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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Bonnie Knight on Sunday 14 February 21 18:07 GMT (UK)
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My grandmother never spoke of her biological parents, and was raised by an aunt.
Whilst compiling my family tree, the few facts that I've uncovered are mind boggling.
I have found her biological parents. The mother was married to another man when she became pregnant with my grandmother. The 1939 census shows all three (mother, husband and lover)all living together under the same roof! His marital status also says 'Widow', which adds to the confusion. Each to their own I suppose, but I cannot find anything about how/where the father passed away, and I'm not 100% sure of his birth/parents, let alone who he was married to. There are a few possibilities for his parents, but I don't want to guess.
Also, I came across a document that says my grandmother was a widow at 20 years old, when she married my grandfather, I cannot find any evidence to back this up though.
If anyone can help, I'd really appreciate it.
Here's the facts:
My grandmother - Dorothy Gladys Knight (born Hayward)
17th March 1919 Hackney - 5th Feb 1993 Edmonton/ Enfield
Her bio parents - Alice Louisa Walls (born Hall)
16th Oct 1885 Finsbury London - 12th Dec 1962 Middlesex
Walter Charles Hayward
13th Aug 1874 Mile End Old Town - ??
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Do you have Dorothys actual birth certificate?
Dorothy G Hayward mmm Walls. 1919.
A marriage Walter Charles Hayward
Phoebe Ellen WALLS 1905 Bethnal Green
A death Phoebe E Hayward 1920 Hackney aged 38.
So Walter would be the father but Phoebe the mother.
Tazzie
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Regarding Dorothy’s marriage.
Marriages Dec 1940 (>99%)
Hayward Dorothy G Knight Edmonton 3a 2936
Knight Henry P Hayward Edmonton 3a 2936
No sign (on the index) of her having another name from a previous marriage.
What does that certificate say?
What is the documentation that suggests she was a widow?
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1911
Walter Charles Hayward hd m 35 a looking glass frame maker.
Phoebe Ellen wi m 28 married 6 years.
81 Church Road Homerton Hackney
Tazzie
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WALLS, PHOEBE ELLEN HENDERSON WREN
GRO Reference: 1882 J Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 01C Page 455
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In 1911 Walter Charles conveniently gives the actual address where he was born, and the family are still there in 1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27S-PPMD
Parents are the page before John 53 b Whitechapel
And Emily 51 b Bermondsey
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WALLS, PHOEBE ELLEN HENDERSON WREN
GRO Reference: 1882 J Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 01C Page 455
In 1881 the family I think is the Walls Wren family are lodging with William and Catherine Anderson.
I am wondering if Henderson is really Anderson.
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were Phoebe Ellen H Walls who married Walter Charles Hayward 1905 Bethnal Green related to William Henry Walls who married Alice Louise Hall Edmonton 1906 related?? all these Walls and Halls Im a tad confused
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I don’t think we know yet.
I cannot find Phoebe in 1891 or 1901 which isn’t helping!
And the Walls/Wren combo are messy as well.
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I think I found Phoebe on the 1901 37 Crescent rd West ham servant to William Lyon gives her dob c1882 born Bow London which is a stones throw from Stepney. might be her but it doesnt help much
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Yes, that all makes complete sense, as looking back, I concluded myself that Alice Walls was the mother, based on the 1939 census. I cant believe I was that stupid!
I do believe that its the right Walter Charles Hayward in the 1939 census living with Alice and William Walls in Edmonton, as the birth date/place is exactly right. William must be the brother or related somehow. I'd love to know what happened to him.
it may be tough finding out about Phoebes life.
Thank you all so very much, I really appreciate everything more than you know x
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This might be the William Henry who married Alice Hall. Phoebe’s brother?
William Henry Henderson S 1880 Stepney mmn Wren
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There’s also a Harold Walls Henderson reg S 1886 MEOT mmn Wren
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1939 Dorothy's address is on the same road as that of Walter C Hayward etc.
Henrietta Hall married Henry William Brand in 1908 - so I take it that these might be the relatives who raised her?
(Sorry, I'm trying not to give details straight from the 1939 register, but if you look up Dorothy you'll see what I mean)
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Henrietta Brand nee Hall is Alice Louisa Walls nee Hall's elder sister.
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Morning...
Due to Phoebe dying in 1920 Dorothy would have been a small child so likely Alice and William raised her. She then moves in with aunts sister when an adult.
Henry Brand witnesses the marriage of Alberta Emily Hall ( sister to Alice & Henrietta) in 1916.
The father is listed as Alexander Marcus Hall a butcher.
Tazzie
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Background for William Henry Walls....
Enlisted Inf Lab Corp Northants regiment number 35366 in 1915. Address 31 Claremont St.
I wonder in Walter has anything I'll look further.
Tazzie
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Marriage
John Walls bach decorator father John a carpenter
Julia Wren spin father William a carman
St Peter's Vauxhall 26 July 1874.
Tazzie
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1911 Census
William Henry Walls and Alice Louisa Walls and their son William Marcus Walls born Edmonton 1906 were living/staying with her parents Marcus Hall 46 and Louisa Hall 47 in Edmonton
Their second child Gladys Louise was born in 1912
cant find Walter Charles Hayward and Phoebe Ellen on the census
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1911
Walter Charles Hayward hd m 35 a looking glass frame maker.
Phoebe Ellen wi m 28 married 6 years.
81 Church Road Homerton Hackney
Tazzie
Posted earlier
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thank you Tazzie forgot that
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No worries..... A very complex family here
Tazzie
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about the census 1911 for Walter and Phoebe it gives her birthplace as Bow so that makes the 1901 census for her feasible as the birthplace is also Bow. as for the children: they have been married 6 years and no children rather unusual, it says on the 1911 no children born alive. still borns then perhaps.
then 1919 Dorothy Gladys is born and survives only for her mother to die in 1920. They had been married 14 years when Dorothy Gladys was born. I think this tells a rather sad sorry story.
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Think you are going to have to buy Phoebe’s birth cert. I cannot find her anywhere with any of the rest of the John Wall/s Julia Wren family. (At least, that is the family I ASSUME she belongs to. But you know what they say about assuming! )
They had the first two children baptised, but then seem to have lapsed.
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I can't thank you all enough.
I have both their birth places, Burdett Rd and Edwards St, both in Mile End Old Town, which can also come under Stepney and Bow. Phoebes life does seem really sad, I agree, and very short... think I'll buy her death certificate.
Yes, Alice's sister Henrietta and her husband ended up raising her.
Other than finding out where Walter ended up, I think I can put this mystery to bed.
Thank you so very much, all of you x