RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Wiltshire => Topic started by: Tikva on Wednesday 03 February 21 21:18 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I was wanting to find out whether or not there is anywhere I could access records of Policemen from the 1850's in the Wiltshire area? My 3 x great grandfather Thomas Keen/e is recorded as being a Policeman both on his daughter's birth record and also the census, and I was hoping I could find out more about Thomas through his records. Many thanks for any assistance.
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A similar question was asked a few weeks ago :D
See: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=842252.
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I see from the 1851 census he was at Purton. There are a couple of newspaper articles about him in the Devizes and Wiltshire Gazette. I don't have time to transcribe them now, but will try to later on today. :)
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I see from the 1851 census he was at Purton. There are a couple of newspaper articles about him in the Devizes and Wiltshire Gazette. I don't have time to transcribe them now, but will try to later on today. :)
Thank you so much! Yes, he is at Purton in the 1851 Census, but can't find him or his family in the 1841 census for some reason. His daughter, Louisa Jane, aka Jane, was born circa 1840 in Dover, Kent, so have been searching there as well as in Wiltshire and Gloucestershire, but no luck yet. Will keep trying!
I'd greatly appreciate it if you could transcribe any articles you find - thanks again.
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:)
SWINDON PETTY SESSIONS – Nov. 30th.
Before Revs. T. H. Ripley, Goddard, and Giles Daubeney …
ASSAULT ON A POLICE CONSTABLE IN EXECUTION OF DUTY. - Ro-
bert Telling, a mason, at Purton, was charged by Thomas Keene, a po-
lice constable, with assaulting him, at Purton. It appears Keene had
detained a girl named Earl, in custody on suspician of felony, and that
on the evening of the 13th Nov., defendant came to the constable’s
house in a violent and resolute manner, and demanded the cause of
the detention, and insisted on entering the house; and on being re-
fused admittance, shoved aside Keene violently, and committed the
alleged assault. A large mob collected round the constable in conse-
quence of defendant’s violence. - The defendant pleaded that he was
somewhat intoxicated, but he only wished to know what the caddle (as
he expressed it) was about the girl? - The Magistrates expressed in
strong terms their astonishment at such disreputable conduct on the
part of a man who, holding a responsible station in life, ought to pro-
tect, instead of interfering with the police, and that he ought to be
ashamed of allowing intoxication to be an excuse for such an offence.
Fined £2, to include costs – the defendant coolly requested of the Ma-
gistrates sufficient time to pay the amount, and on being refused, pulled
out the needful instantly, and paid the fine.
Devizes and Wiltshire Gazette, Thursday, Dec. 7, 1848,
PURTON,- The principal inhabitants of this parish
have presented police constable Thomas Keene with a very hand-
some Bible and Prayer Book, in testimony of the estimation in
which they held the services rendered by him to the extensive
parish in which he does duty, and in which he has been stationed
for 8 years. The presentation was made by the Rev. Canon
Prower, accompanied with a suitable address. A purse was also
given to his wife, and handsome presents to his children.
Devizes and Wiltshire Gazette, Thursday, Feb. 26, 1852
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The Great Western Railway Company are great sufferers from
the immense quantities of copper and brass stolen from their
works, and the difficulty which exists in detecting the depredators.
From information which police constable Keene had obtained, he
last week visited the house of John Baker at Purton, about mid-
night, and found therein a quantity of lead and about 86 lb.
Weight of copper and brass, a portion of which was identified as
being the property of the Company; and on Monday Thomas
Tengle and John Baker were committed by the Revds. T. H.
Ripley and Giles Daubeny, and J. E. Prower, esq., to the assizes
to take their trial - Teagle as the principal, and Baker as the receiver.
Baker was afterwards bailed.
Devizes and Wiltshire Gazette, Thursday, Apr. 27, 1848
Firing a Rick at Braydon.- Jane Curtis, 19, was indicted for
having on the 23rd. November last felonously set fire to a stack of
straw, the property of Jacob Bailey, at Braydon. Mr. ARNEY held the
brief for the prosecution; the prisoner was undefended.
Jacob Bailey – I am a farmer at Purton; the prisoner was my ser-
vant on the 23rd Nov. last. On the evening of that day there were only
my own family in the house; prisoner was sitting sewing at the table,
and she suddenly rose up, took the lantern just brought in by the
carter and lit it; she past by the brew-house and went out. Prisoner
was absent about five minutes, and brought back the lantern with the
light extinguished; she took up her sewing again and sewed for five
minutes. She had her shoes on, but took them off and warmed her feet
at the fire. Just after that the alarm of fire was given, and I went out
and found a rick of wheat-straw on fire; she was in the habit of light-
ing my fire with straw, but when she came back she brought no straw.
I gave information to police constable Keene the next morning. On
Monday the 29th, I had some conversation with the prisoner; Keene
was there and Keene said he should charge her with the fire; the pri-
soner said she wished to speak to the master by himself. Keene then
left the room, and she then said to me “Will you please forgive me
if I tells?” In order to pass this by, I said “Did you ever know me
do you any hurt since you have been in my service?”
His LORDSHIP said that appeared to him to convey this idea, “You
may judge my future actions by the past;” and he felt bound, ac-
cording to law, to exclude all that part of the conversation under a
promise of forgiveness.
Witness: I never promised her any forgiveness at all, my Lord.
The Judge: But when you, in the presence of the prisoner, said
“did you ever know me do you any hurt since you have been in my
service,” immediately on asking you to forgive her – it was that you
would not do anything to hurt her in the future. Wasn’t it?
As there was nothing to assume that the prisoner was the party who
set fire to the rick, but her own confession, she was acquitted.
Devizes and Wiltshire Gazette, Thursday, Mar. 10, 1853
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The Great Western Railway Company are great sufferers from
the immense quantities of copper and brass stolen from their
works, and the difficulty which exists in detecting the depredators.
From information which police constable Keene had obtained, he
last week visited the house of John Baker at Purton, about mid-
night, and found therein a quantity of lead and about 86 lb.
Weight of copper and brass, a portion of which was identified as
being the property of the Company; and on Monday Thomas
Tengle and John Baker were committed by the Revds. T. H.
Ripley and Giles Daubeny, and J. E. Prower, esq., to the assizes
to take their trial - Teagle as the principal, and Baker as the receiver.
Baker was afterwards bailed.
Devizes and Wiltshire Gazette, Thursday, Apr. 27, 1848
Firing a Rick at Braydon.- Jane Curtis, 19, was indicted for
having on the 23rd. November last felonously set fire to a stack of
straw, the property of Jacob Bailey, at Braydon. Mr. ARNEY held the
brief for the prosecution; the prisoner was undefended.
Jacob Bailey – I am a farmer at Purton; the prisoner was my ser-
vant on the 23rd Nov. last. On the evening of that day there were only
my own family in the house; prisoner was sitting sewing at the table,
and she suddenly rose up, took the lantern just brought in by the
carter and lit it; she past by the brew-house and went out. Prisoner
was absent about five minutes, and brought back the lantern with the
light extinguished; she took up her sewing again and sewed for five
minutes. She had her shoes on, but took them off and warmed her feet
at the fire. Just after that the alarm of fire was given, and I went out
and found a rick of wheat-straw on fire; she was in the habit of light-
ing my fire with straw, but when she came back she brought no straw.
I gave information to police constable Keene the next morning. On
Monday the 29th, I had some conversation with the prisoner; Keene
was there and Keene said he should charge her with the fire; the pri-
soner said she wished to speak to the master by himself. Keene then
left the room, and she then said to me “Will you please forgive me
if I tells?” In order to pass this by, I said “Did you ever know me
do you any hurt since you have been in my service?”
His LORDSHIP said that appeared to him to convey this idea, “You
may judge my future actions by the past;” and he felt bound, ac-
cording to law, to exclude all that part of the conversation under a
promise of forgiveness.
Witness: I never promised her any forgiveness at all, my Lord.
The Judge: But when you, in the presence of the prisoner, said
“did you ever know me do you any hurt since you have been in my
service,” immediately on asking you to forgive her – it was that you
would not do anything to hurt her in the future. Wasn’t it?
As there was nothing to assume that the prisoner was the party who
set fire to the rick, but her own confession, she was acquitted.
Devizes and Wiltshire Gazette, Thursday, Mar. 10, 1853
Wow!!!! Thank you so very very much for all of those :) Seems like he was a respected Officer in the community :)
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Family Search has this (will check on Ancestry)
Marriage at Hougham, Kent, England : 9 June 1840
Hougham, St Lawrence Kent
Name: Mary Ann HOPSON (There are HOPSON's born in Stroud) - on various census returns
father: John HOPSON
Name: Thomas KEEN
father: John KEEN
(as they are in Dover Kent, Thomas could have been at Sea - the Wedding Certificate would help.
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GRO INDEX
KEEN, Louisa Jane - mother's maiden name: HOBSON
1840 M Quarter - in DOVER UNION, VOLUME 05 PAGE 121
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Family Search has this (will check on Ancestry)
Marriage at Hougham, Kent, England : 9 June 1840
Hougham, St Lawrence Kent
Name: Mary Ann HOPSON (There are HOPSON's born in Stroud) - on various census returns
father: John HOPSON
Name: Thomas KEEN
father: John KEEN
(as they are in Dover Kent, Thomas could have been at Sea - the Wedding Certificate would help.
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GRO INDEX
KEEN, Louisa Jane - mother's maiden name: HOBSON
1840 M Quarter - in DOVER UNION, VOLUME 05 PAGE 121
Wow!!!! Thank you so very very much for that, as I've been searching for Thomas' marriage record. From his daughter Emma's birth record I was able to ascertain the mother's maiden name, ' but not the marriage. On Thomas' Police Record it says:
"Wife born at Rodborough. Previous trade or employment Private 90th Regiment of Foot. Army or Naval Reserve?"
So maybe he was at sea? Again, thank you so much!
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Some Hopson’s in Stroud are on the Non Conformist entries christened at Rodborough Tabernacle
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Some Hopson’s in Stroud are on the Non Conformist entries christened at Rodborough Tabernacle
Thank you for that - are those records able to be viewed online somewhere?
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I'm just looking at the Rodborough Marriages on Ancestry (witnesses are always useful)
John HOPSON - of this Parish and Edith GRACE of this Parish were married by Banns - 15 June 1828
both sign with an X (so they couldn't write)
Witnesses : Levi WOOD and Mary Anne HOPSON (again signed with an X)
I did see earlier today - a baptism of a Mary Anne HOPSON - in Rodborough - a bit earlier than her age on the census returns (but I've seen woman before give their ages wrong - especially if their husband is younger than them.
When Samuel SIMS married Ann HOPSON - at Rodborough, 22 December 1828, the witnesses were
John HOPSON and Edith HOPSON.
So... may be a family group to have a look at.
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This is most likely the wrong place to ask this, but when it comes to Death records you can order through GRO for people who died in the 1800's, can they provide any useful information about other family members? Am trying to find the most likely Death records for both Thomas Keen and his wife Mary Ann (nee Hopson), but not sure if ordering them will help me confirm that it is the death record for MY Thomas Keen and Mary Ann. Hope that makes sense. Thanks in advance.
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Unfortunately death certificates in England don't have all that much information compared to some other countries. It should show date and place of death, age, occupation, final residence and cause of death. It will have the name and relationship of informant and sometimes can give an indication on whether a spouse is still alive, though not always.
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Unfortunately death certificates in England don't have all that much information compared to some other countries. It should show date and place of death, age, occupation, final residence and cause of death. It will have the name and relationship of informant and sometimes can give an indication on whether a spouse is still alive, though not always.
Thank you for that information - most helpful :)
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If you Google
Gloucestershire Genealogical Database
Then click on the Heading: Gloucestershire Archives - Genealogical
This allows you to search for the records.
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TIKVA
I assume the death you are looking at is
Thomas KEENE
Birth 1816
Death: October 1880, Wiltshire, Highworth. (This is the correct District for Statton St Margaret)
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Firstly, my Paternal line, are living in Stratton St Margaret and very close to Thomas KEENE for a number of census returns -
I've had a look at the burial records for Stratton - no sign of Thomas KEENE.
There was a Workhouse at Stratton St Margaret - may be this is where Thomas was (no Pensions those days).
The Workhouse in Highworth & Swindon, Wiltshire (website)
Another site: Highworth Workhouse - Highworth Historical Society - says in 1881 there were 1405 people there.
The Radnor Street, Cemetary in Swindon was opened around this time - a very large cemetery.
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Highworth was the major town of North Wiltshire, but overtaken by nearby Swindon with thew advent of the GWR Railway Works.
Highworth & Swindon workhouse:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Highworth/
Scroll down for info re records.
Very few records survive.
Those that do survive will be at Wiltshire & Swindon Archives in Chippenham.
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Thank you very much for the helpful information - still trying to work it all out, but good to have those in the know assisting!
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I own the bible presented to police constable Thomas KEEN of Purton on 4th Feb 1852
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Welcome to RootsChat andyb9999.
That is amazing! Tikva hasn't been online here since 2023, but hopefully she still has the same email address and will receive notification of your post. I'm sure she will be very interested. :D
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I own the bible presented to police constable Thomas KEEN of Purton on 4th Feb 1852
Oh WOW! That is incredible! I have found information about him being presented that and a Prayer book, but to have the actual bible! Are you also a descendant of his?
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On Thomas' Police Record it says:
"Wife born at Rodborough. Previous trade or employment Private 90th Regiment of Foot. Army or Naval Reserve?"
So maybe he was at sea?
I was somewhat surprised by the reference to the 90th Regiment of Foot as this was a Scottish Regiment with the full title of 90th Regiment of Foot (Perthshire Volunteers) (Light Infantry). There was a Private Thomas Keene (number 1539) recorded in the 1841 Worldwide Index, where he is shown as being at the 90th Foot Regimental depot in Tralee, Ireland, but I am inclined to think, based on what we know so far, this is not the correct man.
The newspaper article from the Devizes and Wiltshire Gazette dated 7th Dec 1848 (shown above in posting #4 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=843911.msg7106885#msg7106885)) says that Constable Thomas Keene, had been a constable in the village of Purton for 8 years by the time of the news article, meaning that, unless the article was wrong, he can't also have been in the Army in Ireland in around April to June 1841. However the clincher would be if the register of his marriage in June 1840 showed whether he was still a soldier, or was by then already a policeman.
There is also the question of why, if the 1841 Worldwide Index entry is the correct person, he was in a Scottish Regiment's depot in Ireland if he came from Kent or Wiltshire, and how he came to marry a girl from Kent in 1840. The earliest that he might have joined the Army was 1834 when he was 18, so there was plenty of time for him to do his 5 years' colour service with the regiment (the 90th Foot was then stationed in Ceylon (https://www.lightinfantry.org.uk/regiments/perth/perth_timline.htm)) and then leave the Army in time to marry in Kent in 1840 and also join the police around the same time and start his job in Purton. This would also accord with the reference in his police record to him being an Army reservist since he would have had 7 years of reserve commitment after completing his 5 years of regular service.
The 1841 British Army Worldwide Index is a modern compilation by Kevin Asplin, created from muster rolls and pay lists between April and June 1841 held by the National Archives and so it is a snapshot in time which roughly corresponds to the 1841 census. The muster rolls were originally compiled on a monthly basis by each regiment or depot and would only include men who were present at the time (so excluding any reservists or those on furlough or detachment). If you were able to get to TNA at Kew it would be possible to check the muster rolls (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C150299) for the period 1834 -1841 for further traces of Private Thomas Keene 1539. which would show when he enlisted and when he left the Army. Unfortunately there is no easy way of knowing, based on his regimental number alone, when he enlisted.
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In the period 1832-35 the 90th Foot were in Ireland, before proceeding to Ceylon in January 1836. They sailed from Cork in Ireland although their ship briefly put into Plymouth for some repairs. The fact the Regiment does not appear to have been recruiting in England around the time when Thomas might have enlisted suggests that the more likely explanation is that he was recruited in Ireland. However the 1851 Census says that he was born in Minchinhampton, Gloucestershire. Interestingly the regimental history rtrelates that during their stay in Ceylon " ...and in January, 1839, the whole regiment marched from Colombo to Kandy. While stationed there the men suffered very severely from ophthalmia, several losing their sight entirely, and a great number having to be invalided home".
Might this draft have included Thomas and explain his presence in Tralee in 1841?
Also what might have brought him to Kent in 1839 where his daughter was evidently conceived, and where he married in June 1840? Bear in mind this was before the advent of the railways, and so getting around England, and between England and Ireland was not trivial.
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The Thomas Keen that married Mary Ann Hopson, Hougham, 9 Jun 1840 was a shoemaker, following in father's footsteps.
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The Thomas Keen that married Mary Ann Hopson, Hougham, 9 Jun 1840 was a shoemaker, following in father's footsteps.
I would need to dig back into my research on this, but from memory, he was a shoemaker before becoming a Policeman, and returned to being a shoemaker after leaving the force.
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He did - I thought I'd posted that information after finding him in '61 back with his father.
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I did manage to obtain some information about Thomas Keen's police record, which you can see in the attached image. However, there is a lot of information missing, and some of it is unclear whether or not it is a question or an answer. I hope that makes sense.
I do know that the Thomas Keen who was a Policeman was the father of my 2 x great grandmother Emma Keen, as it is recorded on her Marriage record as his occupation.
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I own the bible presented to police constable Thomas KEEN of Purton on 4th Feb 1852
Oh WOW! That is incredible! I have found information about him being presented that and a Prayer book, but to have the actual bible! Are you also a descendant of his?
No i am not a descendant I just bought a bible and searched the handwritten note and found you guys on here so joined rootschat to share my find sadly I only have the Bible not the prayer book
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His police service record is interesting, if a bit ambiguous as you mention. In particular, his date of entry makes it possible that he could have been in the Army in April 1841 and left in time to join the Police a year later. Do you have his marriage certificate? This is likely to contain a reference to his occupation and hence whether the Pte Thomas Keene 1539 in the 30th Foot was most likely the father of your 2 x great grandmother.
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His police service record is interesting, if a bit ambiguous as you mention. In particular, his date of entry makes it possible that he could have been in the Army in April 1841 and left in time to join the Police a year later. Do you have his marriage certificate? This is likely to contain a reference to his occupation and hence whether the Pte Thomas Keene 1539 in the 30th Foot was most likely the father of your 2 x great grandmother.
See reply #24
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I don't see the point you are making. Are you saying that the Thomas Keen who married in Dover in June 1840 is not the correct person?
Added. Ok I do understand. Thomas was a shoemaker at the time of his wedding, so not in the Army.
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On Thomas' Police Record it says:
"Wife born at Rodborough. Previous trade or employment Private 90th Regiment of Foot. Army or Naval Reserve?"
So maybe he was at sea?
I was somewhat surprised by the reference to the 90th Regiment of Foot as this was a Scottish Regiment with the full title of 90th Regiment of Foot (Perthshire Volunteers) (Light Infantry). There was a Private Thomas Keene (number 1539) recorded in the 1841 Worldwide Index, where he is shown as being at the 90th Foot Regimental depot in Tralee, Ireland, but I am inclined to think, based on what we know so far, this is not the correct man.
The newspaper article from the Devizes and Wiltshire Gazette dated 7th Dec 1848 (shown above in posting #4 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=843911.msg7106885#msg7106885)) says that Constable Thomas Keene, had been a constable in the village of Purton for 8 years by the time of the news article, meaning that, unless the article was wrong, he can't also have been in the Army in Ireland in around April to June 1841. However the clincher would be if the register of his marriage in June 1840 showed whether he was still a soldier, or was by then already a policeman.
There is also the question of why, if the 1841 Worldwide Index entry is the correct person, he was in a Scottish Regiment's depot in Ireland if he came from Kent or Wiltshire, and how he came to marry a girl from Kent in 1840. The earliest that he might have joined the Army was 1834 when he was 18, so there was plenty of time for him to do his 5 years' colour service with the regiment (the 90th Foot was then stationed in Ceylon (https://www.lightinfantry.org.uk/regiments/perth/perth_timline.htm)) and then leave the Army in time to marry in Kent in 1840 and also join the police around the same time and start his job in Purton. This would also accord with the reference in his police record to him being an Army reservist since he would have had 7 years of reserve commitment after completing his 5 years of regular service.
The 1841 British Army Worldwide Index is a modern compilation by Kevin Asplin, created from muster rolls and pay lists between April and June 1841 held by the National Archives and so it is a snapshot in time which roughly corresponds to the 1841 census. The muster rolls were originally compiled on a monthly basis by each regiment or depot and would only include men who were present at the time (so excluding any reservists or those on furlough or detachment). If you were able to get to TNA at Kew it would be possible to check the muster rolls (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C150299) for the period 1834 -1841 for further traces of Private Thomas Keene 1539. which would show when he enlisted and when he left the Army. Unfortunately there is no easy way of knowing, based on his regimental number alone, when he enlisted.
My apologies for not responding to this sooner. Your in depth knowledge of this is clearly quite extensive, and I'm not quite sure what to make of it all. Unfortunately, given that I live in New Zealand I am unable to visit The National Archives. I do wonder if Thomas Keen/e might have embellished his previous employment when applying to be a Policeman. It would be interesting to find out what processes they followed back then for checking an applicants references.
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I own the bible presented to police constable Thomas KEEN of Purton on 4th Feb 1852
Oh WOW! That is incredible! I have found information about him being presented that and a Prayer book, but to have the actual bible! Are you also a descendant of his?
Hi trying to contact you but I can’t message you as I have only just joined the forum
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Wiltshire Gazette on 19th December 1839. It read:
WANTED FOR THE CONSTABULARY FORCE
in the COUNTY OF WILTS.
CONSTABLES.
Their pay to be 17/6d. per week, with clothing.
To be under forty years of age.
To stand five feet six inches without shoes.
To read and write and keep accounts.
To be free from any bodily complaint, of strong constitution
and generally intelligent.
The form of certificate of character to be signed by one or
more respectable persons, who have had personal knowledge
of the candidate during the last five years at least, either singly
or collectively, may be had by personal application to
Captain Meredith at the Magistrates' Office at Devizes
on Tuesdays and Friday, until on 31st December instant,
between the hours of ten and three o'clock.'
From ; https://narpo-wilts.org.uk/files/History-Wilts-Const.pdf