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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Erica1980 on Friday 12 March 21 15:32 GMT (UK)
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Hiya all I have never used anything like this before so I do hope this is ok to post.
I have been browsing a while looking through topics.
I have been researching my family tree for a few months now and I have found lots of names and dates but that's about it really i have found lots on my Grandfathers side but nothing at on my Grandmothers all I know is birth and death but there is nothing else to find it seems.
I am Looking for Thomas and Harriet Watson of Ripley Derbyshire Thomas was born 1886 died 1958 and Harriet Watson born 1886 died 1934 they are both buried together but I have not been able to find anything more about them and the family know nothing of them at all which is very intreging but frustrating to.
Harriet has (pem) written on her headstone after her name does anyone know what this could mean please?
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Hi Erica,
Welcome to RootsChat!
I noticed (from the National Probate Calendar) that Harriet's full name was Harriet Emma. From this, I think I have found the marriage record of Thomas & Harriet.
Year: 1909
Location: Basford, Nottinghamshire
Harriet Emma SMITH m. Thomas WATSON
Here they are in the 1911 Census with their daughter, Evelyn:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWSZ-4LB
(If you do not have an account on FamilySearch I suggest you create one because it is free and very useful)
I think the confusion stems from the fact they actually lived in Nottinghamshire but moved to Derbyshire at a later date.
Could you give us the name of one of Thomas & Harriet's children (who is deceased as per RootsChat rules) as then we can search for their birth certificate and confirm their mother's maiden name is in fact Smith.
Queenie :)
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sorry I missed that, they had 2 daughters Evelyn watson and Kathleen Brown I haven't used that site but have used others but haven't been able to trace Thomas at all. Thank you so much for any help :)
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As Queenie has found all of that, I will just add that the probate is an administration so there will be no further info. to be found there.
The marriage certificate will maybe help with harriets fathers name, useful if you are chasing Smiths :)
Mike
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this is all new to me, what does it mean by administration? Thank you
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Welcome to Rootschat :-)
I'm not sure about the (pem) on the gravestone - which cemetery/ graveyard are they buried in? - if you have a photo of the gravestone ( or a link to one) we could have a look and see if anyone has any suggestions.
Boo
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this is the head stone of Thomas, Harriet and Evelyn. thank you so much for your help
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There is a Harriet Emma Smith birth registered in Basford reg. district March quarter 1886, Basford covers Gotham, a possibility but not found her in 1891 yet.
Thomas Watson is a bit more difficult, there are a few in Preston (lancs), but no Thomas living in bamber bridge in 1891, and none look obvious candidates to be a groom/ coachman in 1911 :)
You may have to purchase that marriage certificate.
Mike
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This looks like Harriet in 1891, she is transcribed as Harriet a smith in 1901.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:4C82-X2M
Mike
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That's brill thank you so much, I will look into buying the marriage certificate, our family have no records of anyone at all and my Grandma has been gone since 2002 so now there's no one to ask.
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I had thought I found her on the GRO site born 1887 ...but then several comments came in while I was writing.
SMITH, HARRIET EMMA Mother: FEARN
GRO Reference: 1887 J Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 587
Am I searching in vain? 8)
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i haven't come across that name, I did find a charlotte Gunn Married to George Smith that i thought were Harriets parents but if she was a Smith the list is endless
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There are 2 marriages recorded for Thomas Watson in 1909 one for Basford and one that is Nottingham but I'm unsure which one it would be
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this is the head stone of Thomas, Harriet and Evelyn. thank you so much for your help
Thanks for the photo.
I would say that "Pem" was a nickname/ pet name by which she was known, relating to the Emma in her name.
Boo
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Ah yes...I see that entry now
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
SMITH, HARRIET EMMA GUNN
GRO Reference: 1886 M Quarter in BASFORD Volume 07B Page 259
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this is the head stone of Thomas, Harriet and Evelyn. thank you so much for your help
Thanks for the photo.
I would say that "Pem" was a nickname/ pet name by which she was known, relating to the Emma in her name.
That's so lovely
Boo
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Yes that must be the same as I found to. I just struggle to know what is real and what is a guess choosing the wrong ones have sent me on many a wild goose chase :(
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You did say she was born in Derbyshire as far as you know?
I guess Basford is Nottingham which would tie into a previous posters comment on previous page.
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Gotham Nottinghamshire (I think) they must have moved to Derbyshire after they were married
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There are 2 marriages recorded for Thomas Watson in 1909 one for Basford and one that is Nottingham but I'm unsure which one it would be
It is the Basford one you need:
Name: Harriet Emma Smith
Registration Year: 1909
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration District: Basford
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume: 7b
Page: 351
Queenie :)
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Thank you I will order a certificate :) they seem to be more expensive than the death certificates is the only way to get one I can see this being an expensive past time ;D
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Thank you I will order a certificate :) they seem to be more expensive than the death certificates is the only way to get one I can see this being an expensive past time ;D
Indeed it is! It is a lot of fun, though ;D. I don't think you will be able to narrow down Thomas' parents until you see the birth certificate but I am 99% certain that you are right with Charlotte Gunn & George Smith as Harriet's parents.
Queenie :)
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I believe...based on your info...that this is Harriet's death on the GRO
WATSON, HARRIETT EMMA 48
GRO Reference: 1934 D Quarter in BELPER Volume 07B Page 648
They do not show 1958 deaths when you search GRO...only up to 1957.
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Kathleen m Watson, mother’s maiden name smith, registered Belper June quarter 1916, Belper registration district covers Ripley, so the move was between the two children’s births.
That ties the gravestone to the couple in the 1911 census in gotham
Mike
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This 'is' an expensive journey.
If it were me, I'd start with the marriage record for Thomas and Harriet, see what that record has to say about their father's names and occupations and, from there, work out which birth registrations are most likely to be the right ones for each of them.
Help will be available at that stage to work out which ones may be the right ones.
It's a slow and step by step journey.
Boo
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One possibility
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/cgi-bin/mkindx.cgi?parish=Bamber+Bridge&type=Parish&community=
Mike
Sorry the link doesn’t work, lancsopc has a baptism for Thomas Watson in bamber bridge, 1886, I will try and find it again, it’s not the easiest site to search
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Here goes, a spelling test for me
Baptism 5 Dec 1886 brownedge st Mary bamber bridge
Thomas Watson filius Thomae Watson and Eliz. Annae formerly maltby
Born 25 nov 1886
Godparents Joanes Gul. Watson and maria Anne Watson.
5 out of 10. Mike
Added brownedge st Mary’s is a Catholic Church
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Thanks for all your help I feel that I have gone as far as i can without getting the marriage certificate. I have looked into every possibility but without any dates I just cannot be sure and i really want to do this right I have been doing this for months now I have started looking into newspapers which is fascinating but as yet not found anything in relation to any of my relatives yet
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There are 2 marriages recorded for Thomas Watson in 1909 one for Basford and one that is Nottingham but I'm unsure which one it would be
Queenie replied and confirmed which one to apply for so that's great.
Apologies if you already know this:
https://www.freebmd.org.uk
You can add in a spouses name to help narrow down the search .
Search for Thomas Watson and add in "Harriet" as his spouse's first name, search a period of 1908-1910 (per that 1911 census, they'd been married 2 years but widen the search a bit to be sure) .
That search brings up just one result from the whole of England and Wales
Q2 1909 Watson Thomas Reg District: Basford vol 7b page 351
- sadly its rarely 'that' easy :-)
The result just lists one name - Thomas Watson so click on the page number (351) - there were usually at least 2 marriages on each page in the register- and it will show you who was on that page
and one of the brides was Harriet Emma Smith so that's the one you want.
According to the 1911 census transcript Queenie supplied, Harriet was born in Gotham.
In the results for that marriage on Free BMD, click on the District name of Basford - that takes you to a page that says it "spans Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire" and if you click on the word 'here' where it says you can get more info, that takes you to more detail about the places within that Registration District - and Basford includes Gotham so that's a little extra weight to add to be it being the right record, as that was her birthplace.
That looks like a lot written down, but it only takes a few seconds to actually do it.
Boo
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Thank you that's Fab It's nice to know that my work hasn't been in vain! I have tried to find Thomas birth but nothing is coming up unfortunately :'(
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I have tried to find Thomas birth but nothing is coming up unfortunately :'(
The baptism from Lancashire online parish clerk I suggested is the correct date,name, and place, it can be found on freebmd dec quarter 1886 Preston registration district, it has to be a good possibility as bamber bridge would be unheard of in Nottingham unless you were born there
Mike
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I have tried to find Thomas birth but nothing is coming up unfortunately :'(
The baptism from Lancashire online parish clerk I suggested is the correct date,name, and place, it can be found on freebmd dec quarter 1886 Preston registration district, it has to be a good possibility as bamber bridge would be unheard of in Nottingham unless you were born there
Mike
Though its possible Mike, I am unsure about that being the right record.
https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Bamber-Bridge/stmary/index.html
If you click on the baptisms there are indexes for each time frame and there was only 1 Thomas Watson in the index which includes 1886 - baptism 5th Dec 1886, which is the one you found.
Now click on deaths and use the index to find the same time frame and there is a Thomas Watson, aged 4 months whose burial was 9th April 1887 - which looks quite possible to be the same child?
Boo
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Erica,
I am not sure what sites you have access to. If you can view the 1939 National Identity Register (we aren't permitted to do look ups on that in here) you should be able to find Thomas' birth date.
Were they buried in Ripley? Was this a churchyard or a municipal cemetery?
The gravestone photo you posted - I can see he died in April 1958 but can't read the date in April.
and do you know what it says on that cross which is in front of the stone for Harriet, Thomas and Evelyn Annie ?
Sorry, you came looking for answers and I am bombarding you with questions!
Boo
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I have tried to find Thomas birth but nothing is coming up unfortunately :'(
The baptism from Lancashire online parish clerk I suggested is the correct date,name, and place, it can be found on freebmd dec quarter 1886 Preston registration district, it has to be a good possibility as bamber bridge would be unheard of in Nottingham unless you were born there
Mike
Though its possible Mike, I am unsure about that being the right record.
https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Bamber-Bridge/stmary/index.html
If you click on the baptisms there are indexes for each time frame and there was only 1 Thomas Watson in the index which includes 1886 - baptism 5th Dec 1886, which is the one you found.
Now click on deaths and use the index to find the same time frame and there is a Thomas Watson, aged 4 months whose burial was 9th April 1887 - which looks quite possible to be the same child?
Boo
I missed that, but I am a little confused by the abbreviations, is (mos.) months and (mens) minutes, some have hora, diem etc and one has 23 mens, which would have been almost 2 years.
I’m confused,
Mike
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!6th April 1958 he died, he is buried in Ripley cemetery Derbyshire. The cross is just memorial cross that was added by relatives
Your help is so appreciated! i have been searching for months but i don't think I have been doing it correctly
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I have tried to find Thomas birth but nothing is coming up unfortunately :'(
The baptism from Lancashire online parish clerk I suggested is the correct date,name, and place, it can be found on freebmd dec quarter 1886 Preston registration district, it has to be a good possibility as bamber bridge would be unheard of in Nottingham unless you were born there
Mike
Though its possible Mike, I am unsure about that being the right record.
https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Bamber-Bridge/stmary/index.html
If you click on the baptisms there are indexes for each time frame and there was only 1 Thomas Watson in the index which includes 1886 - baptism 5th Dec 1886, which is the one you found.
Now click on deaths and use the index to find the same time frame and there is a Thomas Watson, aged 4 months whose burial was 9th April 1887 - which looks quite possible to be the same child?
Boo!6th April 1958 he died, he is buried in Ripley cemetery Derbyshire. The cross is just memorial cross that was added by relatives
Your help is so appreciated! i have been searching for months but i don't think I have been doing it correctly
oh that's a shame thank you both for looking though :)
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I have found a Thomas Carter Watson born in Liverpool 1885. on his wifes probate when she died it said his name was Thomas Watson Carter but that was the only place I have seen it, could this be him? would it say Liverpool if he was born in Bamber Bridge? I know names get dropped etc
Thank you for any help :)
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I wouldn't buy a cert on that basis, yes you'll get a certificate for a Thomas Watson, no it may not be 'your' Thomas.
There are 24 births in FreeBMD for Thomas Watson born 1885-1887 in Lancashire.
So far the only clue is that he said in 1911 that he was born in Bamber Bridge. Hopefully that is correct and not just the first place he remembered living.
Until we know what he said his Dad's name and occupation was (from the marriage cert), we have no other checking point to use to attempt to find him.
BTW you didn't say if you have access to a site that lets you find him in the 1939 National Identity Register? If you can identify him in that it will give you his birth date, let us know as given you had 6 weeks to register a birth that could narrow down the options in the births index further.
Boo
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Yes I do have access to them but I find it quite difficult to search, i think I maybe using them wrong :-\ his dob was 9th August 1885
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So was that d.o.b. from the 1939 Register? If so, where was he living and who else was in the house? All of this sort of info helps us to help you. The more we know about a person, the more chance we have of finding more about them.
Boo
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No that was from a census, i'm not sure how to check the bmd records this was from the 1939 census he was living in ripley Derbyshire with his new wife Laura Bates at this time
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I have found a Thomas Carter Watson born in Liverpool 1885. on his wifes probate when she died it said his name was Thomas Watson Carter
I've just realised you are referring to Harriet's entry in the Probate Calendar.
If you look through the page its on in the calendar, you'll see that is was common to name the executor/ administrator followed by their occupation e.g. railway clerk, labourer, etc
Harriet's entry says she was the wife of Thomas Watson, Administration was granted to the said Thomas Watson carter.
carter is written with a lower case c, not part of his name but is his occupation.
Boo
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oh gosh, I never knew that :-\ I have spent all this time thinking it was his middle name! thank you for that info :)
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No that was from a census, i'm not sure how to check the bmd records this was from the 1939 census he was living in ripley Derbyshire with his new wife Laura Bates at this time
Background info on the 1939 National Identity Register (which 'is' the record you have viewed)
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/
That tells you why it was taken and what it was used for.
Specifically in Section number 3 it says:
While the 1939 Register is not a census, it is arranged along similar lines and includes similar, if less detailed, information. It does, however, show exact dates of birth where census returns simply give a person’s age.
Boo
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THere has been a correction made on his year of birth, could this be possible that he is actually 10 years older and this could be why I can't trace his birth?
sorry for all the questions I am still trying to work out the ins and outs of the process
thank you :)
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Have you looked at the image to see what it actually says?
The correction on Ancestry is because the transcription was incorrect.
Always check the image and don't just rely on the transcription.
The image is quite clear the d.o.b. was recorded as 09 Aug 1885
Boo
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Thank you, yes I have looked at it and did see the dob I just didn't know why would someone would change it that's all.
it would just make sense as to why I can't find any record of his birth.
he is a mystery to me :-\
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Back to possible birth registrations for Thomas Watson
Bear in mind that we can only work with info that we can see in the records - which may or may not be correct. Dates of birth sometimes have errors, places of birth are often recorded as the first place the person remembered living so they may have been born elsewhere and the family moved when they were very young.
Its a painstaking, baby step by baby step procedure - but it does get easier/quicker once you have done it a good few times.
You said you don't know how to search, hopefully this will help.
So the starting points we have are:
his d.o.b. on the 1939 register was recorded as 09 Aug 1885
his place of birth, on the 1911 census was recorded as Bamber Bridge Lancashire
So that is what we can work with, in the hope that we can track him down - along with a father's name that will hopefully be revealed when you get the marriage cert.
If he was born in August 1885, the earliest his birth could be registered in the GRO births index would be the third quarter (July-September) 1885.
Births were required to be registered within 6 weeks, so that would give a range in the index of Q3 1885 to the end of Q4 1885. To be on the safe side I'd stretch that to Q1 1886.
Free BMD, - is easier to search then the GRO Site as you can restrict it by county of registration, but doesn't give mother's maiden name prior to 1911.
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Search births with the following criteria:
Surname: WATSON
First name; Thomas
Date range; Sep 1885 to March 1886
In the Counties box, select Lancashire to just include births registered in that county
Click on Find to see the results.
I see 4 results and write those down as I would have to check all of them to try to track them to see what, if anything, I can learn about each of them
1 Thomas Watson Q4 1885 Rochdale 8e 86
Checking this on the GRO site using the criteria
Year 1885 +/- 0
Surname Watson
First name Thomas
Sex Male
District of Birth. Rochdale
gives a MNN of Lord
looking a couple of years either side of his birth to see if I can find a possible sibling for him
Using the criteria
Year 1887 +/- 2 (that may have to be repeated using different years if nothing turns up)
Surname Watson
First name leave blank
Sex Male (though repeat the same search using female)
MMN. Lord
District of Birth. Rochdale
gives a possible sibling as John Watson MMN Lord
1891 census
Search for Thomas Watson born 1885 +/- 2 with a brother called John, in Lancashire
scan down the list of results and this looks likely
Piece 3344/Folio 84/ page 16
Market St Spotland, Rochdale
Thomas Watson Head, wid 71
Thomas Watson, son, married 36
Jane Watson daughter in law, married 30
Thomas Watson grandson, age 5
John Watson , grandson age 2
Free BMD Marriages gives a likely result for
Thomas Watson married Jane Lord Q3 1884, Rochdale
Following 'this' family through the later census returns, shows that 'this' Thomas born 1885 is still living with his Dad in 1911.
So he is highly unlikely to be the Thomas Watson who married Harriet Emma in 1909 and I'd discount that birth registration.
I'd suggest you follow the same steps with the other registrations, see what turns up.
Keep notes of what you find, and when the marriage cert arrives, hopefully the the groom's father's name will match with one of these births you have explored.
Boo