RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: John915 on Tuesday 02 March 21 19:48 GMT (UK)
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Good evening,
Just done my bit to aid future RCers. Census letter dropped through the door today so i've completed mine. Got a thankyou email while I still had my finger on submit.
BUT, the letter is a little misleading, it says "all households should complete the census ON sunday 21st march or as soon as possible after". However, when you go to census.gov.uk and check, it tells you that you can complete it online as soon as you receive the letter.
I'm of the opinion that if everyone tried to do it on the 21st the site would overload and crash.
John915
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Yes a bit premature allowing you to submit it in advance. Personally I would wait till the official day to complete it and post it back (if that is an option)
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I have just checked as I live in Scotland and the latest information states that we have postponed our Census until 2022.
Confusing or not :) :)
Dorrie
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Scotland have postponed our Census until 2022
How odd considering 'online' is used for almost everything these days, including voting i.e. Covid shouldn't really affect anything to do with the census ???
Annie
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I remember the last one and the post box full to overflowing with census returns. I did mine online. So much easier.
Regards
Panda
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BUT, the letter is a little misleading, it says "all households should complete the census ON sunday 21st march or as soon as possible after". However, when you go to census.gov.uk and check, it tells you that you can complete it online as soon as you receive the letter.
Surely we should not be doing it until the 21st or after, it is after all a snapshot of all people alive on that date ???
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How odd considering 'online' is used for almost everything these days, including voting i.e. Covid shouldn't really affect anything to do with the census ???
Annie
I think the problem is chasing up households that haven't submitted census form need to be contacted in person.
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At the last Australian census my son waited until the day only to find the system had crashed, who would have thought so many would want to do it online. Obviously not the government. I did mine a couple of days earlier and told everyone I was locking the doors so no one could get in. ;D ;D
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There are government information ads about the census on the radio (well at least on Classicfm, so I guess they'll be elsewhere too) and they say you can fill in the form anytime from 15 March to 21 March. Of course, to do it on line - which they expect most people to do - you have to receive a letter with a number code. We've not received that yet.
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I hope that all RootsChat members will remember to keep a copy of their return. That way, any future relatives who are interested in family history won't have to wait until 2122 to see the entry. :)
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That is an excellent idea BumbleB.
Dorrie
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I guess it might be easier to find out about ancestors in 2122. The young today seem to record everything on Facebook, WhatsApp etc. It's been suggested that this might be the last census, no idea what will be put in its place though, the current ads telling you to complete the census suggest that the info is needed to know how many schools, hospitals, houses etc. to build. Won't they need to know that in 2122 or even in 2031?
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I kept my form from last time. It was suggested by someone in the family history world and seemed a good idea.
Al I have received so far is a card telling me to look out for the forms.
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Not received anything yet
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Nor me yet, not received anything.
I may get drunk and sleep in a field on census night so family in 100 years time will be asking on social media "Can anyone find this man on the 2021 census?"
Or give my middle name as my first name, and put my birthplace as my home city as opposed to the actual town.
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I think the 2003 electoral roles would confuse anyone looking for me
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I hope that all RootsChat members will remember to keep a copy of their return. That way, any future relatives who are interested in family history won't have to wait until 2122 to see the entry. :)
That is really good advice BB, I will do that ;D
I make put "Self isolating in a caravan in Lake District" ;D ;D
Carol
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How odd considering 'online' is used for almost everything these days, including voting i.e. Covid shouldn't really affect anything to do with the census ???
Annie
I think the problem is chasing up households that haven't submitted census form need to be contacted in person.
The English/Welsh 2021 census is still going ahead so your theory seems just as odd as I was referring to the Scottish census which is seemingly delayed until 2022.
Annie
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The census in Australia will be on August 10th this year. OH & I will be away on a trip. The itinerary indicates we will be in Alice Springs, a little distance away from Sydney :o :o :o
Just to add to the fun, the census 10 years ago, we were away on census night, in Airlie Beach, central coast of Queensland. :o :o
The hotel had to give us a special form to fill in :P
AC
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I guess it might be easier to find out about ancestors in 2122. The young today seem to record everything on Facebook, WhatsApp etc. It's been suggested that this might be the last census, no idea what will be put in its place though, the current ads telling you to complete the census suggest that the info is needed to know how many schools, hospitals, houses etc. to build. Won't they need to know that in 2122 or even in 2031?
Knowing the way the authorities twist the assurances given on census forms it is very doubtful if the 2021 census will exist in 2122.
If the assurances on the 2021 census "What you need to know booklet" are correct it will not be kept until 2122.
The assurances claim "Under data protection law personal data should be kept no longer than needed to fulfil the purposes for which it was originally collected." It also claims "We hold the least amount of personal data or make it anonymous, where appropriate." also "We'll securely hold the data and control this data for 100 years."
In other words we will start destroying data as soon as it is no longer needed and at the most within 100 years of taking the census.
Cheers
Guy
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Apart from dob and gender, I don't think this census would give much info to a future family researcher. Place of birth - country only, what good is that if you can't find your ancestor. At the moment my daughter is living at her normal address, her daughter is at Edinburgh Uni (so no census for her) and her son is in Nice. How anyone would be expected to find them is questionable.
However, if as Guy suggests, the census will be destroyed before 2122, then family researchers will have to find another way of tracing ancestors - Facebook, Instagram etc? there is plenty of evidence of what people were doing on there. ::) ::)
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Facebook, Instagram etc? there is plenty of evidence of what people were doing on there. ::) ::)
But not for those of us that don't use those sites and are on sites like this with 'nicknames'
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I've received the letter and leaflet. The thing that worries me is that if you don't want to, or can't complete the census paper online, you can apply for a paper copy - either online or from a free phone number. I wonder how many people just won't bother to do that? In 2011 didn't we all receive paper copies but had the option to fill it in online?
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Good morning,
But if they don't bother then they risk prosecution. It is a legal requirement that every household has to complete it by one f those methods.
Jon915
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Good morning,
But if they don't bother then they risk prosecution. It is a legal requirement that every household has to complete it by one f those methods.
Jon915
As I've just said on the other census thread, I know, but I doubt whether they will chase everyone up. If they want people to complete the form they need to make it easier for them. A lot of older people don't have access to the internet and some don't like using the phone, especially if it will be a service where you need to push different buttons.
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Just found this thread. Still had nothing here- up north!
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The 'letter' does state that, if circumstances change, then an amendment can be submitted by accessing your census using the 16-digit code you were given.
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I've now had my paper one that I requested. One of the questions asks what were you doing in the last seven days. For me that means retired.
So skip the next few questions then Have you ever done any paid work. Well yes but over 30 years ago. I left to have the children and never went back. I therefore don't see the relevance of answering loads of questions about my employment of over 30 years ago. ::)
What are any long retired Rootschatters planning to put for Question 38 which is:- Yes, in the last 12 months, Yes, but not in the last 12 months and No, have never worked.
Including this census I will be on seven census records.
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What are any long retired Rootschatters planning to put for Question 38 which is:- Yes, in the last 12 months, Yes, but not in the last 12 months and No, have never worked.
I ticked the box Yes, but not in the last 12 months. That's true, even though I retired in 2001.
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Did you then go on to fill in all your employment details Lizzie, or left that blank?
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I filled it in and also my husband's.
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I wonder if a better question would have been Have you worked since the last census in 2011? Yes or No option. You could say no and skip all the employment questions.
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I shall do mine online, everyone in the household on the 21st March.
I may go to the pub that night and be enumerated there, so I am enumerated twice, to help descendants in 100 years time. ;D ;D
Very close to home doing the modern day censuses as they are a huge part of our FH research.
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I wonder if a better question would have been Have you worked since the last census in 2011? Yes or No option. You could say no and skip all the employment questions.
That would mean the people who set the census having commonsense. ::)
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I shall do mine online, everyone in the household on the 21st March.
I may go to the pub that night and be enumerated there, so I am enumerated twice, to help descendants in 100 years time. ;D ;D
Very close to home doing the modern day censuses as they are a huge part of our FH research.
On another thread, Guy Etchells quoted National Statistics Office (I think it was them) saying that the census will be destroyed when they've finished using it, so it won't be around for ancestors in 100 years.
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Commonsense doesn't always come to the fore when doing these sort of things. Some government forms can be as clear as mud. You are left wondering what is actually being asked, is it a or b? ::)
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On another thread, Guy Etchells quoted National Statistics Office (I think it was them) saying that the census will be destroyed when they've finished using it, so it won't be around for ancestors in 100 years.
It's also on here reply #19. That is only Guy's interpretation. Other interpretations are possible. One would have to ask ONS for clarity.
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I may go to the pub that night and be enumerated there, so I am enumerated twice, to help descendants in 100 years time. ;D ;D
Maybe it will have been destroyed by then ;D
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This might be a very, very STUPID comment - BUT aren't we supposed to be completing this census on 3! MARCH 2021? Have I missed something somewhere? Today is 12 March 2021 so 19 days in advance.
Apologies, but a lot can happen in 19 days :o
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This might be a very, very STUPID comment - BUT aren't we supposed to be completing this census on 3! MARCH 2021? Have I missed something somewhere? Today is 12 March 2021 so 19 days in advance.
Apologies, but a lot can happen in 19 days :o
If One has filled out the Census in advance, Online, then if Your circumstances have changed on the Census day, the option to amend the information, is again, available to do Online. Just don't lose the LogOn Reference Code, given in the Census Letter.
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I may get drunk and sleep in a field on census night so family in 100 years time will be asking on social media "Can anyone find this man on the 2021 census?"
As long as you won't be breaking whatever coronavirus restrictions are then in force wherever you live!
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Mine says "to be completed on Sunday the 21st March 2021" not the 31st March.
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I do dislike the assumption that everyone is computer literate!
There are still households where they do not own any such device!
Especially among the older generation.
Slightly off topic but just let today’s oldies like myself pop their clogs before assuming everyone can use a computer or similar gadget!
Some manage very well, but many don’t.
Viktoria.
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I think they're hoping people will fill in the census when they receive their letter with the code number, so that the whole thing doesn't crash on 21 March. ;D
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On another thread, Guy Etchells quoted National Statistics Office (I think it was them) saying that the census will be destroyed when they've finished using it, so it won't be around for ancestors in 100 years.
It's also on here reply #19. That is only Guy's interpretation. Other interpretations are possible. One would have to ask ONS for clarity.
I knew I'd seen his comment somewhere, I did whizz through the posts on here but obviously missed it.
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I may get drunk and sleep in a field on census night so family in 100 years time will be asking on social media "Can anyone find this man on the 2021 census?"
As long as you won't be breaking whatever coronavirus restrictions are then in force wherever you live!
I was clearly joking when I said that, as I think one of my ancestors may have missed the 1881 census but not on purpose. Hopefully lockdowns soon will be a thing of the past.
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I've entered mine online and unless I've not seen the question, it doesn't ask where I was born ???
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I've entered mine online and unless I've not seen the question, it doesn't ask where I was born ???
I have not yet looked at the form but I understand it does not ask for the place, just the country.
ONS help has this
This question is about location, not nationality
Your country of birth may not be related to your nationality. For example, someone born in Germany where their family were serving in the armed forces would answer "Germany" for this question, but might answer "British" for the question about national identity.
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Decided to fill form in on-line -
Being an out and proud Taff clicked on 'Cymraeg' - hoped to complete the form in Welsh (according to my grandfather the language of heaven!)
Welsh words of welcome - but as soon as I filled in first line of address everything reverted to English.
Duly completed form and at the end Welsh words of thanks.
Should have said I live 100 miles EAST of Offa's Dyke (deepest Yorkshire)
If English folk living in Wales can complete their form in English why can't the Taffs living in England fill their form in Welsh ?
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I've entered mine online and unless I've not seen the question, it doesn't ask where I was born ???
I have not yet looked at the form but I understand it does not ask for the place, just the country.
ONS help has this
This question is about location, not nationality
Your country of birth may not be related to your nationality. For example, someone born in Germany where their family were serving in the armed forces would answer "Germany" for this question, but might answer "British" for the question about national identity.
That won't help any descendant in a hundred year's time when they're hoping to discover where the ancestor was born. It's as bad as trying to find current census entries of; "born in Ireland"
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I was born in India, and my nationality at that time would have been British.
My nationality now is Australian. How would the ONS deal with that?
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I was born in India, and my nationality at that time would have been British.
My nationality now is Australian. How would the ONS deal with that?
Just as you say. They've dealt with far more complex data.
Rena - the census is not for us to find answers. It's for national planning, social statistics, etc.
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Rena - the census is not for us to find answers. It's for national planning, social statistics, etc.
i think a lot of people forget that the census has nothing to do with genealogy. We are lucky in the UK that our censuses have survived and are available to us. I believe a lot of counties destroyed them as soon as they extracted the information they needed.
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I am currently completing my form online but need to ask:
if someone hasnt used/had a passport since the 80s/90s do I tick :
United Kingdom or
None
(include passports and travel documents that have expired, if they are entitled to renew them)
I'm thinking United Kingdom?
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My husband applied and got a job as a Census Officer due to go out after the 21st March in the surrounding area to help and "encourage" those those have nt filled in their form to do so . He s looking forward to it but i think it might be a bit more challenging than he thinks!
Cathy
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I was not at home on the dates of the 1961, 1971, 1981, 1991 and 2001 censuses. I was at home in 2011. So in the unlikely event of anyone looking for me after 2112, they will struggle to find me.
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What can one say! ;D
Skoosh.
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I was born in India, and my nationality at that time would have been British.
My nationality now is Australian. How would the ONS deal with that?
Rena - the census is not for us to find answers. It's for national planning, social statistics, etc.
It's a pity no question was asked about hours worked, distance travelled to work, mode of transport, how many hours spent with own children, etc,etc., which could have indicated the well being of the nation.
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Rena - the census is not for us to find answers. It's for national planning, social statistics, etc.
It's a pity no question was asked about hours worked, distance travelled to work, mode of transport, how many hours spent with own children, etc,etc., which could have indicated the well being of the nation.
Those are covered by various surveys that can be one off or longitudinal. I've been regularly questioned in a longitudinal survey on such topics. These are regular surveys that take place at 6 month or so intervals, not just at 10 year intervals. Their site gives information about the various ONS studies and reports from them.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/
PS - click on the various topics listed in the top black bar to see full details
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Rena - the census is not for us to find answers. It's for national planning, social statistics, etc.
It's a pity no question was asked about hours worked, distance travelled to work, mode of transport, how many hours spent with own children, etc,etc., which could have indicated the well being of the nation.
Those are covered by various surveys that can be one off or longitudinal. I've been regularly questioned in a longitudinal survey on such topics. These are regular surveys that take place at 6 month or so intervals, not just at 10 year intervals. Their site gives information about the various ONS studies and reports from them.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/
Thanks for the reminder; as I'd been invited to join, I should have remembered the short term and long term forums each gov. sets up.
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I did a PS that you might not have seen.
PS - click on the various topics listed in the top black bar to see full details
There are masses of reports.
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I am surprised that there wasn't a question related to How many years Married or How many children living and died like in the 1911 census or present address.
Carol
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Sample surveys, etc. are used for information about those topics now, Carol:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/families
Add - in addition to the data collected by various depts.
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I don't think these suggestions relate to the real world, I can just see me, when I did my enumerator in Glasgow's Bridgeton, getting civil answers to any of this. How long have you been married? for example, that would be nobody's business an yours-truly would likely have got ma heid in ma hauns!
The census wasn't designed for family history buffs!
Skoosh.
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I may get drunk and sleep in a field on census night so family in 100 years time will be asking on social media "Can anyone find this man on the 2021 census?"
I came across a place in the 1861 census where at the end of the district, the enumerator had gone "above and beyond". He had enumerated one chap sleeping in a hut by the railway, and three sleeping in a barn. One of those in the barn had an unusual surname which matched a family on the same sheet. I suspect a pub may have been involved.
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It's a pity no question was asked about hours worked, distance travelled to work, mode of transport
Isn't there a question about travelling to workplace? I looked at the census online last week; I thought I'd seen one. I don't have to complete it as I'm in Scotland.
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I may get drunk and sleep in a field on census night so family in 100 years time will be asking on social media "Can anyone find this man on the 2021 census?"
I came across a place in the 1861 census where at the end of the district, the enumerator had gone "above and beyond". He had enumerated one chap sleeping in a hut by the railway, and three sleeping in a barn. One of those in the barn had an unusual surname which matched a family on the same sheet. I suspect a pub may have been involved.
In Bletchingdon, Oxfordshire in 1851, my ancestor's cousin was enumerated as a "tramp" as she was sleeping in a barn.
I filled my 2021 census in today, as said it may not be around in 100 years time. I filled my in online the enumerator being the website.
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It's been suggested that this might be the last census, no idea what will be put in its place though, the current ads telling you to complete the census suggest that the info is needed to know how many schools, hospitals, houses etc. to build. Won't they need to know that in 2122 or even in 2031?
From what I have read there are a number of problems with the current system. Firstly, non completion. They reckon something like 3 million people didn't get included in the 2011 census, either because they refused to fill the form in or due to other reasons. Illegal migrants for example won’t have been in a rush to complete it. I also know two people living on a small Scottish island who never got a form in 2011. A bit exceptional, but I expect there are plenty other examples of people living in camper vans etc.
Then you normally have about a quarter of a million people out of the country on holiday or business, on census night. Another factor is that population is changing much more quickly these days. In say 1901 you knew how many children there were of every age and could calculate schooling requirements in each area for the next 10 years with some accuracy. With modern migration which can fill the country up very quickly (and has reportedly also emptied it during Covid) these figures all become pretty unreliable.
So the outcome of all these factors is that the current census isn’t all that helpful for forecasting purposes.
The idea in future is to gather the information from other public sources eg NHS records. How feasible that is I don’t know.
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Back in January on The World at One (I think), there was a man from the ONS talking about the census.
He said that they get informed about -
births,
deaths,
number of people paying tax,
number of people paying NI,
number of people paying Council Tax,
number of people claiming benefits,
number of people in hospital, length of stay and type of treatment,
the number of schools and the number of pupils and their ages,
the number of care homes and the number of residents,
the number of vehicles paying road tax and the number SORN,
the gross number of households receiving gas/water/electricity,
the number of households with a landline,
from statutory authorities.
Then there were amenities that report - libraries, leisure complexes and anywhere else that counts the number of people going in and out.
Oh, I forgot 999. The number of call outs and the level of seriousness.
I am sure he mentioned motorway usage and times of the day. And something about prosecutions, type of crime and sentencing.
They know most of this stuff already.
Regards
Chas
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I seem to recall that I read somewhere that this census, 2021 would be the last one. The reason being as Kiltpin has just listed, that the necessary information is already available.
The next available census is going to be the 1921. After that, if it is made available, will be the 1951.
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The 1931 Scotland Census should be available in 10 years time as it was not destroyed in the fire in 1942 as it was stored near Edinburgh.
Dorrie
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It's obvious from a few TV fly on the wall documentaries that we definitely do not know the full extent of the numbers living in the UK. From one documentary about foreign nationals living under the radar, one single mother was desperate for her six year old son to be educated but was frightened the authorities would deport them both. The reporter on camera actually informed the lady that she could enroil her son in the local school and there was no need for her to be afraid of deportation as schools only submitted numbers not names to the governing body.
My late cousin Lilias earned a few coppers going round checking and helping to fill in census forms for residents in her nominated area. It was in the 1950s when there were many disused buildings due to the blitz and age. She had to inspect every one of them for signs of people living in them. I remember two of her recollections; one being the Italian couple with little English, a man and his wife who were travelling musicians. It was like getting blood out of a stone. Lilias helped them fill in the census and asked if there were any other residents in the house "No" was the response, until a baby's cry was heard. The baby's details were duly entered. Another verbal check that there were no other persons in the houses "No". then on cue, a male figure with bleary eyes wandered into the room. In all there were several musicians living in the house. Another time she'd been down one side of a road checking householders and was walking back down the other side of the road when a lady came running after her. Lilias recognised her as a resident she'd already visited. "I must tell you that my husband did not tell the truth. He has four men sleeping in the attic", she said.
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Completed my bit of the census. Slightly baffled as to why they want details of my employment when
I haven't worked for over 30 years. What value could that possibly have for them?
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Girl Guide reply 71, a person's previous employment may influence their health and life expectancy.
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Possibly but I don't really think that my job as a clerk/typist would have any enormous impact on my health.
As I said in my earlier reply, I haven't been employed for over 30 years. If anything was going to have an impact on my health, it was more likely through being a carer for my husband for 11 years before he died last year. Being a carer isn't a paid job.
Question 24 related to caring but that's only if it is current, not in the past.
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Good morning,
But if they don't bother then they risk prosecution. It is a legal requirement that every household has to complete it by one f those methods.
Jon915
I just heard on BBC Breakfast programme that less than 200 were prosecuted for non completion in 2011.
But how do people who are currently out of the country manage? I know someone who is stuck in Australia and has been for several months.
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I used to do electoral registration canvas and the local authority found it too time consuming to take people to court for non return of forms so only did it in extreme cases.
Possibly but I don't really think that my job as a clerk/typist would have any enormous impact on my health.
It could have left you with repetitive strain injury :-\
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Yes it could have Rosie but it didn't. Maybe I didn't do enough typing to get that condition. All in the past now anyway. :)
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I did ours for my husband and I as I'm better at reading questions online than he is. He's older than me and has been retired for many years. I knew the last job he did, but when it came to his job title I asked him what his last one was. He couldn't actually remember, so we made a best guess from our collective memories. We too were both surprised that they wanted to know about his last job from so long ago.
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If you are out of the Country and cannot return for Census Day, get on to LiveChat and explain. They will send you a census code by SMS, and you can complete the Census online.
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There are a few sailors in my line and my OH's line. The were only entered on any census when they were either at home on leave, or on ship in a UK port
When answering the question of what work did you used to do; I wrote "general dogsbody".
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When answering the question of what work did you used to do; I wrote "general dogsbody".
:D :D
My last job was over 10 years ago, I worked part-time in a local pub as a cleaner, so my answer to what work did I do was "cleaned"
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If you are out of the Country and cannot return for Census Day, get on to LiveChat and explain. They will send you a census code by SMS, and you can complete the Census online.
Doesn't that defeat the object of counting people who are at their homes on a set date?
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Groom - Yes that seems a little daft doesn't it ::) If you are not in the UK on census date, then why would you wish to imply that you are by filling in an online form in whatever country you happen to be.
The Government have rather odd ways of thinking at times, baffling :o
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If you are out of the Country and cannot return for Census Day, get on to LiveChat and explain. They will send you a census code by SMS, and you can complete the Census online.
Doesn't that defeat the object of counting people who are at their homes on a set date?
Is the point of the census just to count people who are in their own homes? I thought it was future planning of schools, hospitals etc. My friend is normally resident in England, it's just that Covid restrictions prevent his returning
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The guidance notes instruct you to complete the form as you expect your household to be on 21st March. They want a return for every household but if no-one is living there (because they are in Australia, or because it’s empty for some other reason) then you should complete the return accordingly, ie no-one in the house.
We have a home in Liverpool which will be empty on 21st March. A return is still needed for the property but it’ll be a nil return. (After you enter information about who is staying there ie no-one, it then asks the usual questions about the property, size and heating.) 2 minutes to complete.
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The census for Scotland has been postponed, do you still have to complete a form for your holiday home this year :-\
.....
https://census.gov.uk/about-the-census]
What if I'm away or abroad on Census Day?
If you're away from the UK on this date, for less than 12 months, you should still be counted in the census. You should be included on the form at your permanent or family address.
If there's someone staying or living in your home and they’re filling in the household form, they should include you there.
If there's no one at home, please fill it in as soon as you get back. You can also use your access code to complete online while you're away.
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The idea of the census is to get details of the population, wherever they happen to be.
The simple way for most of the last two centuries was to visit each place of residence and gather details from the people there.
Earlier, the "missing" details would have been a very small percentage of the population, and could be safely ignored.
With the increase in foreign travel, there are more UK residents temporarily abroad - and these days there are methods of getting that info back.
It's not a new concept. I have one of my chaps recorded in India in the 1911 census. I understand that the whole army was enumerated. It must have taken quite some time to get those forms back from the far parts of the Empire.
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Census night tonight.
I have some ancestors who had a child baptised on 30 March 1851 in Leigh On Sea, Essex, but the entire family are missing from the census, which was taken that night. Perhaps they were not enumerated.
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The Scottish Census has been delayed till we are out of the Corona Woods, hopefully next year.
What is more concerning though is the company which has been contracted with handling the census information? Step forward CACI UK, who make their money selling information. Connections to the US security services this former software company is being sued by guys held at Abu Ghraib prison and "processed rigorously!" by CACI personnel.
All very strange you might say, what possible interest, apart from the cash, has this private spy agency in our national census and how confidential is the information you put on your census form?
Skoosh.
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The Scottish Census has been delayed till we are out of the Corona Woods, hopefully next year. What is more concerning though is the company which has been contracted with handling the census information? Step forward CACI UK, who make their money selling information. Connections to the US security services this former software company is being sued by guys held at Abu Ghraib prison and "processed!" by CACI personnel.
All very strange you might say, what possible interest, apart from the cash, has this private spy agency in the national census and how confidential is the information you put on your census form?
Skoosh.
No what is very strange is you bringing up unproven claims made in 2003 against US Military Police and linking it with the UK subsidiary of a company founded in 1962 who provided technology to the US forces. Caci, California Analysis Center, Inc., now named Consolidated Analysis Center, Incorporated, is one of the largest "GoTo" I.T. companies in the world. It is not any any way surprising that the UK Scottish government have turned to them to help with gathering census information, in an attempt to overcome their past I.T. failures.
Digital data and information technology is what the company specialises in and is possibly the best company to involve with in the circumstances.
Cheers
Guy
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I find it very strange that, bearing in mind one the the main stated aims of this census is to provide information to the various government bodies to enable planning over future years, their insistence for questions like "How do you travel to work?" (paraphrasing), they insist that you answer as things are now, acknowledging that things will be different owing to the pandemic.
So in a few years time, when there has been no investment in travel infrastructure, they'll say "But the information we had was that everyone was working from home"
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Interesting point Dale. I presume that local councils will use their eyes and see how people travel in the next few years.
It will either go back to the levels it was pre pandemic or will reduce as self-employed people make, and companies offer, the choice to work from home.
There will obviously be those who will need to travel to their workplace as it would not be possible for them to work from home, e.g. police and health service. There may well be others but I can't think of them at the moment ::)
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Nothing very strange about this business except it is the subject of an article in todays National by former MP George Kerevan.
Skoosh.
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Interesting point Dale. I presume that local councils will use their eyes and see how people travel in the next few years.
It will either go back to the levels it was pre pandemic or will reduce as self-employed people make, and companies offer, the choice to work from home.
There will obviously be those who will need to travel to their workplace as it would not be possible for them to work from home, e.g. police and health service. There may well be others but I can't think of them at the moment ::)
Agreed, but I can't see it being at the current level of work from home. Which renders this question's responses useless.
As for the local council using their eyes to view the situation, you obviously have more faith in your local council than we do around this way :'(
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Using their eyes was a bit tongue in cheek, ::) as there are councils who don't want to see what is really needed and press on with their own agenda.
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Using their eyes was a bit tongue in cheek, ::) as there are councils who don't want to see what is really needed and press on with their own agenda.
Ah, sorry, missed the in irony there. :)
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See reply #93.
Very interesting article Skoosh. Ma auld man was reading it out to me over breakfast this morning. It certainly makes the point that nothing is confidential these days and our data is shared around the world.
Dorrie
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Well Dorrie having done the census in Bridgeton/Dalmarnock a couple of times and finding the usual suspicion from house-holders, particularly the young, I'm sure folk will be reassured to learn how efficient US security companies are but watch what ye write doon!
The East-End was great & only ever had one refusal, that from a guy who answered me through the letter box. I told his auld neighbour the fine was five grand, she said he was a heid-banger and never washed the sterrs, but he scoured the district looking for me & a form! ;D
Best Wishes,
Skoosh.
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What a brave man. Were ye no feart o gettin a Glesga Kiss?
The guy must have heard you through the letterbox telling his neighbour about the five grand fine and decided not to risk it.
Wonder if he ever took his turn of washing the sterrs ? Maybe that should have been a question on the Census. ;D ;D ;D
Cheers,
Dorrie
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Ah could take ye tae the very close. Up another close a youngster tried tae fix me up wi a date wi his Maw, she set aboot him wi a brush! ;D
Skoosh.
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Using their eyes was a bit tongue in cheek, ::) as there are councils who don't want to see what is really needed and press on with their own agenda.
Completely off topic....but concerning faith in your local council.
There is a small piece of land near to us, if you include the allotments it’s a very nice chunk of prime building land, accessible only on foot. One problem, the only vehicle access is through a housing estate using a narrow section of road. It’s often pandemonium, people constantly having their cars damaged and losing wing mirrors. We’ve tried for years to get either a one way system or have the road closed at it’s further end to stop the ‘rat run’. Proposals put forward for ‘luxury’ housing, the land backs straight on to the National Park.....guess when they did the traffic monitoring? Right in the middle of the first lockdown when hardly a car moved up or down". >:(
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Nothing very strange about this business except it is the subject of an article in todays National by former MP George Kerevan.
Skoosh.
Hardly a neutral source of information or opinion.
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The Scottish Census has been delayed till we are out of the Corona Woods, hopefully next year.
What is more concerning though is the company which has been contracted with handling the census information? Step forward CACI UK, who make their money selling information. Connections to the US security services this former software company is being sued by guys held at Abu Ghraib prison and "processed rigorously!" by CACI personnel.
All very strange you might say, what possible interest, apart from the cash, has this private spy agency in our national census and how confidential is the information you put on your census form?
Skoosh.
I don't know what the magnetism is towards using American companies. If I remember aright, the Blair/Brown government tasked an American company to work on the UK annual NIC Returns. The company then had to admit they'd "lost" the disks.
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Interesting point Dale. I presume that local councils will use their eyes and see how people travel in the next few years.
It will either go back to the levels it was pre pandemic or will reduce as self-employed people make, and companies offer, the choice to work from home.
There will obviously be those who will need to travel to their workplace as it would not be possible for them to work from home, e.g. police and health service. There may well be others but I can't think of them at the moment ::)
If I were to be still working, I would have had to go to my normal place of employment, There was no way I could work from home.
I used to work in the telephone exchange, physically connecting customer numbers to customers copper cables, not possible from home ::)
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Not unlike yourself Maiden Stone!
Skoosh.
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Completed our paper census form on Sunday (21st) and posted it Monday morning at the village post office and got proof of posting (well, you never know). This afternoon (Tuesday) a young man in a hi-vis jacket emblazoned with the words "Census 2021" knocked on our door, saying that according to records we hadn't yet submitted our census form. We were, of course, able to reassure him that it had been posted and he said he had found that a lot of people had chosen to complete the paper forms.
Beware all census dodgers. Big Brother is watching you!
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I requested a paper census 10 days before the day. Nothing had arrived by the Sunday so did it all on-line.
If the paper census does ever turn up, I will let you all know.
Regards
Chas
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Gilig reply #106. That young man was quick off the mark. Over-zealous imo. Isn't it obvious that many census returns will be in the post? If I put something in my nearest post box on Monday it might not begin its' journey until Tuesday. I received a Christmas card in mid-January. Are you sure the man was genuine? There's bound to be a census scam.
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Yes, I'm pretty sure he was genuine. As I said, he wore a hi-vis jacket with Census 2021 emblazoned on it and carried one of those devices that parcel deliverers use to check details. It seems pretty elaborate if it was some kind of a scam.....and he didn't ask us for our bank details!! Of course it could have been some kind of a trick to check whether the house was empty prior to burgling it, but as it happens we were both in and both came to the door from different parts of the house. I'll ask around and see if anyone else locally was visited by him.
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That does seem a bit odd, there is no way that they would have had time to cross check whether or not you had completed your census either on line on by the post. Census day wasn't until Sunday so, as said below, the earliest the forms would have reached the census office would have been Tuesday!
It would have been interesting to have seen what would have happened if you'd said you hadn't completed it - would he have tried to implement the £1000 fine?
Oh look - scam!
https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/census-scams-warning-woman-hands-20223362
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Gosh, Groom, that has set me thinking and wondering whether if I had been on my own he would have asked me for cash! He seemed like such a nice lad, in fact we joked afterwards about how he would cope if faced by a fierce, non-compliant householder.
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Gilig reply #106. That young man was quick off the mark. Over-zealous imo. Isn't it obvious that many census returns will be in the post? If I put something in my nearest post box on Monday it might not begin its' journey until Tuesday.
I checked emptying time of my nearest post-box. 1 collection Monday-Friday 9 a.m. I normally post things when I'm going to the shop beside it or when passing it en route elsewhere. I seldom go out specially to post something unless it's urgent. If I'd posted a census return on Monday it wouldn't have begun its' journey until Tuesday morning. The earliest delivery day would be Wednesday.
Our local post office closed a couple of years ago. It was replaced by a post office counter in a shop on the main road. There's no post-box outside as there was at the original post office. I've rarely gone into that shop in the past year as it's too busy and cramped for my comfort.
I suspect Gillg's caller was a scammer. If he was genuine it was a waste of taxpayers' money. I suggest Gillg informs local council, neighbourhood police, and local community group.
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We had our reminder letter today!! Posted the completed form on Monday 22nd. If "push comes to shove" then we have scanned copies of our pages.
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Hi
My husband applied for and got the job of Census Officer, they all started on the Tuesday after the 21st so I'd guess he was a genuine caller. I think they might have started a little later and let the census returned by post come in but ONS very keen. He is working the next 4 weeks or so in contacting people and trying to help them complete or return the census. No pressure, genuinely there to help.
After that there will be another swathe of officers and non compliance officers.
Not had too much abuse so far, couple of dodgy dogs though!
But I agree, watch out for scams.
Cathy
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Completed our paper census form on Sunday (21st) and posted it Monday morning at the village post office and got proof of posting (well, you never know). This afternoon (Tuesday) a young man in a hi-vis jacket emblazoned with the words "Census 2021" knocked on our door, saying that according to records we hadn't yet submitted our census form. We were, of course, able to reassure him that it had been posted and he said he had found that a lot of people had chosen to complete the paper forms.
Beware all census dodgers. Big Brother is watching you!
Today received a reminder letter from the census office, telling us that we hadn't submitted our form and issuing the £1000 threat, also giving us yet another reference code (we had one for the online form and another for the paper form). I'm so glad I got the proof of posting from the post office and would be on the phone now giving them a blast, but it's Saturday and I don't suppose there'll be anyone there. Can't argue with a recorded message satisfactorily, can you? What will be their next move, I wonder?
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Seems to me that there is a lot of money being wasted. Why didn't they wait at least a week before sending out reminders. With the state of the post at the moment it could take at least a week for a census form to reach the ONS.
Also if they are issuing different codes for paper and online, it must mean that someone has to cross check addresses to make sure it hasn't been completed twice!
I have a feeling they will decide it is too much trouble, expense and waste of time, so this will be the last census as we know it. It will be easier to collect information from other sources.
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I, too, was concerned at the amount of money being spent unnecessarily on this project. For a paper form to be processed would take some time, certainly not just a couple of days before firing off a reminder. I was surprised that there were different codes used for the same address, too. That would surely make matters even more complicated.
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If I lived in England and was visited by a census person this week I would have told her/him that the census return was in the post and then closed the door. It's not my fault the Post Office cut frequency of collections & deliveries and closed premises. I probably wouldn't have answered the door. Bell doesn't work. If I spot someone going door-to-door I'd suspect them to be election canvassers - another reason not to speak to them.
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I made a point in a previous 2021 Census topic - who is the big 'cheese' who has overall responsibility for the operation? Then we would know first-hand, who is to blame for the c***-up with over zealous reminders. BTW, doesn't a suggestion (taken as a threat) of £1000 fine amount to harassment if they haven't checked the household requested a paper form? Let's hope Lord (Ian) Botham on the cross benches takes up the case - he's had tremendous success with getting the BBC to rescind their threats to over 75's refusing to pay for former free tv licenses.
PS Got my reminder letter today and it went straight into the shredder.
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Today I received a census reminder in the post, later in the afternoon I saw a man in the street dressed like Gillg described, he was looking at a clipboard then knocked at my door. He told me that he was from the ONS, when he asked about my form I told him I'd posted it on Monday. He put some details into his electronic device. I commented that they've started a bit early, he said that quite a number of people have said that they only received their form today. I was quite happy that he was genuine (and I have a suspicious nature!) . When I thought about it afterwards I realised it was actually Tuesday when I posted it, not Monday. Oh well.
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I requested a paper census 10 days before the day. Nothing had arrived by the Sunday so did it all on-line.
If the paper census does ever turn up, I will let you all know.
Regards
Chas
Our paper copy arrived yesterday. Our post lately has been dire, different postman every day and neighbours receiving each others mail.
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I requested a paper census 10 days before the day. Nothing had arrived by the Sunday so did it all on-line.
If the paper census does ever turn up, I will let you all know.
Regards
Chas
Our paper copy arrived yesterday. Our post lately has been dire, different postman every day and neighbours receiving each others mail.
Seven days later and still nothing. My wife and I take it in turns (every 15 minutes) to check the mailbox hanging on the back of the door.
Oh cruel fate!
Nothing - even junk mail would give some relief ...
Regards
Chas
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Tsk, tsk. ONS. Summing up for me, I applied for a paper form 11th March. Nothing arrived by Friday19th, so I sent THEM a reminder. Little was I to know it would be delivered Saturday morning(20th). Form posted Sunday pm(21st). Then, Wednesday last, the second one arrived - I shall keep that as a souvenir. I've already had a reminder letter the form was still outstanding, but was it for the first one, or the second!?
ONS and no doubt, the highly paid civil servant in charge, had 10 years to get the system in-gear, so that they recorded on their database when a household had requested and supplied with a paper form. Presumably, he/she will soon be quietly retired and given a 'Gong' in appreciation.
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If I lived in England and was visited by a census person this week I would have told her/him that the census return was in the post and then closed the door. It's not my fault the Post Office cut frequency of collections & deliveries and closed premises. I probably wouldn't have answered the door. Bell doesn't work. If I spot someone going door-to-door I'd suspect them to be election canvassers - another reason not to speak to them.
Another reason not to answer the door to unexpected callers is to limit face-to-face contact with people, as we've been ordered to do for the past year. I'd consider a visit from a census official a day after I'd posted the census return, or even during that week, to be unnecessary contact, as well as excess officialdom bordering on harassment.
There may be targets for the organisers to hit. I'll blame it on targets and algorithms; common-sense goes out the window.
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The man who came to my door was wearing a mask and he stood well back from the door. Luckily I knew who he was from Gillg's description, if I think someone is selling something I just ignore them, both now and pre pandemic times.
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We’ve had the Green Party rep call here yesterday ringing the doorbell. She wasn’t wearing a mask as she was outdoors and did step back as I answered the door. However I wasn’t impressed ..... is it just me?
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I filled out my census form last Monday. I planned to take this to the post office on Wednesday gone as I wanted to get certificate of posting as proof. However, on Tuesday night I had a card posted through the door - someone had obviously called around when I was out. The card was a reminder that my form had still not been received. This also related that someone would call around again in a couple of days if I did not submit my form and there was a reminder about the up to a £1,000 fine.
I thought, blimey they are quick off the mark. I thought posting just a few days after might have been acceptable. Perhaps they should have made it clearer if they expected the form to be received the day after the census.
As it turned out I couldn't get a certificate of posting as the lady behind the post office counter said there is no post code and therefore one couldn't be given.
There is no sign though that I have had any more callers from the census people so I think they must have my form.
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River Tyne Lass. Since my previous post I looked up Census 2021 Parliamentary documents on House of Commons Library online. The Census 2021 field team were to be deployed from Tuesday 23rd March. ONS were expecting 75% of population to complete returns online. I suppose efforts are being concentrated on the remaining 25%. I got the impression that the purpose was to encourage compliance and offer assistance if required but words which come to my mind are "saturation" and "overkill".
Scotland census has been postponed to next year. I certainly wouldn't have been queuing at a post office counter for a certificate of posting last week. Last time I was in the little shop which has a post office counter, a couple came in who weren't wearing face-coverings; shop is on main road and gets a lot of passing trade, physical distancing inside shop is difficult.
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We’ve had the Green Party rep call here yesterday ringing the doorbell. She wasn’t wearing a mask as she was outdoors and did step back as I answered the door. However I wasn’t impressed ..... is it just me?
She was a potential politician, seeking to con you. Even they should be fully aware of the proprieties, but politicians go by whatever means they can get you on their side :-X :-X :-X :-X
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My census return check-up man wasn't wearing a mask, RTL. I am half expecting another call from the same source, as I can't believe that a form posted on Monday last would have been processed within a few days. If someone calls again I shall be making a complaint about harassment. It feels like more pressure to do everything online. We should be able to make a choice about how we do things (cheque/cash payments rather than online, for example). Let's hope the vaccine passport is available on paper as well as those wretched apps.
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Yes, I agree Gillyg, I would prefer that we have a choice in things. Not everyone has the internet or apps after all.
(Recently at a local bus station a notice went up telling people to check online for revised bus timetables. Some one wrote on the notice asking what those are meant to do if they have no internet. Fair point. I saw a staff member tear this down after looking at the message.)
I can understand, I suppose, that they want the census information fast but I hadn't expected someone coming around only two days after the census to chase things up and a card to say they would call around again in two days if necessary and a reminder of the fine. Perhaps, this might be meant as a helpful thing but it felt to me a bit of a Big Brother/Gestapo element to it.
They don't appear to have been around since so I wonder if the little scanner part that has to be shown in the envelope window might send a message to the government via the post office that the form is on its way? Or might that be too much of a Big Brother concept? I wouldn't be surprised though.
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Scratch that idea of mine that a message might be relayed to the government via the postal process.
I have just received a letter now in the post stating that they have noticed I have still not submitted my census yet. I have! Last Wednesday!
More warnings of the fine. However, this does go on to say if I have submitted last week to ignore the letter.
Hopefully, they will notice that I have submitted the form soon and this might finally be the end of it. :-\
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It would be tempting to send them a Nasty Letter complaining that they STILL had not processed your census form. Inform them that dealing with any further correspondence or visits will incur your usual consultancy rates of £1000 per hour or part thereof. ;D
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It's about time someone asked the ONS why they are wasting money chasing up forms that are more than likely in the post.
I wonder if we will ever find out how many people are actually fined? To do that I presume they will have to take people to court and that will cost even more money!
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Andrew ... that made me laugh! ;D ;D ;D
Regarding chasing up the census, I think it is almost like they have gone into panic mode about it .. sending out people to people's doors only a day or two after and as you say, Groom, wasting money sending out chase up letters when the forms may very well be in the post or perhaps with them and just not processed yet.
I hope they do get around to processing mine soon which was sent last Wednesday. I think I will be on tenterhooks now waiting to see if I get any more visits or letters in the interim.
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Just let me know who Parliament's "People's Champion" is and I'm write them a strongly worded letter on the topic.
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Just let me know who Parliament's "People's Champion" is and I'm write them a strongly worded letter on the topic.
Everyone who has been receiving unwarranted reminders should complain to their MP and to the Taxpayers' Alliance.
I suppose the money saved by encouraging majority to do census online can be spent on "encouraging" the remainder.
Imo people's mental health is bad enough at present without unnecessary stress from a government body sending threatening letters and cards. They are like an over-zealous sheepdog, one who has only a small flock to spend his energy on.
Also, paper has been saved by promoting online completion but is now being wasted by reminder letters.
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Now that's a good idea, Maiden Stone! We have a new helpful MP who actually writes personally in answer to your queries, unlike the former, now retired one, who just got some minion to fire off a standard letter/email saying it wasn't his department. Of course it could be a minion who sends the personal replies for the new chap, but they are helpful and to the point. It does seem like a waste of paper and overzealous energy to send reminders so speedily, not to mention a waste of taxpayers' money. I'm all for keeping paper communication (and cash) in circulation for those who can't or don't want to cope with online activity.
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Our papers hadn't arrived by the Census date so we phoned and they said they would send more.
Papers arrived on the Thursday and were posted on the Friday. On Monday we had the reminder letter my husband was annoyed!! Today 1st April we had the second batch.
It certainly is April Fools Day.
rayard.
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Regarding chasing up the census, I think it is almost like they have gone into panic mode about it .. sending out people to people's doors only a day or two after and as you say, Groom, wasting money sending out chase up letters when the forms may very well be in the post or perhaps with them and just not processed yet.
I hope they do get around to processing mine soon which was sent last Wednesday. I think I will be on tenterhooks now waiting to see if I get any more visits or letters in the interim.
Your comments seem to be spot-on. News coverage this week. Harassing pensioners, threatening them with fines, according to one newspaper.
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Had a couple of cards put through my door while I was out on Saturday, claiming I hadn't filled in the Census. Apparently I have had more than one visit trying to chase up the details.
I rang the number provided, and yes, the person could see that the job was complete, with the correct number of inhabitants. No details, they said, but enough to confirm.
I don't know how they can confuse my address with any other. There are exactly 3 properties in the postcode, the closest of which has a number 22 higher than mine. All of us have house numbers prominently displayed.
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Scotland have postponed our Census until 2022
How odd considering 'online' is used for almost everything these days, including voting i.e. Covid shouldn't really affect anything to do with the census ???
Annie
I think it is a lot more to do with the fact that the staff who would usually process and analyse it are redeployed at the moment.
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Hello All! Just dropping by to say that our 2021 Census in Canada has also taken place (assuming we all did it) on May 11th. I was good, and did mine fairly quickly. Fortunately, I got the 'short' version which took about 5 minutes. Others weren't so lucky, and spent almost 1 hour completing the 'long' version. All online with a code to enter. If online was not for you, there was a 1-800 number to call to have a paper version sent out.
Some complaining that the short version is much too short (it was changed by PM Stephen Harper) and the long version borders on intrusion! Ah well. Hopefully in 100 years, no one will really care... LOL
Cheers from across the pond
Ms_C
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Pharma. all these complaints anent the Census confirm that the decision to delay Scotland's census was the right one!
Skoosh.
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The 2021 Isle of Man census was postponed until 30th May.
However residents were given access to the online forms from 25th May, and these forms remain available until 14th June.
Residents are strongly encouraged to use the online service; but paper forms are available.
Did mine during the last week in May. :D
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Regarding chasing up the census, I think it is almost like they have gone into panic mode about it .. sending out people to people's doors only a day or two after and as you say, Groom, wasting money sending out chase up letters when the forms may very well be in the post or perhaps with them and just not processed yet.
I hope they do get around to processing mine soon which was sent last Wednesday. I think I will be on tenterhooks now waiting to see if I get any more visits or letters in the interim.
Your comments seem to be spot-on. News coverage this week. Harassing pensioners, threatening them with fines, according to one newspaper.
Apparently it was a technical problem. Computer's fault!
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Ours is out of date already, we have sold that house and just moved into a bungalow ;D
Carol
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A census is a snapshot of who was where on a particular date.
So, your return isn't out-of-date - it still shows accurately where you were on the date in question.
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A census is a snapshot of who was where on a particular date.
So, your return isn't out-of-date - it still shows accurately where you were on the date in question.
Exactly, which is why people often think children aren't living with parents, when in fact they may just have been with grandparents overnight.
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My 3xgreat grandfather was in the Bishop Auckland area in 1881 at the time of the census, he went to America in 1886, returned in about 1890, is on the 1891 census in St Helen Auckland, so it seems he never left the country, or even the local area. In 1892, he went back to the US, this time for keeps. Lots of journies across the Atlantic.
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A census is a snapshot of who was where on a particular date.
So, your return isn't out-of-date - it still shows accurately where you were on the date in question.
That was a "Tongue in Cheek" remark KG. ;)
Carol
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Lots of journeys across the Atlantic.
It's not just censuses which can mislead in this way.
I had followed my great grandfather's many siblings as far as the 1901 census, when he was 21. Because he was 13th of 14, I believed that things were quite stable. by then.
One of his sisters had a son locally in 1905, so he was added to the tree. I expected the family still to be living locally when the 1911 census was released.
Only later did I find that several of the siblings had emigrated to Nova Scotia, and that son had been born while his family had been on a visit back to the UK. In fact, all the emigrants did well in the new world, and could afford trips "home" aplenty. The passenger lists have loads of mentions.