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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: GeoffTurner on Tuesday 02 March 21 02:55 GMT (UK)

Title: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Tuesday 02 March 21 02:55 GMT (UK)
Hi all,
My cousin is trying to get more information on her ancestor Adam Tomasz Alexander Xavery Grzybowski, who emigrated from the Continent to Scotland and married Maria White Irving Bremner (1808-1877) in Edinburgh on 24 Dec 1834. The 1841 Scottish Census indicates he was born about 1806 in Poland, which may have been part of Prussia at that stage. It appears Adam and Maria had three children -- Uladislaus Adam Grzybowski Bremner (1835–1897), George Grzybowski Bremner (1842–1924), and Harriet Mary Bremner (1844–1882), with the children all taking their mother's surname. We have not been able to find Adam's death. When Maria died in 1877 at Leith she is described as "widow of Adam Grzybowski, surgeon". But the 1851 Census does not have Adam living with Maria and the children, and there is a suggestion he may have gone to the US. As always, any help greatly appreciated. I am in Australia and don't have access to Polish or US information.
Geoff Turner
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Tuesday 02 March 21 05:11 GMT (UK)
There is a marriage in East London in 1848 between Adam Grzybowski and Harriet Sarah Chance. It's possible he ran off and married again bigamously, which is why he is not with his wife and children in the 1951 Census. An earlier reply to a question about Harriet Chance says they had a child in France in 1849, were in the US (Missouri) for the 1850 census, and had another child in the US in 1852 (poss New York). Then Harriet and the children were back in London later in 1852 where the second child was baptised and Harriet was calling herself a widow. If that is the same Adam, he seems to have died in the US in 1851-52. But the surname Grzybowski is apparently not uncommon. Geoff
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Tuesday 02 March 21 05:29 GMT (UK)
Here's that 1850 census record:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qd6/
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Tuesday 02 March 21 05:52 GMT (UK)
Well that confirms it was a Polish physician who married Harriet Sarah Chance, so I think we now know Adam was a bigamist, leaving his first wife and three kids in Scotland while he explored the world -- marrying in London, having a daughter in France, then heading to the US. All we need now is his death in the US in 1851-52 and the birth of the second child, probably early in 1852.

Thanks for all your help. My cousin has been trying to solve this problem for some time, bit she didn't know about the friendly service and great skills of the Rootschat community!!!

Geoff   
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Tuesday 02 March 21 06:04 GMT (UK)
I wonder what the heck he was doing in rural Perry County, Missouri?  Maybe he entered the US at New Orleans and was working his way up the Mississippi.  I haven't found him on a passenger list, though.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Tuesday 02 March 21 06:31 GMT (UK)
He must have had itchy feet. Born in Poland 1806-1812, depending which Census you believe, married in Edinburgh in 1834, fathered three Scottish children 1835-1844, married bigamously in London 1848, child born in France in 1849, on that US Census in 1850. The other researcher thought the other child might have been born in New York early in 1852 and baptised in London late in 1852, by which time Dr Adam was dead. I wonder if he worked himself into the ground -- or if his Scottish wife's family caught up with him!!
Geoff
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Tuesday 02 March 21 06:36 GMT (UK)
"by which time Dr Adam was dead"

Either that or he dumped his second wife, assumed a new name and headed for the gold fields or something.  I haven't found his death or the birth of the second child.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Tuesday 02 March 21 07:33 GMT (UK)
I guess I was just going by the comment on an earlier post that his second wife was described as a widow when she baptised the second child in London. That poster thought the child might have been born in New York, so it sounds as though she didn't find the US birth either.

Geoff
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Tuesday 02 March 21 18:28 GMT (UK)
This is a lengthy article on Polish Masons in Britain and their activities as political/artistic/academic emigrés.  I did not read it carefully; just skimmed it.  To read the whole thing, you have to register with JSTOR [it's free].  Adam Grzybowski is mentioned on pages 21, 24 and 37; I am guessing that he is your man.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25776901?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Tuesday 02 March 21 19:32 GMT (UK)
A few other mentions of Dr. Grzybowski.  Note that he was listed as a member of the Royal College of Surgeons of England up until at least 1888.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qdi/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qdg/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qdf/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qdh/
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Tuesday 02 March 21 22:23 GMT (UK)
It appears the second child was another girl, Sophia Jane (sometimes just Jane). On the 1861 England Census it says she was born 1852 in New York and was a visitor at the home, so perhaps there was an informal fostering arrangement. She married in the October quarter in 1879.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Tuesday 02 March 21 23:46 GMT (UK)
Is it Harriet Sarah or her daughter Harriet Junior who got married in 1871?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DL4-GBG
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Wednesday 03 March 21 00:00 GMT (UK)
I think Harriet junior’s second initial was E and she married a man named William Frederick Snow on 5 Feb 1872 at St Olave, Bermonsey. So it would be the widow Harriet marrying John Lee at Shoreditch in 1871. She was Harriet Lee when she died in 1874, aged just 43, after what seems to have been quite an eventual, if short, life.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Wednesday 03 March 21 02:28 GMT (UK)
I've had no luck finding any reference to these people in the United States aside from the 1850 census.  Still, I can't shake the suspicion that Adam did not die in 1852 but, rather, did a disappearing act under a new name.  Is there any way to check whether his wife petitioned to have him declared dead after the requisite time had passed?
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Wednesday 03 March 21 03:01 GMT (UK)
I'll have to look into that. The first (and perhaps only legitimate) wife, Maria in Scotland, went to the grave as Mrs Grzybowski, widow of the surgeon Adam Grzybowski. I think the Jane Grzybowski who appears on the 1861 English Census is Adam and Harriet's second child, who also appears in other documents as Sophia Jane. She is 9 and a "visitor" at the house of a family named Taile or something (the transcription suggests Suh but I don't think that is right). There is an old carpenter and his wife, their adult children (a dressmaker and engineer), and Jane Grzybowski the visitor, who it says was born in New York about 1852.
When Harriet Chance married John Lee in 1871 she gave her name as Harriet Sarah Grzybowski, so was presumably passing herself off as a widow. I don't know if there would have been a lot of questions asked about a first husband dying in the US. And if there were questions, it might not seem unreasonable that she did not have his death certificate, given the sophistication of communications at the time. After all, Adam presumably declared himself a bachelor to marry Harriet in 1848, despite having a wife and three children in Edinburgh.   
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Wednesday 03 March 21 03:11 GMT (UK)
"if there would have been a lot of questions asked"

Probably not.  I have a case [my g-grandmother who, as it happens, was also recorded as a "visitor" in an unrelated household] where questions were not asked in 1869 and then were not asked again in 1885.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Wednesday 03 March 21 03:21 GMT (UK)
Sophia Jane Bentley (nee Grzybowski) died in Bristol in 1912 aged 60, so that backs up the 1852 birth date. If Adam had done his disappearing act and Harriet had Sophia in New York virtually on her way home to England, she might not have been too worried about the legal niceties of registering the birth in the US. We know from the other researcher that she didn't baptise the baby until after the Atlantic crossing, although I haven't located the baptism myself. I have alerted the other researcher to this thread, by the way.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Wednesday 03 March 21 03:25 GMT (UK)
Sophia Jane was baptised at Holy Trinity, Marylebone Road,  London, on 12 Dec 1852.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Wednesday 03 March 21 03:35 GMT (UK)
Just on the off chance that Adam died in Perry County, Missouri, it might be worth contacting the local historical society to see if they have any records of it.

https://perrycountyhistoricalsociety.com/index/archives-2/
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Wednesday 03 March 21 03:45 GMT (UK)
Can't hurt. I'll fire off an email to them. He may even have been working there as a locum or something.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: davecapps on Wednesday 03 March 21 18:54 GMT (UK)
just in case you don´t have this Info.

He was a member of the Polish National Lodge in London, Kensington
Initiated in 1847, Grzybowski, Adam, aged 37, St Thomas`s Hospital, Surgeon

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60620/images/43970_ugl%5Eln%5Eb%5E1837-00273?pId=1581339

Regards
Dave
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 04 March 21 01:35 GMT (UK)
On that basis his birth year would be about 1810. I'm told (although I haven't been able to check) that the 1841 Scotland Census says he was born in Poland about 1806. The 1850 US Census (which we have) says he was born in Poland about 1812. Since his second wife was born in 1827, he would have had every incentive to be passing himself off as a younger man, I guess. But we may never find an official birth/baptism record, as Poland was partitioned several times in the period 1805-1815, with maps redrawn each time, so records might be scarce. His Scottish marriage was in Dec 1834. If he was born 1812, he would have had to get his medical degree in Berlin, move to Edinburgh and find a wife by the age of 22, which seems unlikely.

I'm hoping that the Perry County people might be able to tell us more about his death, which is also open-ended at this stage.

Geoff
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Thursday 04 March 21 01:51 GMT (UK)
I cannot find this family on any passenger list but the record keeping was pretty haphazard in that time period.  One possibility is that he entered the United States from Canada.  I have two ancestral families who entered from Canada in 1849 but there is no record of their arrival.  People just showed up at the border and came on in.

Since his daughter was born in France shortly before they emigrated, I'm guessing that they sailed from there or from some other continental port.  Do French shipping lists exist?
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 04 March 21 02:11 GMT (UK)
This does not look promising: "During the 1800s most French and south German emigrants left through the port of Le Havre. The only lists available for Le Havre are lists of crews and passengers on some commercial cargo vessels. They are very incomplete. Very few passengers sailed on cargo ships. Passenger vessels are not included. These lists are not indexed."

I liked the France-New Orleans-up the Mississippi theory better. Canada seems to add an unnecessary degree of complexity. Perry County is a fair way upriver but still a long way from Canada. I don't know what French passenger record-keeping was like in 1850 but I think the facts on the US Census identify him as Polish-born, his wife as English-born and his daughter as French-born, which tells the story without us having to join the dots. 
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Thursday 04 March 21 02:24 GMT (UK)
I don't have access to this:

https://www.findmypast.com/articles/world-records/full-list-of-united-states-records/immigration-and-travel/new-orleans-passenger-lists-1846-1851
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 04 March 21 02:50 GMT (UK)
You can search for free but have to pay to join up to see the documents. It has his London marriage etc (which you can see for a fee) but nothing that we don't already have. Nothing in the New Orleans arrivals for any of them, no matter how many wildcards I use. But nothing for them arriving anywhere else, for that matter.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 04 March 21 04:36 GMT (UK)
When his sons married in 1861 and 1864, they both described their father as a lieutenant in the Polish Army (deceased). But that could be just because he had disappeared from the first family's lives, I guess.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: davecapps on Thursday 04 March 21 14:57 GMT (UK)
Found on Ancestry.

https://www.ancestry.de/discoveryui-content/view/225904:7484?tid=&pid=&queryId=3b12e2a911530563958df87934c4066e&_phsrc=OwY13&_phstart=successSource

Name:    Adam Grzybowsky
Arrival Date:    21 Dec 1849
Port of Arrival:    New Orleans, United States
Birth Date:    abt 1814
Birth Place:    Pologne
Age:    35
Port of Departure: Le Havre, France
Ship Name: Manchester
Last Residence: Pologne
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Thursday 04 March 21 17:21 GMT (UK)
Good job!

Presumably he traveled upriver by steamboat and was headed for St. Louis which was a boom town and also the jumping off point for people going out to California.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 04 March 21 21:29 GMT (UK)
Amazing find. Poland as last place of residence is interesting. It suggests Adam took his wife back to Poland after marrying in London, and baby Harriett was born in France on their way to Le Havre to catch the ship. The US Census was taken on 1 Jun 1850, so they were in Missouri six months after their arrival in New Orleans. To my mind that suggests rather slow progress up the river.  And that's the latest of the four birth dates we have for him now!
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Thursday 04 March 21 22:22 GMT (UK)
I'm suspicious of this guy.  Granted, Grzybowski and Grabowski seem to be pretty common Polish surnames but not so much in Missouri in the 1850s.   St. Charles is a suburb of St. Louis; about 125km north of Perry County.  And he was a physician.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V2DJ-W57
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qdt/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qds/
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/71447752/julian-grabowski
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 04 March 21 22:58 GMT (UK)
The Census was five months, not six months, after their arrival in New Orleans, to correct an earlier remark I made.

Our man's full name was Adam Tomasz Alexander Xavery Grzybowski, so I am not sure where the Julian would have come from. But a Polish physician in that part of the world would not have been common, you'd think. I guess Grabowski might have been an attempt to make his name more easily pronounced, and he might have chosen Julian Arthur as "Anglicised" given names. If the marriage to Harriet broke up in 1851, with her having Sophia in New York early in 1852 before baptising her in London late in 1852, calling herself a widow to explain the lack of a husband/father, that would leave the doctor free to marry again (another bigamous marriage to an even younger woman) in Sep 1853.   
The change of name would explain why we couldn't find his death under the original name. The children of this third marriage were born from 1854 to 1870.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Thursday 04 March 21 23:08 GMT (UK)
Here's a tree for Julian:

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/97MY-LVY
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 04 March 21 23:32 GMT (UK)
It’s a pity there wasn’t a son named Adam. That would firm things up. But I suppose if the reason he changed his name was to cover his tracks, then it might have been wise to not leave clues like that. The birth date of 1818 is the latest yet, but he had already gone from 1806 to 1814 by the time he got to New Orleans.

I see that tree has him fathering children up to 1880, when he apparently had twins.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Thursday 04 March 21 23:53 GMT (UK)
That tree was apparently started by someone named vgrabowski in 2015.  There have since been updates by other people.  You could try sending a message to vgrabowski or the others to see if they know anything more about how Julian came to be in Missouri.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 04 March 21 23:59 GMT (UK)
I’ll do that. If this is the right guy, I fear the Perry County people aren’t going to be able to help me, since he would have moved on before dying, and probably just happened to be staying there the night of the Census. But the Rootschat inquiry has been very productive, thanks to people such as you.

Geoff
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Friday 05 March 21 00:19 GMT (UK)
Julian and his family wound up in Scotland County, Missouri [near the NE corner of the state].  They had a 40 acre farm NW of the village of Memphis [in section 16 of Miller Twsp.].  The plat maps and other Scotland County information are here:

https://www.scotland.mogenweb.org/

I don't see any website for a county historical society but there is a public library.  They might be worth a try.

https://scotland.lib.mo.us/
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Friday 05 March 21 00:38 GMT (UK)
I had a chuckle when I saw that grave was in Scotland. The better-known Scotland is presumably where his first family was, if we have the right guy. The one he had before the two apparently bigamous marriages. I haven't worked out how to contact the person responsible for that tree yet, although I did find the register page listing the 1853 marriage. How did you get the name for the author of the tree?
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Friday 05 March 21 01:09 GMT (UK)
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/97MY-LVY

Click on 'Dr. Julian Arthur Grabowski' in the tree.  Then, under his name click on 'Sources.'  In the right hand column there's a list of people who have contributed to the tree.  You can send them a message by clicking on their names.

I hope he's the right guy [and that it can be convincingly demonstrated] but it could just be a weird coincidence.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Friday 05 March 21 15:46 GMT (UK)
I wonder if Julian Grabowski ever got a Missouri medical license and, if so, what background information he provided?   It looks like the Missouri State Board of Health started issuing licenses in 1883.  I sent them an email to inquire.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Maid of Kent on Friday 05 March 21 19:10 GMT (UK)
on Adam and Harriets marriage lines his father's name is given as Peter and he is a barrister. Is this the same as Adam and  Maria's marriage lines in Scotland. Thus making sure it really is the same man.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Friday 05 March 21 22:34 GMT (UK)
Thanks, Erato. I can see this fellow has you intrigued. As for the Scottish marriage details, Maid of Kent, I can't access them from Australia but a cousin in Scotland might be able to help.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Friday 05 March 21 22:49 GMT (UK)
The FamilySearch record of the Scottish marriage gives Maria's father but not Adam's father. There is no image available. But I think we are pretty sure these two marriages are the same man. The name is the same. He is in the masonic lodge in Edinburgh and then London. His last child in Edinburgh is born in 1844 and he appears in London in 1847. But I will see if my Scottish cousin can add anything. I'm pretty certain we know his story as far as Perry County, Missouri, in 1850. It's the jump from there to the marriage in St Charles in 1853 that remains a leap of faith at this stage.
Geoff
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Friday 05 March 21 23:02 GMT (UK)
"I can see this fellow has you intrigued"

I like tracking the slippery ones.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Saturday 06 March 21 00:52 GMT (UK)
I looked for Julian Grabowski in Ancestry trees. He sounds like a different guy. Those trees have him born 29 Oct 1818 in Radcze, Lubelskie, Poland. His father is Francis Ludwig Von Grabowski (1784-1851) and his mother is Anna Christina Pohlmann (1786-1871). I have taken that from a tree that has pictures of Julian Grabowski and Margaret Wiley, so that looks pretty reliable.

I think that means we are back to wondering what happened to Adam in Perry County after the 1 Jun 1850 Census that sent Harriet scurrying back to London, giving birth to Sophia in New York on the way home.

Geoff
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Saturday 06 March 21 05:23 GMT (UK)
Back to the drawing boards, then.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Saturday 06 March 21 05:37 GMT (UK)
Yep. We still have my inquiry to the Perry County Historical Society as a possible source of more information, if they reply. That's if he died and Harriet was truly a widow, as she claimed back in London. But if he deserted Harriet and headed for the goldfields under a new name, we might have to accept the trail going cold on us. 
Geoff
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Saturday 06 March 21 06:11 GMT (UK)
I've had pretty good luck with small town libraries.  The librarians seem pleased that someone [especially a foreigner!] is interested in their podunk village and go out of their way to be helpful.  So I think Perry County will answer with whatever information they have, if any.  If he changed his name, it's practically hopeless except maybe for a DNA link-up.  If he died somewhere under his own name, he may eventually turn up as more records become available [death registers, Find-a-Grave, newspapers].

Maybe he deserted her but it's also possible that she deserted him.  I can see how a London girl might have been unimpressed with life in Perry County.  Even now Brazeau is described as an unincorporated community [pop. 23] which "once boasted a general store, a bank, and a John Deere dealership."  Maybe she just said, "Enough!  I'm going home."
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: davecapps on Sunday 07 March 21 12:54 GMT (UK)
this is a link to the Digital Library of Poznan

https://www.wbc.poznan.pl/dlibra/show-content/publication/edition/211937?id=211937#dcId=1615116827461&p=1

some sort of official document (in Polish) in Scotland dealing with money
-------------------------------------
He could have originated from the Poznan area
http://poznan-project.psnc.pl/index.php?lang=en
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: davecapps on Sunday 07 March 21 17:40 GMT (UK)
Here´s a translation of the Polish text

November 19, 1839, Tuesday
Mr. Grzyboski,
Please go to the Royal Bank of Scotland and withdraw two pounds sterling, which I have deposited in your name with the local bankers, Messrs. Coutts & Co. [?].
This money, intended for you, was sent to me by Mr. Karol Sienkiewicz from Paris.
After withdrawal, please send me a receipt confirming you have received the money.
In the receipt, please state explicitly that you received the two pounds sterling sent to you through me, by Mr Sienkiewicz.
Should the banker ask who the money was sent by answer with Niedźwiedzki
Write the receipt exactly as I described above.

With best regards
Niedźwiedzki, servant
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Sunday 07 March 21 21:26 GMT (UK)
And it is addressed to Adam at Mr Bremner's house in Edinburgh. Adam's first wife Maria's maiden name was Bremner, so he is living with his in-laws. Definitely our man.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 18 March 21 23:04 GMT (UK)
Poznan genealogist Dr Lukasz Bielecki was unable to locate a birth record for Adam and warns again that Grzybowski is a fairly common name. He saw nothing in that letter held in the Digital Library of Poznan that ties Adam to the region. In his words, "I do not think there is any hint they were in Poznan. You probably allude to the fact that the letter that you sent me a link to, is presently in possession of a historic library near Poznan City, but its author was born in East Poland, was located in Parish when writing it, and the letter is a receipt of money from A. Grzybowski and does not say anything else of worth." He does not offer an explanation for why it would be in a Poznan library if not connected with the area.

So in the absence of online BDM records for Poland/Prussia, I guess the only remaining hope would be to find a list of medical graduates from Berlin which might have Adam's name and his place of origin, but I have not been able to find such a list.

My cousins were hoping they could visit Poland to see where their great great grandfather was born. I'm not sure we have firmed that up enough yet. 

But we certainly know a lot more about Adam thanks to the contributions from Rootschatters, so thank you, one and all.

Geoff
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: davecapps on Friday 19 March 21 11:19 GMT (UK)
Geoff
I still think the best bet would be to contact the Freemason Lodges he Was a member of.
People joining the honourable society would  definately state true facts when joining
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Friday 19 March 21 11:25 GMT (UK)
Yes, I will try to hunt down contact details for them. Thanks for the thought.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Friday 19 March 21 12:37 GMT (UK)
The Edinburgh lodge is closed temporarily and the webpage is not working. I have written to the London lodge which seems to be quite active. Davecapps told me Adam was 37 when he joined that lodge in 1847. This came from a document I don't have access to on Ancestry (from Australia). On the "Wouldn't fib to an honourable society" theory that would mean 1810 is the most likely birth year.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Gaie on Friday 19 March 21 17:26 GMT (UK)
Hi

There is this birth reg baptism in Kraków:

Year:           1812
Record:        241
Name:         Adam Thomasz
Surname:    GRZYBOWSKI
Father:         Piotr
Mother:        Anna SOBOLEWSKA
Parish:         Kraków WNMP (Mariacki)
Place:           Kraków

A scan should be somewhere in here:

https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/14604773

WNMP (Mariacki) = Parish of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary

Gaie

Added:  The first son's name is probably Wladislaus
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Friday 19 March 21 21:13 GMT (UK)
That is interesting! It would explain why Lukasz couldn't find him at Poznan. I am a little unsure about the parish name, though. Parish of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary sounds Catholic to me. Would I be right to assume that? If he was baptised a Catholic, that does not sit terribly well with him being in freemasons' lodges in Scotland and England.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: davecapps on Friday 19 March 21 21:21 GMT (UK)
Here´s the entry in
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/14604773

scan 63, right hand side
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Friday 19 March 21 21:30 GMT (UK)
Thanks. The sure do go on a bit, 11 lines before they get to the child's name!
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Friday 19 March 21 21:36 GMT (UK)
Well, seven lines anyway. I'm still half asleep here in Australia lol.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: davecapps on Friday 19 March 21 21:55 GMT (UK)
can you get someone to translate the entry? I could post it in a German forum i´m a member of
Dave
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Friday 19 March 21 22:00 GMT (UK)
That would be very useful. My cousin knows someone who speaks Polish so I have suggested she run it past them. I have also sent it to Lukasz in Poznan, asking if it mentions anything about Piotr being a barrister, and asking about the parish. It is possible Adam was baptised a Catholic and was a Protestant by the time he reached the UK (and joined lodges) but less likely, I think.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Saturday 20 March 21 12:09 GMT (UK)
The genealogist Lukasz Bielecki in Poznan (who reads Polish, naturally) has some supportive comments for the Krakow baptism. I sent him the scan and asked particularly about Adam's later reference to his father as a barrister, and the denomination of the church. His prompt reply:
----
Of course it is a Catholic church. We had really very few native Polish Protestants (if we forget people of German descent, sometimes distant). I assume when he made his life in Scotland, he just joined the mainstream church that is in Scotland. I think being Catholic in Britain was still
hard those days.
This may be the right Adam Tomasz, son of Piotr. It is hard to believe such a combination would happen often, and the social position of the father seems adequate. Barrister might not necessarily have been meant in a super-strict sense, maybe more like someone into law generally. In this
particular record, Adam is listed as customs officer. But being a customs officer assumes some degree of education, maybe in law, so it is plausible. If the family were farmers or day laborers, I would also think it was just a coincidence of names.
The issue with the letter is just anecdotal. The library arose from a collection of books and other artefacts gathered by a Poznan based count in the 19th century. Maybe he acquired the letters of a Parisian Polish emigrant just because he found them relevant, and that's why this letter is now in Poznan.
-----
I'm willing to accept that this is our man, and have made that case to my cousin. Piotr might have been a customs officer in 1812 but have risen to something more like a barrister by 1842, when Adam gave him that title in his second marriage documents.
Geoff
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Gaie on Saturday 20 March 21 14:32 GMT (UK)
Hi Geoff

If this is the right Adam then there are some siblings baptised in the same parish:

1806
Dionizy Franciszek Napoleon

1808
Jan Nepomucem Ignacy

1809
Marianna Emilia Zuzanna

1812
Adam Tomasz, as detailed before

1814
Record 342
Tomasz

1814
Record 343
Wiktoria

Tomasz & Wiktoria on second to last scan:

https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/14604743?_Jednostka_delta=20&_Jednostka_resetCur=false&_Jednostka_cur=4

I haven't found births or a marriage for Piotr and Anna so far.

Gaie
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Saturday 20 March 21 20:09 GMT (UK)
That is very thorough of you, Gaie. I am not familiar with Polish names but I presume that Dionizy Franciszek would be a boy; Jan Nepomuceum Ignacy would be a boy; Marianna Emilia Zuzanna would be a girl; Adam and Tomascz are boys; and Wiktoria would be a girl. I also assume that Tomasz and Wiktoria must have been twins.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: davecapps on Sunday 21 March 21 17:22 GMT (UK)
Birth Adam - translation
He could´nt decipher Piotr´s profession.

notification:
December 11, 1812 at 3 p.m., in presence of the Vicar of the Church of the Virgin Mary, representative of the registrar of the Virgin Mary Parish in the Department of Kraków, Powiat and Kraków Municipality
notifying person (= father): gracious Mr. Piotr Grzybowski, ?., 40 years old, residing in Szpitalna street no. 564
A male child born in his residence on the 10th day of the current month and year at 4 a.m.
Mother: wife of the notifying person, Madam Anna, née Sobolewska (Sobolewski), 30 years old
name of the person to be baptized: Adam Tomasz
Witnesses: Mr. Wincenty Chorosiewicz, Secretary of the Municipality, 32 years old, residing at 393 Żydowska Street, and Mr. Jan Wilczyński, possessor, 45 years old, residing at 563 Szpitalna Street
Read to those appearing and signed by the priest and the persons mentioned above.
Signatures:
Piotr Grzybowski, Wincenty Chorosiewicz Secretary of the Municipal Office,
Jan Wilczyński
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Sunday 21 March 21 21:32 GMT (UK)
Thanks Davecapps. I found Szpitalna St, Krakow, in Google maps (there is a nightclub called Szpitalna 1 on that street) but it doesn't seem long enough to have a No. 564. Anyway, we now have the address, the day and the time of his birth. And the ages of his parents. And if my cousins want to go to Poland they can at least visit the street where he was born as well as the church where he was baptised.

Lucasz in Poznan said Piotr's profession was Customs officer, so that might have been a specific Polish word your friend didn't know.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Gaie on Monday 22 March 21 08:31 GMT (UK)
Piotr's occupation looks like assydent humory celny; celny is customs; an archaic term so customs officer is a good fit.

Piotr may have gone on to become a barrister but "promoting" one's parent to a better-sounding occupation / social position was common in the 19th century.  Are there any parental details on Adam's first marriage record?

Gaie
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Monday 22 March 21 09:10 GMT (UK)
I don’t have an image from the first marriage, in Edinburgh on 24 Dec 1834, but the FamilySearch transcript has her father listed, but not his. No professions.

Geoff
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 25 March 21 05:20 GMT (UK)
I now have the 1841 Census which gives the age of both Adam and Maria as 25, so born in 1816, not 1806. It also says both Adam and Maria were born in Poland, and we know Maria was born in Scotland. That seems a bit unreliable so I don't see that as any reason to discard the 1812 Krakow baptism, which fits roughly with the US Census, US arrival document and London lodge details.
We also raised the question of divorces in Scotland at this time. Maria's first cousin Jemima Saunders Robertson Bremner married a friend of Adam's, Soter Drelinkiewicz, on 19 Apr 1836; divorced him (at her insistence) on 25 Feb 1845; and then married her own cousin, James Grindlay Bremner, on 26 Feb 1948. There is no evidence that Maria and Adam were divorced -- Maria was described as Adam's widow on her death certificate. But it is handy to know it was possible, I guess.   Someone might have better luck than I did at reading this divorce listing, especially the fine print.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Gaie on Thursday 25 March 21 14:25 GMT (UK)
Hi Geoff

NOTE

A Decree of ? Divorce at the insistance
of the said J S R Bremner was pro:
        by the Lords of Council & Session
on 16th  .  Extraced on 26th Feby 1848
conf            extract produced            ...siding
& Declaring that she is loosed acquit
ed & freed of the marriage betwixt her
& the said Soter Drelinkiewicz & that it is
lawful for her to marry any other free person
whom she pleases in the same
manner as if she had never been
married, or as if the said Soter Drelinkiewicz
were               dead.


I'm not yet convinced that the right Adam has been found.  We could be looking at three different Adams !!! 

I looked at the transcription of the 1841 Census on FreeCEN: https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a151daff4040b9d6e29f447/adam-grzybouski-1841-midlothian-st-cuthbert-s-1816-?locale=en

Under occupation the transcript says "Government Allowance", not doctor.  Have you seen the original?  I wonder what government?  Regarding the ages, in the 1841 Census ages were supposed to be rounded down by five year intervals, so don't read too much into apparent discrepancies.  In 1851 Maria is shown as 43, and her parents as 75 and 66 (25, 60 & 50 respectively in 1841).

It's odd that Maria would be a dress-maker in the 1851 Census if her husband was a member of the Royal College of Surgeons and a freemason.  Where is Maria in 1861?  What was her marital status then?

I do not know whether there are signatures on the marriage between Adam and Maria, but if so it would be good to compare Adam's signature with the later marriage found in London.

The Ł2 sent to the known Adam came from Karol Sienkiewicz who was the joint founder of the Polish Library in Paris and was the private secretary of Prince Adam Czartoryski.  Many emigrated from Poland after the Uprising of November 1830, especially those who had been in the Polish army.  Did I read somewhere that Adam's occupation was given as something to do with the army on one of his children's marriages?  If he was friends with Soter, another army chap then it would make more sense for him to be army as well, rather than a doctor.  They both seem to have disappeared around the same time...

Adam the doctor who was a member of the Royal College of Surgeons was recorded in their Calendar as resident in Berlin until at least 1888.

Looking forward to the information from the Edinburgh Lodge!

Gaie
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Gaie on Thursday 25 March 21 15:44 GMT (UK)
Here they are in 1835:

https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qgd/

A dinner and speeches in Edinburgh for raising funds for Polish refugees, Adam and Soler (Soter?) listed as sub-lieutenants and invitees, though it does not go on to say if they actually attended (Prince Czartoryski did attend and speak).  Karol Sienkiewicz was not present but was heavily involved in the welfare of Polish refugees.

On page 48 there is a list of donors to the Fund for the Polish Exiles; I wonder if that would be the source of funds for the "Government Allowance" in the 1841 Census?

Gaie
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Gaie on Thursday 25 March 21 17:03 GMT (UK)
Have a look at the Polish Biographical Index:

https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qge/

In it you will find:

Drelinkiewicz Soter – auch (also or alias) Saturnin (c.1844-1854 - relevant dates), Demokrat (occupation) – Tyrowicz – F II 70, 302, and

Grzybowski, Adam (c.1844-1854 - relevant dates) Demokrat (occupation) – Tyrowicz F II 112, 16.

In 1964 Marian Tyrowicz published Towarzystwo Demokratyczne Polskie.  Przywodcy i kadry czlonkiwskie.  Przewodnik biobibliograficzny - Polish Democratic Society.  Leaders and members.  Bibliographic guide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Democratic_Society

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krak%C3%B3w_uprising

I wonder if Adam & Soter went back to Poland and joined in the Kraków Uprising?  It would explain their disappearances.

Gaie

Added:  I have visions of Pride and Prejudice when the dashing Polish cavalry officers descended on Edinburgh - the ladies must have swooned !!!  ::) ::)
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Gaie on Thursday 25 March 21 19:32 GMT (UK)
Aha!!!!

Baptism record

Year       1814
Record    134
Name     Soter Kajetan
Surname DRELINKIEWICZ
Father     (Sebastian on index) Kazimierz
Mother    Katarzyna BORKOWSKA
Parish     Kraków WNMP (Mariacki) - same parish as the previous record found for Adam

Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 25 March 21 22:12 GMT (UK)
Thanks Gaie, there's a lot there to take in.
There seems to be no reason that Adam could not have been a sub-lieutenant in the Polish army and a doctor at the same time. I know from my own father's experiences during World War II that his doctors were all officers.
The fact that Soter was baptised in Krakow in 1814 and Adam was his friend makes the Krakow baptism for Adam in 1812 more likely. I still think we might have just the one Adam Grzybowski here.
Thanks for the transcription of the "divorce" document. I should have called it an annulment, not a divorce, perhaps. But it shows it was possible to have a marriage dissolved in Scotland around that time. Soter must have done something pretty terrible for Jemima to win such an emphatic annulment, you would think.
Yes I now have a copy of the 1841 Census original. My cousin and I discussed the "Government allow" yesterday. We have no proof that he worked as a surgeon in Edinburgh before taking the job at St Thomas's in London, where he definitely was a surgeon. If he was living off donations to Polish emigres from wealthy backers, including nobles, it might have been easier to put "Government allow" in the limited space available. If Adam was not working as a doctor in Edinburgh, and we have no evidence that he was, then it would make sense that Maria was still working as a dressmaker. And we know that the letter about the money was sent to Adam at Maria's parents' home, so he had not set up a family in separate premises. And remember that by 1851 Adam was in London. He joined the lodge there in 1847 and married Harriet in 1848. So even if Maria had given up her dressmaking when she married, she might have needed to return to it by 1851. In 1848 Adam had married his young new wife, who perhaps was already pregnant, so might not have been sending much money (if any) back to Edinburgh.
I think the reference to Berlin is where Adam got his medical degree, not where he was living. You still see that on qualifications these days. And the listing on the Royal College of Surgeons Calendar probably stayed there until someone removed it, just as we sometimes find people on electoral rolls long after they are dead. It would not be something that you had to pay to keep renewing.
The 1841 Census is the only one I have, but I do have Maria's death certificate in 1877, aged 67, where she is described as "widow of Adam Grzybowski surgeon". I think that supports the theory that the Adam Grzybowski in Edinburgh who married Maria was the same Adam Grzybowski who was described as a surgeon at St Thomas's when he joined the Polish National Lodge in London in 1847 -- and who married Harriet. Unless the first marriage was annulled, and we have no evidence of that, the second marriage was bigamous.
Geoff
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 25 March 21 22:32 GMT (UK)
It's possible Adam took part in the Krakow Uprising in February 1846. His last Scottish child was born in 1844. He was in London by 1847. But we don't know if he went directly from Edinburgh to London or via Poland.
He married again in London in 1848, then Harriet had the baby in France in 1849. But when they arrived in New Orleans from Le Havre on 21 Dec 1949 he gave his birth place and last residence as Poland. So that indicates France was merely a stepping stone for a temporary return to Poland -- perhaps to show off his young wife and new baby to his parents. Now who's getting all Jane Austen lol
Geoff
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Thursday 25 March 21 22:47 GMT (UK)
It looks like Adam wasn't admitted as a surgeon until about the end of 1846.  His acceptance by the Royal College of Surgeons was reported by the Lancet on 2 January 1847.  Preusmably he couldn't practice his profession until that time so maybe he lived on handouts until he was qualified by the Royal College.
    
 http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qdg/
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 25 March 21 22:58 GMT (UK)
Thanks, that all fits. He said he was a surgeon at St Thomas's when he joined the Polish National Lodge in London in 1847. So he didn't practise in Edinburgh.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Tuesday 30 March 21 08:45 BST (UK)
Gaie commented that it all sounded very Jane Austen, with the Polish officers sweeping the Edinburgh ladies off their feet. Well, this takes that image a bit further. As well as Adam and Soter there was another Polish officer at the fundraising dinner in 1835 named Joseph Peichowski. In 1838 Joseph married Maria Bremner's younger sister Georgina at St Cuthbert in Edinburgh -- where Adam and Maria were married in 1834. Joseph and Georgina had a son Levi in about 1840 and a daughter named Rose (or Rosa) about 1841. Then they emigrated to the US, arriving in New York on the Hebrew on 1 Sep 1845. The passenger list says Joseph, 37, was born in Poland, and Georgina, 24, and the two children were born in Scotland. That would give approximate birth dates of 1808 for Joseph and 1821 for Georgina. (I have from other sources that she may have been born in Sep 1819, however.) It has also been suggested that the son was named Louis but the passenger list is fairly clear. Perhaps they had two boys, Louis and Levi. It seems that from New York the family moved to Alabama, where Joseph joined up to fight for the Confederacy side with the 36th Regiment, Alabama Infantry, which was raised in May 1862. I'm told there might be a slight discrepancy in age between the Polish Joseph and the Alabama Joseph, but I haven't been able to locate a birth date in the Alabama infantry records. However. It seems Joseph's daughter Rose/Rosa married Eugene Pillard in Mobile, Alabama, sometime before 1860, so that strengthens the case for it being the same Joseph. Rose Pillard is on the Census in Mobile in 1860 and 1870, in Galveston in 1880 and 1900, and back in Mobile in 1910. She died in Mobile, but I am not sure when. So that all fills out the picture of the Edinburgh ladies swooning over the dashing Police officers -- and raises some more questions, I guess!
Geoff   
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Tuesday 30 March 21 08:49 BST (UK)
Dashing Polish officers, not dashing Police officers, of course!
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Tuesday 30 March 21 13:15 BST (UK)
Marriage of Rose Ann P. Hoskey and Eugene Pillard, 24 December 1855 in Mobile.  Rose's father is named as Joseph Piechowski.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qgx/



Marriage of Louis Piechowski and Emily Fagan, December 1863  in Mobile.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qgy/
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Tuesday 30 March 21 13:27 BST (UK)
Phonetic spelling -- P. Hoskey is easier than Peichowski/Piechowski. I had to smile when I saw that, but I couldn't access the document to get the date. Thanks. If she was 4 in Sep 1845, on arrival in the US, she must have been only 14 or 15 when she married.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Tuesday 30 March 21 13:34 BST (UK)
Would the "license to intermarry" indicate that the groom was African American? In Alabama in 1855?
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Tuesday 30 March 21 13:38 BST (UK)
Grave of Eugene Pillard:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qgz/
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Tuesday 30 March 21 13:49 BST (UK)
"Would the "license to intermarry" indicate that the groom was African American? In Alabama in 1855?"

I don't think so.  From what I can see, that was the standard Alabama wording.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qh1/
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Tuesday 30 March 21 13:51 BST (UK)
OK, thanks.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: brigidmac on Tuesday 30 March 21 17:23 BST (UK)
What an interesting worldwide piece of detective work .

The assumption of bigamy may be wrong .
With help if roiotschatters ..I found a man on a census with his first wife who'd married second wife the year before  but on his death records his first wife was listed as divorced wife !

Have you tried looking for  a WILL ?
I think the theory of one Adam is probable but if there are 3 maybe you.ll find a will

Also definitely look up freemason records they show dates of payments and give dates of last payment and reason such as death .

DNA of descendants of relevant people could confirm unless the wives children were actually born to different men

Divorce could have been before the birth of  Maria's last children/ child
What surnames did they use in later life and who Do they list as their father on marriage certificates

Can you please  write a summary
 time line of finds so far. What you KNOW + DONT KNOW as it's a lot to.read to look for specific information

For example did you get information about the French birth .?.

Happy Hunting ...I'm reading this story like a detective novel wonder where the next snippet of information will turn up .

D
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Tuesday 30 March 21 17:43 BST (UK)
Eugene Pillard 1850
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qh2/

Eugene and Rose 1860?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qh3/

Eugene and Rose 1870
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qh5/

Eugene and Rose 1880
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qh6/

Eugene and Rose 1900
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qh7/

Eugene and Rose 1910
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qh8/



I wonder who George and Hugh Piechowski were in Mobile, 1860?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qh4/
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Tuesday 30 March 21 18:57 BST (UK)
Joseph Piechowski, Confederate Army
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FS5B-GZK

Louis Piechowski, Confederate Army
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XKN4-Q66

>>>>>>>>>>>>

To further complicate things, it looks like Louis and his wife relocated to Brazil for a while after the Civil War.  All his kids were born there.  Did Louis die in Brazil?  I wonder if Joseph went, too? 

1880 census  Louis's wife Emma, back in the USA, a widow
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qh9/

Burial of Louis, Jr.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qha/

Louis's widow applies for pension, 1877
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qhb/
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: brigidmac on Tuesday 30 March 21 21:49 BST (UK)
If I'm following correctly
The PIECHOWOSKI may not be related to Adam GRYSBOWOSKI in original search

Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Tuesday 30 March 21 22:16 BST (UK)
Joseph Piechowski's wife Georgina was the sister of Adam Grzybowski's wife Maria [his first wife, the Scottish one].
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Tuesday 30 March 21 23:42 BST (UK)
I'll write a summary of this complicated story, as Brigidmac suggests. It certainly has been a great example of the way Rootschat can bring skilled and generous people together from all over the world to solve family history conundrums!
I think it is reasonable to assume the Piechowskis in Mobile were related. Joseph was born in Poland in about 1808 and his children were born in Scotland in about 1840-41. George was born in Poland in about 1821 and Hugh was born in Scotland in about 1856. George might have been a younger brother of Joseph's and Hugh might have been George's son. Louis must have been an approximate contemporary of Joseph's since they both fought for Alabama in the Civil War. They may have been brothers or cousins. Louis died in 1877. The widow applying for a pension seems to be Louise. Emma, who was born about 1842, is the wife of the man who went to Brazil.
All we can say for certain about how they all ended up in Mobile is that they must have followed Joseph, or indeed Joseph might have followed Louis. Because as this ship list shows, Joseph, Georgina and the two children were the only ones on the boat arriving in New York on 1 Sep 1845.
But as you will see when I write the summary, it is Adam that we are really interested in anyway. Geoff
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Wednesday 31 March 21 05:16 BST (UK)
Summary Part 1
On 30 Nov 1835 a fundraising dinner was held in Edinburgh for Polish emigres. There were several Polish Army officers in attendance, and three in particular interest us because they married Scottish women from the Bremner family. Soter Drelinkiewicz married Jemima Bremner; Adam Grzybowski married Jemima’s first cousin Maria Bremner; and Joseph Peichowski married Maria’s younger sister Georgina Bremner. The weddings were held in the same Edinburgh church in 1834, 1836 and 1838 respectively.
In 1845 Jemima sued successfully to have her marriage to Soter annulled, and she then married James Bremner in 1848. He was the brother of Maria and Georgina and her own first cousin. Jemima and James moved to South Africa and fade from the picture.
Adam was born in Krakow on 10 Dec 1812 and baptised the next day at the Basilica of St Mary. His father was Piotr, a literate Customs Officer later described by Adam as a barrister (perhaps gilding the lily), and his mother was Anna Sobolewska. We know of three brothers and two sisters.
Adam graduated with a medical degree in Berlin then moved to Scotland, but was not able to practise because he was not admitted as a surgeon until Dec 1846.
We know that Adam was a freemason. He joined the Edinburgh No. 1 (Mary's Chapel) Lodge about 1834 and the Polish National Lodge in Kensington, London, in 1847, by which time he was a surgeon at St Thomas’s Hospital.
Adam and Maria had three children: Uladislaus Adam Grzybowski (b 1835); George Grzybowski Bremner (b about 1842); and Harriet Mary Bremner (b 1844). The lack of a Grzybowski among Harriet’s names might be significant, but when she died in 1877 Maria was described as “widow of Adam Grzybowski surgeon”, and she is using his surname.  When the first child married in 1861 (calling himself Adam Bremner) he said his father was Adam Grzybowski, a sub-lieutenant in the Polish Army (dec’d), and his mother was Maria Grzybowski (nee Bremner).
Adam married again at St Botolph, Aldersgate, London, on 1 Aug 1848, to Harriet Sarah Chance (1827-1874) and they had a daughter, Harriet E. Grzybowski, born in France. We have no records for that birth. But the family then emigrated from Le Havre to New Orleans on the ship Manchester, arriving on 21 Dec 1849. Adam gave his birth date as 1814 in Poland,  and said his last residence was Poland, which suggests he might have gone back to Poland between leaving London and arriving in the US.
From New Orleans the family headed upriver and when the Census was taken on 1 Jun 1850 they were at Brazeau Township in Missouri. The ages given were Adam, born Poland, 38; Harriet, born England; 23; and Harriet, born France, 1. We don’t know what happened to Adam after that. Harriet headed back to London and had another daughter on the way – Sophia Jane, born in New York in 1852. When Harriet was baptised at Holy Trinity, Marylebone Road, London, on 12 Dec 1852, Harriet described herself as a widow.
Harriet remarried, to a man named John Lee at Shoreditch in the first quarter of 1871. She died at Edmonton, Middlesex, in 1874. Her daughter Harriet married William Frederick Snow on 5 Feb 1872  at St Olave, Bermonsey. Harriet’s other daughter, Sophia Jane, married Henry Bentley in Oct 1879 at St Pancras, London.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Wednesday 31 March 21 05:16 BST (UK)
Summary Part 2
The third Polish officer was Joseph Peichowski. He and Georgina had two children before emigrating to the US. When they arrived in New York on the Hebrew on 1 Sep 1845 they are listed as Joseph, aged 37, born Poland; Georgina, aged 24, born Scotland; Levi, aged 5, born Scotland; and Rose, aged 4, born Scotland. From New York they headed to Alabama, where Joseph joined the 36th Regiment of the Alabama Infantry on the Confederate side in the Civil War (1861-1865). It is not known if Louis Peichowski, who served with the 1st Battalion, Alabama Artillery, was related.
Rose Peichowski married Eugene Pillard in Mobile, Alabama, on 24 Dec 1855, when she would have been barely 15 years old. Rose and Eugene lived in Mobile or Galveston, Texas, until Eugene died in Mobile in 1915. Rose also died in Mobile. She was still alive in the 1910 Census. Nothing more is known of Levi.
There were other Peichowskis in Mobile around this time who might have been related. One family had a child in Mobile, then moved to Brazil where two more children were born. The husband died and the widow and children appear back in Mobile in the 1880 Census. One of the children is named Louis, so this may be the family of the Louis Peichowski who fought for Alabama, not Joseph.
Our emphasis has been on Adam and his family, since he is directly related to my cousins. One cousin is in Scotland and the other was born there but now lives in Australia, as I do. Obviously we have relied a lot on the Scottish cousin, but Rootschat has provided all sorts of unexpected details about the rest of the story.
The only “will” we have is a summary of the assets of one of Adam’s sons, who died intestate. The Edinburgh lodge does not seem to be taking inquiries and the London lodge has not answered my email. The documents we have support the conclusion that Maria’s children used Bremner, but their mother used Adam’s surname and acknowledged herself as Adam’s widow.
Except, of course, we have no evidence of Adam’s actual death, just that Maria and Harriet both said they were his widow. If Harriet is correct, and she had Adam’s second daughter early in 1852 but was a widow when the child was baptised in Dec 1852, that really narrows down his time of his (alleged) death. But if he changed his name and disappeared, that leaves us with a major gap in our research. And it is looking like that might be the only answer.
I hope that puts it all in context, Brigidmac, and that others agree with my summary.
Geoff
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 31 March 21 06:27 BST (UK)
Fantastic summary
Isnt it odd that Adam has two daughters named Harriet one with Maria BREMNER + one with Harriet Sarah CHANCE .

I hope some descendants turn up who
are DNA related to these people .
Have you or any relations  taken a test where any of these surnames occur in shared matches ?
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Wednesday 31 March 21 06:42 BST (UK)
I guess if Harriet Chance wanted to name her daughter Harriet (a family name, perhaps), Adam might not have been able to say, Oh, I already have a daughter named Harriet with the other wife I haven't told you about! lol
I am not descended from Adam, but my cousins (who are) have both done their DNA.
Geoff
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 31 March 21 06:51 BST (UK)
I've just looked a marriage cert of Sarah and Adam#(record of original on one of the  ancestry trees)
Their signatures are on it

 the profession of Adam's father doesn't look like barrister there is no double letter could it be a mistranscription ?

You.ll have to ask your cousin's if they have shared matches to any of the half sisters ancestors or descendants.

I looked for the french.birth too . I know I've found french births before but can't remember which site I used


Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Wednesday 31 March 21 07:06 BST (UK)
I think that Levi and Louis are the same person  -  the son of Joseph Piechowski.  Maybe Louis was his middle name or he just liked it better than Levi.  One interesting thing that suggests that Louis is somehow connected to Joseph is the burial register of Louis's son, Louis, Jr.  The first line gives his name as:  Louis Piechowski [Pillard].  The only Pillard in this story is Eugene Pillard who married Joseph's daughter Rose.  Why Louis, Jr. would get the name Pillard attached to him is a mystery but strongly implies that Louis is related to Rose and we know that Rose is related to Joseph.   

One thing that strikes me is that 1845 was a critical year for all of these people.  In 1845, Jemima and Soter split up, Joseph and Georgina emigrated to the United States and Adam went to London to finish his medical qualification and, while there, made the acquaintance of Harriet Chance.

I wonder if Soter Drelinkiewicz also wound up in the United States?
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Wednesday 31 March 21 07:15 BST (UK)
I can't see that document from Australia. I just have the quarterly return listing Harriet Sarah Chance's marriage. There is another Rootschat thread that mentions Adam and Harriet

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=485275.msg3435809#msg3435809

I thought the barrister reference might be from there but apparently not. I can't think where I saw that now.

I have never had much luck with French records. I don't have a worldwide subscription to Ancestry.

Geoff

Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 31 March 21 08:23 BST (UK)
On marriage cert 1848 to Harriet
Original available on ancestry

Profession of father looks like it starts with  bas...
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 31 March 21 08:48 BST (UK)
Ps on Harriet Sarah's  second marriage to LEE
One of the witnesses is Jane Growbolski ....who is she ?
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Wednesday 31 March 21 08:51 BST (UK)
That is Sophia Jane, sometimes called Jane, the child born in New York early in 1852 and baptised in London in December 1852.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 01 April 21 03:54 BST (UK)
I think I finally have my head around the Levi/Louis Peichowsky story. Here is his grave in Mobile.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/115922841/louis-piechowsky
He may have arrived in the US as Levi but he is Louis from then on, He married Emma Fagan (also buried here) in 1863 in Mobile and they had one daughter, Annie, in Alabama in 1865 before heading to Brazil, where Lula Rosalie was born in 1869 and Louis was born in 1875. Then they returned to Alabama, where Louis Senior died in 1877. I was confused by the letter from the widow asking for a pension because it does not mention Emma by name. The 1880 Census lists Emma and her three children. Emma died in 1918 and the gravestone for Louis and Emma at Mobile was erected by their daughter Lula, who by then had married Christopher McLean in Mobile in 1899 and had two boys, Claude and Leo.
Annie married a man named Pendleton Gaines (Bud) Moore and is on the Census with him at least until 1920.
The youngest child, Louis, seems to have a much more interesting life, to put it politely. We know from the death record that he was called Louis Peichowski (Pillard). In fact, he seems to have used a few names. It is to be expected that his Polish surname might be confusing to clerks etc but this is more than just that. On 21 Oct 1899 when he married his first wife, Etta Lee Wentworth, he was Louis R Pomatowski. On 6 Apr 1911 when he married his second wife Mary Cynthia Cox he was Lawrence R Pillard. On 31 May 1918, when he was required to front the Chancery Court to answer a complaint from Mary C Pillard, he was described as "Lawrence R Pillard alias Louis R Poniatsowski". On his WWI draft card registration on 12 Sep 1918 he was Lawrence Ray Pillard. In a 1929 directory he was Louis R Pillard. And for his third marriage, in 1936, and in a 1939 directory, he was Lawrence Raymond Pillard. 
So it makes sense that he is listed as Louis Piechowski (Pillard) on the cemetery entry, remembering that Pillard was his sister Rose's married name. What is a little surprising is that Mary Cox, his second wife whom he divorced, is listed as the wife and the bill is to be sent to her. Perhaps the other two wives had died.
Geoff
   
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Thursday 01 April 21 04:14 BST (UK)
Not that it sheds any light on the mysterious Adam but it's an interesting story, anyway, so I'm glad you followed it out.  There was also another son named Sidney.

I'm disappointed that Perry County has not answered you even though it's unlikely that Adam died there.  Maybe they're shut down by Covid.  The Missouri Medical Association has not replied to me, either, but I didn't expect much from them.

I can't think how else to track Adam after 1850.  You need an ally in Missouri who can dig into local records that are unavailable online.  I wonder if there are any RootsChatters in St. Louis?
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 01 April 21 04:28 BST (UK)
Yes, it is easy to get distracted, but at least these are descendants of Maria Bremner's sister. We did really well with Adam, just that missing final link!

I saw the reference to a possible other son Sidney (1874–1935) on some trees. But why wasn't he on the 1880 Census with Emma and the other children? So I decided to leave him out.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: Erato on Thursday 01 April 21 04:39 BST (UK)
You could put a little post with a catchy title on the US board with a link to this thread.  That might attract the notice of Americans who don't pay attention to anything on the Europe board.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 01 April 21 04:41 BST (UK)
Yes, I'll think about that.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 01 April 21 06:36 BST (UK)
Good idea
By the way do you know any anglicisation s or spellings of the GRYBOWOSKI name ...your lot  seem consistent with the spelling .
And you get to compare signatures on old documents
probably because they were from educated literate family .

Some of my russian relatives changed spellings every time they changed countries
Eh
 (from 1890 - 1940 Latvia russia USA Mexico) I  have a Levy /Lev /Lew / Louis/Lewis   NUSBAUM/NISSE /NOTKIN / NESS grandfather + grandson ...neither became Laurence tho .

The interesting stories are amazing
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 01 April 21 07:07 BST (UK)
The Grzybowskis are fairly consistent in the documents we have, including printed in The Lancet, which is a help. It is useful to standardise spellings when you are working on a family tree anyway so that you can search easily. There is much more variation with the Peichowski family. They seem to have quickly become the Piechowskis (swapping the "e"and "i"), but then a lot of variations creep in, probably from clerks struggling with the spelling. You will remember that Rose/Rosa Peichowski was Rose Ann P. Hoskey at the time of her marriage. The younger Louis makes the name variation an art form though. A switch to Pillard might have been good for business reasons, and it struck me that Louis might have been a more acceptable name than Levi in the American South in the mid 19th century. You'd have to think the name change to Lawrence Pillard, from Levi/Louis Peichoewski, might have been for other reasons, though.   
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 01 April 21 10:36 BST (UK)
 The only argument against regularising spellings in trees is you won't find matches if they've gone with alternative spelling .

 my own father b 1930 & sister 1926 were registered by same registrar but one  spelt Mac the other Mc

They came from poor mining and weaving family
Up to 1920's spellings were erratic
& To confuse matters a great uncle Macdermid married a MC Dermott which was a totally different family.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Friday 02 April 21 01:25 BST (UK)
I noticed on the cemetery details for Louis Piechowski (Pillard) that he had a daughter, Mrs Lily Renz, of New Orleans, and two grandchildren and a great grandchild. I'm assuming that Lily was the daughter of his second wife, Mary Cynthia Cox, and that when Mary sued him in the Volusia County Chancery Court in May 1918 it might have been for maintenance for Lily.
Title: Re: POLAND (Germany?) Birth of Adam Grzybowski about 1806. Possible death in US.
Post by: GeoffTurner on Friday 02 April 21 02:27 BST (UK)
As suggested by Erato, I have posted on a US Rootschat page with a reference back to this thread.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=846873.msg7139960