equipment. Accordingly, I’m refunding six credits to your ScotlandsPeople account.
I’m sorry I’m unable to help you further on this occasion, but do please keep a note of this and any further legibility queries that you have so in future we will be able to look into them on your behalf.
Oh well... we tried.
We do know George's father is named William. I believe the mother's name is Jane, possibly Anne. We'll have to find the info another way.
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Thanks AoK, a lot better, however, the occ. of William is curious...
It might end with 'alist'?
Did you not like my suggestion of Soldier ? I still stand by that, though I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise.
When penstrokes are broken like this, you have to supply the missing parts with your mind's eye.
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Yes, I do like your soldier suggestion! I respect your eye for this kind of thing. My eyes see ___dist, but I am admittedly a newbie at doc deciphering and old English occupations.
I’m refunding six credits to your ScotlandsPeople account.
Hey ...we got it for free! Bonus.
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My eyes see ___dist
Point taken - I can see ...ist is also possible.
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George Rose
Shooting saloon
Proprietor
Married to
Mary Ann Milner
1882 October seventeenth
11h 0m PM
Royal Infirmary
Stirling
No settled (? one might expect this part to state Usual Residence)
residence
William Rose
Arialist (? i.e. trapeze artist)
(deceased)
Jane(?) Rose
M(aiden) S(urname)
______
(deceased)
______ ____
of both legs
as certified by
John(?) -------
M B -- M
_____
Mary Anne Rose
her X mark
Widow
___ ____
____ Witness
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Magnificent!
Bravo Isabel. Not even my family and I am genuinely thrilled by this.
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Great work Isabel!
Senile Gangrene
of both legs
Annie
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I'm kind of suspicious of the 1843 wedding that listed father William as weaver... I've seen it time and time again where folks have wrong info on their family tree profiles. This 1843 wedding for George Rose may very well be right but I still think the William listed as living with him in Scotland 1888 (half his age) would be the same William listed here... 2 years before 1843. I believe it's Georges son.
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
ROSE, WILLIAM MILLINER
GRO Reference: 1841 S Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 311
All part of a family circus ! I think I just found William Rose (born 1841) in 1861 at age 19 by searching freecen for "William Rose" occupation: circus
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5906c89fe9379091b144a8a2/william-rose-1861-yorkshire-west-riding-bradford-west-1842-?locale=en
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This could be his marriage going by the 1881 census with wife Jessie...
ROSE WILLIAM / HENDRY JESSIE 1876 - 275/ 51 Brechin
Annie
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Bang on Annie!
I get a kick of the description of where George Rose lived as a joiner in 1871...
"Behind the tavern in caravans.."
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5902f993e9379091b11822f6/george-rose-1871-durham-stockton-1821-?locale=en
I think they often lived like this:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/twm_news/7589462318
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I've not been too well over the past few days so didn't get a chance to follow up on all of the info provided. Just had a quick glance on the forum to get a quick refresher and find a whole lot of new info! I genuinely never expected so many replies to my original question.
I may be able to enhance those documents in a editing software I use to see if we can decipher them a bit better. Looks like I've got a mountain of info to trawl through in my spare time though :)
I'm not sure what to make about George Rose and his many vocations through the years unless as you say the census docs have been deciphered incorrectly.
Discussing with my dad at the weekend though, he did say when he was young he remembered his dad taking him to travelling fairs and introducing him to his 'cousins'. Chances are these were descendants of George Rose