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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: Douglas McLean on Tuesday 09 February 21 07:19 GMT (UK)
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My 6x great grandfather, John McLean, was born on Mull circa 1690 and was sent or taken to Antrim by 1700. I believe he was from the MacLeans of Coll, possibly from the Grishipol estate. He lived near the town of Antrim at the same time (1700 to 1715) as Rev. John McLean, second son of Roderick, 3rd of Grishipol, who was a minister in Antrim and chaplain to Viscount Massareene.
I am interested in any Macleans who emigrated to County Antrim from Mull or Coll 1680 to 1700. Their weren't many. I know of brothers Hector and Ronald (or their issue) who were sons of Allan, 1st of Achnasaul, two brothers, John and Hugh, who were sons of John, 2nd of Grishipol, and Rev.John, son of Lachlan, 3rd of Grishipol. (Some genealogies have him as another son of John, 2nd of Grishipol.)
I would be most interested in hearing anything about these, or any other Maclean, emigrating from Scotland and going to County Antrim in the last two decades of the 17th century.
Douglas McLean
Madison, Wisconsin
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Hello Douglas,
I did a quick search of RootsChat, using the words Macleans and antrim I found this topic which maybe of interest to you.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=364683.msg2405804#msg2405804
Regards
Sarah
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There was certainly a mass migration from Scotland to Ireland in the 1690s due mainly to famine in Scotland. The period was known as the Lean Years. Tom Devine reckons 40,000 Scots went to Ireland in that decade. (TM Devine - The Scottish Clearances p 66).
If the Rev John McLean was chaplain to Viscount Massereene then he must have been Church of Ireland (Episcopalian). The Massereene family worshipped at the Church of Ireland in Antrim town (and are commemorated within it). So perhaps your John McLean c 1690 also attended there?
You are lucky with Antrim town because both the Church of Ireland and the 1st Presbyterian church have quite early records. The Church of Ireland’s start in 1700 and Presbyterian in 1677. That’s very unusual in Ireland. Few churches have records for the 1700s or earlier. There’s a copy of both sets of records in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast. You might want to get someone to look at them, post Covid.
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Reply to Elwyn:
Thank you for this. My statement saying few Macleans went to Antrim at the end of the 17th century was meant to apply to those of the MacLeans of Coll and is based on remarks to that effect in an article by Nicholas Maclean-Bristol in West Highlands Notes and Queries, "Famine in the Hebrides?" (April, 1990; series 2, no. 5, p.8), to wit: "There are a few clues that people from the Western Isles may have gone to Ireland. Maclean of Grishipol left Coll in the 1690s and at least one member of his family [Rev. John McLean, son of Lachlan, 3rd of Grishipol] settled in Antrim. It would be surprising if those who were starving did not move to nearby Northern Ireland, which had a surplus of grain throughout the famine, but we know little of these links at this time."
Yes, it would appear that many Scots did emigrate at that time, for any one of several reasons including the Hebrides famine, but apparently few from the Coll estates, my primary interest. Again, I would be most interested to hear from anyone with information about anyone from the Coll cadet who emigrated at that time.
Rev. John McLean's religious affiliation is difficult because he changed it, and genealogies present conflicting information because of that. The most authoritative coverage on him I have seen is James Noel Mackenzie Maclean's Reward Is Secondary (Hodder and Stoughton, 1963). In sum, his first charge was as a Presbyterian minister on Arran in 1688, then a year later in Antrim, then ordained in the Church of Ireland after the elders of his church outed him for coming to the defense of an Episcopalian minister (a classmate from Glasgow University) demonized by his fellow Presbyterian clergymen. It was then that he became chaplain to the Massereenes.( Who, by the way, also spoke out against the Presbyterian excoriation of Episcopalian ministers and advocated tolerance.)
As you note, there are remnants of records of the Antrim Presbyterian congregation from the late 17th century extant and I discovered some information in the baptism records regarding my John McLean ancestor. Although they were of different denominations at the time they were living in the Sixteen Towns of Antrim, I'm quite certain my John and Rev. John were related as members of the Grishipol cadet of the MacLeans of Coll. Can anyone add anything to this?
Douglas McLean
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Hello Douglas,
I am also a McClean, I just seen your post and doing my family tree I have got as far as Hugh McClean being my x5 great grandfather and wondering if that’s the same Hugh you have in your post? How did you get that far in your family tree? I’ve been stuck for a while, also the Hugh McCLean on my tree was from Banbridge on his military records. I would love to hear back from you 🙂
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Hello McClean,
It doesn't appear your Hugh and Hugh, brother or Lachlan, 3rd of Grishapol, are the same - different generations and although I don't know where Banbridge is, it isn't on Coll. I go back to my 6x gt. grandfather John McLean by family tradition, and for 47 years have been working on how he ties in to the clan. A good bet is through Macleans of the Auchnasaul or Grishipol cadets of Coll who went to Ulster.
Regards,
Douglas
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Hello McClean,
It doesn't appear your Hugh and Hugh, brother or Lachlan, 3rd of Grishapol, are the same - different generations and although I don't know where Banbridge is, it isn't on Coll. I go back to my 6x gt. grandfather John McLean by family tradition, and for 47 years have been working on how he ties in to the clan. A good bet is through Macleans of the Auchnasaul or Grishipol cadets of Coll who went to Ulster.
Regards,
Douglas
Here is Banbridge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banbridge
Just a tip from an older genealogist. Please do not be too quick to dismiss possible links, just 'tuck them away' as i was advised to do by a much more experienced researcher on here upwards of 15 years ago. Taken all this time and I am possibly on the verge of linking this 'out of left field' (at the time) suggestion to my tree.
You have not mentioned any of the marriages of the people you are looking for. Did the Maclean you are looking for return to Scotland?
You mention he was born c 1690 and then came to Antrim from 1700 to 1715 so from age 10 to age 25. Did he marry in Antrim? What happened to him after 1715?
In Scottish naming patterns how does he fit in with the Rev John Mclean you mention? Do you suspect he may be a son? or a relation?
Elwyn has some excellent suggestions. You could look on Proni to see if there are wills etc.
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Greetings Shanreagh,
Thanks for joining in. Here are my replies:
"You mention he was born c 1690 and then came to Antrim from 1700 to 1715 so from age 10 to age 25. Did he marry in Antrim? What happened to him after 1715?"
John McLean, my 6x gt.grandfather, came to Antrim town when young with his family circa 1700. He is almost certainly the John McLean who married Jean Kempton there in 1709 and had two children baptized there in 1716 and 1721. (Antrim Presbyterian congregation marriage and birth registers.) He did not return to Scotland. He emigrated to the Pennsylvania colony in 1721 or 1722 with members of his wife's family (Dunlops and Moores).
"In Scottish naming patterns how does he fit in with the Rev John Mclean you mention? Do you suspect he may be a son? or a relation?"
He is likely a first cousin of Rev. John McLean, minister in the Antrim C.I. Church. Rev. McLean was a son of Lachlan, 3rd of Grishipol. My John may have been the son of John McLean, brother of Lachlan. Lachlan's brothers John and Hugh went to "Ireland" in the late 17th century. I know nothing about them. I have discovered a possible link in the 1740 Protestant Householders Returns: one Hugh McLeane living in Kilowen Parish, Co. Londonderry. A son of emigrating Hugh?
I seek any information on any Macleans of Coll, especially of the Cadets of Grishipol and Auchnasaul, or any Maclean living in Quinish in northern Mull,who went to Ulster in the late 17th century.
Regards,
Douglas McLean
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He is likely a first cousin of Rev. John McLean, minister in the Antrim C.I. Church. Rev. McLean was a son of Lachlan, 3rd of Grishipol. My John may have been the son of John McLean, brother of Lachlan. Lachlan's brothers John and Hugh went to "Ireland" in the late 17th century. I know nothing about them. I have discovered a possible link in the 1740 Protestant Householders Returns: one Hugh McLeane living in Kilowen Parish, Co. Londonderry. A son of emigrating Hugh?
If you mean Killowen, Coleraine then it is not near Antrim (about 40 miles apart).
Rev. John McLean's religious affiliation is difficult because he changed it, and genealogies present conflicting information because of that. The most authoritative coverage on him I have seen is James Noel Mackenzie Maclean's Reward Is Secondary (Hodder and Stoughton, 1963). In sum, his first charge was as a Presbyterian minister on Arran in 1688, then a year later in Antrim, then ordained in the Church of Ireland after the elders of his church outed him for coming to the defense of an Episcopalian minister (a classmate from Glasgow University) demonized by his fellow Presbyterian clergymen. It was then that he became chaplain to the Massereenes.( Who, by the way, also spoke out against the Presbyterian excoriation of Episcopalian ministers and advocated tolerance.)
No mention of a John McLean, or any McLean, a Presbyterian minister in Antrim town during this period in A History of Congregations in the Presbyterian Church in Ireland 1610-1982. However they do list him under 1st Coleraine Presbyterian Church in Co. Londonderry: In 1689 Rev. John McLean from Kilmorie in Arran was "Outed" from Coleraine for suspected Jacobite leanings after having been there only a few months. He joined the Anglican church and became curate in Killowen, Coleraine.
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He is likely a first cousin of Rev. John McLean, minister in the Antrim C.I. Church. Rev. McLean was a son of Lachlan, 3rd of Grishipol. My John may have been the son of John McLean, brother of Lachlan. Lachlan's brothers John and Hugh went to "Ireland" in the late 17th century. I know nothing about them. I have discovered a possible link in the 1740 Protestant Householders Returns: one Hugh McLeane living in Kilowen Parish, Co. Londonderry. A son of emigrating Hugh?
If you mean Killowen, Coleraine then it is not near Antrim (about 40 miles apart).
Rev. John McLean's religious affiliation is difficult because he changed it, and genealogies present conflicting information because of that. The most authoritative coverage on him I have seen is James Noel Mackenzie Maclean's Reward Is Secondary (Hodder and Stoughton, 1963). In sum, his first charge was as a Presbyterian minister on Arran in 1688, then a year later in Antrim, then ordained in the Church of Ireland after the elders of his church outed him for coming to the defense of an Episcopalian minister (a classmate from Glasgow University) demonized by his fellow Presbyterian clergymen. It was then that he became chaplain to the Massereenes.( Who, by the way, also spoke out against the Presbyterian excoriation of Episcopalian ministers and advocated tolerance.)
No mention of a John McLean, or any McLean, a Presbyterian minister in Antrim town during this period in A History of Congregations in the Presbyterian Church in Ireland 1610-1982. However they do list him under 1st Coleraine Presbyterian Church in Co. Londonderry: In 1689 Rev. John McLean from Kilmorie in Arran was "Outed" from Coleraine for suspected Jacobite leanings after having been there only a few months. He joined the Anglican church and became curate in Killowen, Coleraine.
Re aghadowey's secont point, here is a link to the page in the Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae which gives an account of John McLean on Arran:
https://archive.org/details/fastiecclesiaesc04scot/page/62/mode/2up?view=theater&q=kilmory
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Greetings Shanreagh,
....
He is likely a first cousin of Rev. John McLean, minister in the Antrim C.I. Church. Rev. McLean was a son of Lachlan, 3rd of Grishipol. My John may have been the son of John McLean, brother of Lachlan. Lachlan's brothers John and Hugh went to "Ireland" in the late 17th century. I know nothing about them. I have discovered a possible link in the 1740 Protestant Householders Returns: one Hugh McLeane living in Kilowen Parish, Co. Londonderry. A son of emigrating Hugh?
.....
Regards,
Douglas McLean
Just a wee point ...not sure about your use of the word 'emigrating' to describe movement between Scotland and Ireland. It is not in the class of travel as between somewhere in the British Isles and North America for instance. When I visited the north (along the coastline) I was mesmerised by the blinking of the lighthouses on Mull and other places in Scotland. The two places are just 12 miles apart at the closest parts.
ETA Sorry not clear I as meaning the north coast of Northern Ireland, so close to Scotland.
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Just a wee point ...not sure about your use of the word 'emigrating' to describe movement between Scotland and Ireland. It is not in the class of travel as between somewhere in the British Isles and North America for instance. When I visited the north (along the coastline) I was mesmerised by the blinking of the lighthouses on Mull and other places in Scotland. The two places are just 12 miles apart at the closest parts.
The North Channel or Irish Channel - the strait between north-eastern Northern Ireland and south-western Scotland. The distance between the two shores is approximately 12 miles (19 km) at its closest point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Channel_(Great_Britain_and_Ireland)
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The North Channel or Irish Channel - the strait between north-eastern Northern Ireland and south-western Scotland. The distance between the two shores is approximately 12 miles (19 km) at its closest point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Channel_(Great_Britain_and_Ireland)
The current PM wanted a bridge across it.
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Thanks guys for comments.
As to use of "emigrate" vs. "migrate", I have wavered between the two as to relocation between Scotland and Ulster. My thinking is northern Ireland (basically Ulster) was not yet partitioned from Ireland as "Northern Ireland" in the late 17th century, and notwithstnding much British settlement in northern Ireland then all Ireland was a distinct country from England and Scotland. I would agree that relocation between Ulster and anywhere in Great Britain today is "migration". As I am woefully ignorant of Irish-Anglo history, I would welcome clarification on this. (And hope I'm not opening a can of worms!)
Sill seeking information re. any Coll Macleans "going to" Ulster in the late 17th century.
Cheers,
Douglas
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Douglas,
I wouldn’t worry too much about the terms emigrate and migrate. But it does make me smile when I read posts about ancestors “emigrating from Scotland to Ireland” and when sometimes folk look for passenger lists. Would it be emigration if you moved 12 miles down the road where you lived? (Rhetorical).
Shanreagh has accurately described how close Ireland and Scotland are. Folk have been going back and forth for thousands of years. Until modern roads, it was very difficult to get overland from Ballycastle to Dublin but very easy to get to Campbeltown or Port Ellen or to Coll. The sea was not a hindrance but their highway. Links with Argyll were stronger than those with Dublin or Cork. Coll to Coleraine was an easy journey. (A good overview can be found in “Antrim & Argyll – Some aspects of the connections” Edited by Dr Wm Roulston publ 2018).
For years inshore fishermen on Islay generally landed their catches in Oban but when weather was adverse they often landed them in Ballycastle instead. As a consequence of being in Ballycastle for a few days they sometimes took a bride home as a “back load” as some might say. Modern refrigeration techniques and internet dating have sadly killed that fine habit, but you’ll get the general idea.
If you walk round a graveyard in Islay or Coll you’ll often find the same names as in graveyards in Ballycastle and north Antrim. You don’t need to be an expert to know those folk went back and forth all the time, and were closely related.
I have travelled from Ballycastle to Islay 3 times (twice by ferry and once on a small cruise ship). The ferry (Kintyre Express) takes an hour. In the days of sail it’d have been quite a bit longer but not a major journey and certainly not migration. The skipper of the Rathlin Island ferry told me how he once rowed from Ballycastle to Islay (with 5 or 6 others and using a coarse sail) for charity. It took about 5 hours. Later they went on to Iona (so re-enacting St Columba’s journey). Hard work but not too challenging in good weather, he said. He reckoned that in the days of sail folk travelling to Ireland from Scotland waited till the wind changed to the north to make it easier to sail south. Those delays may have led to some Scottish brides coming to Ireland as another “back load”. Who knows?
None of this really helps with your search for Macleans going to Ulster but maybe gives a bit of perspective.
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Great Description - Elwyn Souttar.
Jack Gee
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Great Description - Elwyn Souttar.
Jack Gee
Much obliged.
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I love it Elwyn.
I am trying to find the story of a Saint who was banned from Ireland and travelled to the north of Ireland from Scotland, in a curragh I think, with clods of earth tied to his feet so that he could honestly say he had not set foot on Irish soil. Apparently he preached on the beach with these clods of earth on his feet.
This might have been a bit of blarney but known and approved of in our Protestant NZ/Irish family for the cleverness. :)
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Reply to Elwyn -
Thanks so much for your interesting comments. Yes, before "borders" ruled the world, it was the wind, the currents and where one could find sustenance that determined who went where and when. I understand quite a few "professional soldiers" (we call them mercenaries) also made the crossing from time to time. And of course many Macdonalds of the Hebrides made the coast of Antrim home.
Douglas
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I love it Elwyn.
I am trying to find the story of a Saint who was banned from Ireland and travelled to the north of Ireland from Scotland, in a curragh I think, with clods of earth tied to his feet so that he could honestly say he had not set foot on Irish soil. Apparently he preached on the beach with these clods of earth on his feet.
This might have been a bit of blarney but known and approved of in our Protestant NZ/Irish family for the cleverness. :)
https://dailyscribbling.com/the-odd-side-of-donegal/the-warrior-saint-and-the-battle-of-the-book/
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Reply to Elwyn -
Thanks so much for your interesting comments. Yes, before "borders" ruled the world, it was the wind, the currents and where one could find sustenance that determined who went where and when. I understand quite a few "professional soldiers" (we call them mercenaries) also made the crossing from time to time. And of course many Macdonalds of the Hebrides made the coast of Antrim home.
Douglas
Douglas,
Yes the mercenaries were called galloglass (sometimes gallowglass) and were invited to Ireland and given land in return for their fighting skills (used against other Irish tribes and also the English). The McLoughlins on the Inishowen peninsula in Donegal are reportedly descendants of such galloglass from the Hebrides.
“Another important theme was the emergence of the Gaelic speaking Lordship of the Isles (1336 – 1493) led by the MacDonalds of Islay, one outcome of which was the establishment of a branch of that family in Antrim, for long active in the Gaelic worlds of both Ireland and Scotland. A further important link was the introduction of galloglasses and redshanks, Scottish mercenaries mainly from Argyll, to Ireland between the thirteenth and sixteenth centuries.” (Antrim & Argyll – Some aspects of the Connections p 3).
There’s quite a good story about the ownership of Rathlin which may even have some basis in fact. In 1617 the English Crown’s right to grant Rathlin to the MacDonalds/McDonnells as part of their Antrim estate was challenged by George Crawford, a landholder at Lisnorris in Kintyre, who claimed it was part of Scotland and not Ireland. A long legal battle followed which was eventually decided in the McDonnells favour. Part of the legal case involved snakes. It was pointed out that Ireland has no snakes and Scotland does. Some snakes were released on Rathlin and they all died, so clearly Rathlin was Irish. QED.
In 1942 Nils Holmer reported of Rathlin that: “…the population used to be fishermen and sailors and a considerable intermarriage with (Mainland) Irish and Scots may be expected. Thus, of the nineteen persons listed as Irish speakers, three have mentioned Scottish parents or grandparents, three have supposed that their ancestors came from Scotland, while the rest know of no other than their Irish. As for those who believe their ancestors were Scots, it must be remembered that there is a common theory in the island that every single family of those living there now are descended from Scots settlers who came to the island after the complete massacres in the sixteenth or seventeenth century.
…Leaving the truth value of the historical evidence of a transplantation of inhabitants aside, it still remains a fact that the connections with Scotland are important.” (Antrim & Argyll – Some aspects of the Connections pp 99/100.)
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I love it Elwyn.
I am trying to find the story of a Saint who was banned from Ireland and travelled to the north of Ireland from Scotland, in a curragh I think, with clods of earth tied to his feet so that he could honestly say he had not set foot on Irish soil. Apparently he preached on the beach with these clods of earth on his feet.
This might have been a bit of blarney but known and approved of in our Protestant NZ/Irish family for the cleverness. :)
It's a new one on me, but sounds good.
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I love it Elwyn.
I am trying to find the story of a Saint who was banned from Ireland and travelled to the north of Ireland from Scotland, in a curragh I think, with clods of earth tied to his feet so that he could honestly say he had not set foot on Irish soil. Apparently he preached on the beach with these clods of earth on his feet.
This might have been a bit of blarney but known and approved of in our Protestant NZ/Irish family for the cleverness. :)
It's a new one on me, but sounds good.
See reply #19
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I love it Elwyn.
I am trying to find the story of a Saint who was banned from Ireland and travelled to the north of Ireland from Scotland, in a curragh I think, with clods of earth tied to his feet so that he could honestly say he had not set foot on Irish soil. Apparently he preached on the beach with these clods of earth on his feet.
This might have been a bit of blarney but known and approved of in our Protestant NZ/Irish family for the cleverness. :)
https://dailyscribbling.com/the-odd-side-of-donegal/the-warrior-saint-and-the-battle-of-the-book/
Yes it was St Columcille, several ancestors in late 1700s were married in St Columbs in Londonderry.