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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wexford => Topic started by: Fenlon on Saturday 13 February 21 14:48 GMT (UK)
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This is my first post. I am hoping for help in locating my GGG grandparents. My GG grandparents were Patrick Fenlon and his wife Catherine Ryan. They had at least 7 children born/baptized in County Wexford:
Anna Fenlon (b 25 Dec 1860 or 1862, d 1940 in in Marcellus, NY, USA)
Mary/Maria Fenlon (b 15 Jan 1865; baptized in Kilrush; married 1st Jeremy Ryan; 2nd John Forsyth; d 1951; lived in Kilkenny City in 1901, 1911, and 1915)
male (Thomas?) Fenlon (b 20 Dec 1867 in Moneydurtlow)
John Fenlon (b 27 Jan 1870 in Ballingale)
Aidan Fenlon (baptized 3 Jan 1875 in Marshalstown)
Patrick Fenlon (b 15 Apr 1878 in Ballaman)
Edward John Fenlon (b 31 Jan 1879; d 24 Apr 1965 in Marcellus, NY, USA)
Edward was my great-grandfather.
I am trying to find Patrick Sr.'s parents. Below I have listed 14 possible Patrick Fenlons b between 1834 and 1842.
Towns and dates listed are for baptism, which is likely close to, but different from, the home location or birth date.
(1) 1834 Patrick s/o Patk Fenlon & Mary Walshe; Maryborough
(2) 1840 Patrick s/o John Fenlon & Bridget; Killeshin
(3) 1835 Pat s/o Peter Fenlon & Mary Fitzpatrick; Tinryland
(4) 1837 Patrick s/o Michael Fenlon, Anne; Tullow
(5) 1842 Patt s/o Tom Fenlon & Betty McCabe; Tullow
(6) 1837 Patrick Fenlon (no parent info); Carlow
(7) 1840 Patrick s/o Patrick Fenlon & Elizabeth Butler; Carlow
( 8 ) 1842 Patrick s/o Patrick Fenlon & Bridget Lalor; Carlow
(9) 1833 Patt s/o Pierce? Fenlon & Mary Kervan; Myshall
(10) 1835 Patt s/o John Fenlon & Margt Byrne; Myshall
(11) 1836 Patrick s/o John Finlon & Mary Walsh; Paulstown
(12) 1840 Patt s/o Patt Fenlon & Winfred Neil; Borris
(13) 1837 Patk Fenelon s/o Jno. Fenelon & Mary; Saint Mullin’s
(14) 1839 Patrick s/o Mick Fenlon & Anne Kearney; Taghmon
1-14 above are fairly close to each other, here they are by County:
Carlow = 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13
Kilkenny = 11
Laois = 1, 2
Wexford = 14
I am trying to find Catherine's parents too. Family records indicate she was from County Cork. Below I have listed four Catherine Ryans from Cork. All were born in 1837.
There were 4 Catherine Ryans born in County Cork between 1832-1842. By coincidence all of them were born in 1837.
(1) 1837 Catherine d/o Edmund Ryan and Ellen Foley; Charleville
(2) 1837 Catharine d/o Anthony Ryan and Hannah Murphy; Kantruk
(3) 1837 Catherine d/o John Ryan and Bridget Maria Jerrall; Cork City
(4) 1837 Catherine d/o Michael Ryan and Ellen Coleman; Glanmire
Thank you in advance for any advice or information you can provide.
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Hello and welcome
I notice you have listed baptisms. If you don’t already have this site, it is good for civil records after 1864. It is free but you just have to prove you are not a robot. :)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
For example, here is Mary’s registration - born Balaman
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03581/2320184.pdf
And the ‘unknown’ child of 1867 b Moneydurtlow
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03462/2271304.pdf
Moneydurtlow townland - Ballaman is a neighbouring one
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03581/2320184.pdf
Heywood
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This looks like the marriage for Patrick and Catherine. (Bottom of left hand page)
16th January 1863 Ferns parish.
The residence shown is Ballingale, which is likely to be Catherine’s residence.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634066#page/178/mode/1up
This would probably exclude the first name or year you have for Anna.
https://www.townlands.ie/wexford/scarawalsh/ballycarney/tombrack/ballingale/
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Wow, thank you heywood!!! I did not know about the Civil Records site that shows the original documents and the marriage record for Patrick and Catherine is a real find. I have been looking for that for a long time.
I agree it calls into questions Anna's birth year, but various records had already indicated several different years.
Thank you again.
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Welcome from me also to RootsChat :)
Moneydurtlow and Ballaman townlands border eachother.
https://www.townlands.ie/wexford/scarawalsh/kilrush/tombrack/moneydurtlow/
https://www.townlands.ie/wexford/scarawalsh/kilrush/tombrack/ballaman/
KG
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This could be the marriage of Thomas Fenlon -1895
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1895/10538/5838669.pdf
It shows that father Patrick is deceased.
Here is Thomas in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/Marshalstown/Askunshin/677536/
I know you are looking further back but I am trying to confirm your records. I can’t spot some of the births.
Are any familly names used as Godparents to the children you have?
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Hello there OP, our ancestors would have known each other for certain!
I descend from the Sheridans of Moneydurtlow, and Doyles of Tombrack and Ballamon.
I have to say though that you may to be on a wrong track with your present approach to where Patrick Fenlon and wife originated.
I suspect you are making two mistakes that all too many US researchers make. The first is that is you are failing to take account of geography (that is distance), and social class, and the second is that you appear to be ignoring the fact that records simply don't exist for some of your most probable locations of origin.
Looking at your list of family members, I could tell immediately that Patrick must have been a laborer. That is shown by the fact that the baptism/birth locations keep changing. If he were a farmer, the location would not vary so much, or at all. Interesting that the first few birth registrations say he was a farmer, but later ones, and later marriage registration says laborer. What do US marriage records, for his children, say?
There is no sign of a Fenlon farm in the vicinity of Ferns in Griffith's Valuation (1853).
Assuming that Patrick was either a laborer or cottier, then we can say:
- That he probably lived and died in the same or adjacent parish to where he was born.
- Similarly, he probably married a woman from the same parish where he lived, or adjacent.
Distances further than that become more and more unlikely the further you go. Remember, any travel he did would have been on foot! Mobility for a farm laborer was very low, and many marriages were from the same or adjacent townlands, let alone parishes!
Hence most, probably all, of the possible births you list for Patrick can be rejected as unlikely.
Similarly, how would a laborer from rural Wexford meet and marry a woman from Cork? Almost impossible, unless she was somehow working in the vicinity as a servant of a family who might have brought her there. And indeed, Heywood has pointed out that Catherine appears to have been residing in Ballingale in 1863, which is very close to the locations where they later lived.
The other big pitfall you are making is that you are considering births at improbable distances, while ignoring the fact that the local records, where they were probably born, simply aren't extant. The most probable parishes of origin for both Patrick and Catherine are Kilrush, followed by Ferns and Marshalstown. Relevant records are available for Ferns, but not Kilrush or Marshalstown.
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Hi Kiltaglassan — Thanks for the welcome and for the links to the townland maps. I only recently learned about townlands and these maps provide different information from Google maps.
heywood — I agree some births cannot be found, but as Wexflyer points out, some records do not exist. I am not sure about the Godparent aspect, but family names that I know of in the next generation (Patrick’s grandchildren) are:
Anna had 10 children (all born in Marcellus, NY) with her husband Michael Ward.
(1) Timothy Fredrick; (2) Mary; (3) Patrick William; (4) Thomas; (5) Honora (Nora); (6) Michael J.; (7) Edward John; (8) Rosella Cecelia; (9) Robert James; (10) Katherine.
Mary/Maria had 3 children that I know of (all born in Co. Kilkenny) with her 1st husband Jeremey Ryan:
(1) Peter; (2) Lillian; (3) Christina
My great-grandfather Edward J. Fenlon, Sr. had 5 children (all born in Marcellus, NY) with his wife Elizabeth Kilcoyne:
(1) Edward John, Jr.; (2) Emmett Martin; (3) Clara Elizabeth; (4) Marcella Anne; (5) Mary Agnes.
Wexflyer — Thank you for all the context about how to approach finding Patrick and Catherine’s parents. I was puzzled by the fact that the baptism/birth records were constantly changing and did not know what to make of it. Your explanation that Patrick was a laborer moving around makes sense. The fact that many records do not exist makes my goal very much harder! I guess I have to hope that I come across some distant cousin that has a family bible that might provide some answers? I’m hoping someone might see this thread. I have the baptism record for Mary/Maria from Kilrush and in the margin next to it is written that she married John Forsyth (her second husband) on 1 Dec 1908 in Kilkenny City. I have found her there on both the 1901 and 1911 census. The distance from Kilrush to Kilkenny is about 58 km.
I agree the Co. Cork birth for Catherine seems improbable, but it comes from my grandmother’s notes and she would have learned this talking to her father-in-law Edward J. Fenlon, Sr. about his mother. My grandmother’s extensive genealogical records have always proven to be correct, except for a few middle names being different.
That is very cool to think that our ancestors knew each other. This is my first post on rootschat and I am so thankful for all the information.
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I forgot to mention, here is a blog post that I wrote about my great-grandfather Edward John Fenlon, Sr. back in 2019:
https://emmettannefenlon.blogspot.com/2019/07/immigrant-ancestors-part-2-edward-j.html
It discusses that he was a laborer too, but he also kept a small farm.
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This is an oddity but as it is not your direct line it may not be that important.
I was looking for any relatives in records:
Marriage of Jeremiah Ryan and Maria Fennelly - father William
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1892/10644/5878251.pdf
Marriage of Maria Ryan - father William Fennelly
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1908/10074/5664622.pdf
I can see the note re the details of the marriage on the baptism so it is very strange.
Perhaps though the name search should be broader.
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Thanks Heywood. I don't know what to make of this. Those two marriage records seem to clearly be for the Maria in question, but, as you note, the Kilrush baptism record show Mary Fenlon had parents of Pat Fenlon and Kathy Ryan. I think the best explanation is that the priest incorrectly listed the marriage of Maria Fennelly on the baptism record of Mary Fenlon. What do you think?
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Thanks Heywood. I don't know what to make of this. Those two marriage records seem to clearly be for the Maria in question, but, as you note, the Kilrush baptism record show Mary Fenlon had parents of Pat Fenlon and Kathy Ryan. I think the best explanation is that the priest incorrectly listed the marriage of Maria Fennelly on the baptism record of Mary Fenlon. What do you think?
I was just about to post the 1892 Ryan-Fennelly marriage, but Heywood beat me to it.
She is not from your family. The church record for the same marriage gives her parents as William Fennelly and Mary Delaney. Same parents listed for her second marriage in 1908, with the annotation that their address was Ferns.
The solution as to why there is an annotation on the baptism record in Ferns is potentially simple, just as you say - the priest misidentified which baptism. I have seen it happen in my family - a marriage noted for a child who died young!
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Thanks Wexflyer.
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OP - another oddity.
Normally Irish people, of whatever persuasion, named children for grandparents.
You can see this with Anna's children - there is a son named Patrick, and a daughter named Catherine, just as would be expected.
But looking at Edward's children, there is not one named for either of his parents. That can only mean
either not correct parents, or there was a falling out.
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There is this death for a Patrick Fenlon - might be your man
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1887/06221/4780181.pdf
Enniscorthy Workhouse 1887 Patrick Fenlon 75 yrs of Milehouse.
When Thomas married in 1895, his residence was Milehouse.
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Thanks Heywood and Wexflyer for finding the records that clearly show that Maria is not mine. The search for records on Mary Fenlon starts fresh now. (Of course I had already done quite a bit of research on Jeremy Ryan.) I'm really glad to have that sorted.
Wexflyer -- I agree that it is common to name children after your parents, but in the US it is less common. Edward's wife was born in the US (her parents were born in Ireland -- Co. Galway and Co. Mayo) and she would have some say over the children's names. I am certain that Edward and Anna are bother and sister. However, a falling out is an interesting hypothesis. My uncle told me that when my grandmother tried to ask Edward about his roots in Ireland that he was reluctant to discuss it.
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In 1901 there are two families in Milehouse
Thomas - marriage already given. He has a brother Peter :-\ (can’t see a birth.)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wexford/Marshalstown/Milehouse/1788618/
The other one Patrick and Elizabeth Fenlon does not have Patrick as father on marriage.
Here is the marriage of Peter Fenlon to Sarah Kenny - 1909
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1910/09978/5628134.pdf
And in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/Marshalstown/Pullinstown__Big/677661/
Difficult without the births
He could be Pat baptised 1878
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Hi Heywood,
I think the Patrick Fenlon from Milehouse that died in 1887 at 75 years old is too old to be my Patrick. That puts his birth at 1812 and my Patrick had children from ca. 1863 to 1879. This Patrick could be a father to my Patrick.
WRT Patrick Jr., there is oral family history that one of Edward's brothers died in an accident. My theory was that it was Patrick Jr. because of this record of a 13 y old Patrick dying in 1892. The Ballinastraw location fits:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1892/06033/4718221.pdf
The name Thomas also only comes from family oral history -- that one of Edward's brothers that stayed in Ireland was named Thomas. I have assigned it to the male born in 1867 in Moneydurtlow, but I would not put money down that the assignment is correct.
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It is difficult.
I just saw a tree and then baptisms of Thomas Fenlon and Peter Fenlon to Patrick F and Ann Shaw so they could be the ones in Milehouse.
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Pat Fenlon was baptized in the parish of Marshalstown on 15th April 1878. The parish registers give the address as Ballyorrill, not Balaman. Balaman is not in the parish of Marshalstown.
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A Catherine Ryan was baptized in Ferns on 6th September, 1840.
Somewhat unusual entry.
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Good morning/ good afternoon Wexflyer. Thank you for the correction on Ballyorrill vs. Balaman for Pat. I am not sure how I got that wrong because the handwriting it pretty clear.
What makes the Catherine Ryan entry unusual? (I have not found it yet.) The date is about right for my Catherine, but I still trust my grandmother's notes about Cork.
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What makes the Catherine Ryan entry unusual?
The address
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634066#page/5/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634066#page/5/mode/1up)
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I see. Does that say "strangers from Dublin" ?! Very unusual indeed.
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I see. Does that say "strangers from Dublin" ?! Very unusual indeed.
Yes it does.
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Just passing through?
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I guess so. When it's time, it's time. Can't say no to mother nature once your water breaks.
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Just passing through?
Much more likely that the priest meant that Dubliners are strange folk! :D
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Just passing through?
Much more likely that the priest meant that Dubliners are strange folk! :D
:D
The sponsor Judith Wickam married a few days later - 22nd September 1840 to John Possiter both ‘Miltown’.
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Just passing through?
Much more likely that the priest meant that Dubliners are strange folk! :D
:D
The sponsor Judith Wickam married a few days later - 22nd September 1840 to John Possiter both ‘Miltown’.
I think you mean Rossiter.
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That would make more sense. It does show as Possiter but the stroke may have faded.
Transcribed as Possiter too (because that’s how it reads :) )
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hi fenlon
my family of fenlons came from wexford town my grt grt grandfather was a michael fenlon born in carlow 1801/2 he came to wexford with carlow militia it is said he married 3 times fathering 62 children ist wife mary ouselem 24 children 2nd margaret murphy 16 and last wife mary murphy 20 children if you fine any connection please let me no
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hi fenlon
my family of fenlons came from wexford town my grt grt grandfather was a michael fenlon born in carlow 1801/2 he came to wexford with carlow militia it is said he married 3 times fathering 62 children ist wife mary ouselem 24 children 2nd margaret murphy 16 and last wife mary murphy 20 children if you fine any connection please let me no
Is this fact or fiction? The parish registers all exist.
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Hi Wrightey1961,
Yes, I am well aware of Michael Fenlon. I have not been able to find a connection yet. Surprisingly, I have not been able to find a good source about his descendants. Does anyone know where I can find this?
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hi fenlon
thanks for reply what info are you looking for regarding michael
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Hi Wrightey1961,
A list of (some of) his children and grandchildren with birth and death dates would be a great start. I cannot even find a list of the names of all of his children.
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also found michael had brother patrick so could he be father to your patrick
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not all 62 children have been found i have not found marriage to first wife or any children i have possible children to first wife i have found 2nd wife marriage ans some children the last wife which i descend from i have children not all some of the childre died young as can imagine