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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: foxoak on Tuesday 02 February 21 09:17 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to pinpoint the parents of a John Lindsay born around 1790 who was a spademaker in Sanquhar (Crawick Mill) and can be found on the 1841 and 1851 census, but not later. He married a Grace Bannatyne in 1818 in Muirkirk.
But I can't find their birth records to confirm parents names and dates of birth. I was told that death records would give parents names - but I can't find those either. So am I just looking in the wrong places, or are they not available? I have read that parish registration was patchy to say the least, especially as far as deaths were concerned, so I understand that they may be non-existant. I'm just wondering if there are any experts out there who could help!! Any clarification much appreciated!
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On Scotlands People have a look in the section of Wills and Testaments - there is an item there which might be your John Lindsay dated 1854.
If they died before 1855 there will not be a registered death with parents’ names, etc. If you are lucky there may be a burial record, but it is unlikely to give you much information.
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LINDSAY JOHN GRIZAL BANNATYNE 12/06/1818 Muirkirk
Did the marriage give any extra information?
Grizal noted as Grace on 1841 census, All family noted as born Dumfriesshire.
Did the 1851 give their place of birth?
8 children on 1841 census but only two birth records on SP mother Grizzel, none for Grace?
LINDSAY ISABEL JOHN LINDSAY/GRIZZEL BALLANTINE 04/03/1824 Sanquhar
LINDSAY ARCHIBALD JOHN LINDSAY/GRIZZEL BALLANTINE 28/10/1821 Sanquhar
There are two statutory deaths in Sanquhar before 1871, I see Samuel on the 1841 census but not Andrew?
SAMUEL LINDSAY Died age 32 MMN BALLANTYNE 1863 848/ 22 Sanquhar
ANDREW LINDSAY Died no age MMN BALLANTYNE 1862 Sanquhar
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I'll have a look at the will and testament area - I'd forgotten to look there.
The marriage register said "John Lindsay of Sanquhar and Grizel Bannatyne of this parish (Muirkirk) - I've had no luck there either so far.
Before 1855 would it not have been necessary for parish registers to register deaths? Did they really just bury people with no record?
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The burial records on SP are limited in many parishes before 1855, when I checked the records available for Sanquhar I think there were just a few years before 1750. You can check all the parish BMD records available on the site.
Colin
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SP has a death certificate for John Lindsay (mother's maiden name McGhie) who died in Sanquhar in 1860 (ref. 848/51). If it's your man, it should give the names of both his parents.
Margow
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Before 1855 would it not have been necessary for parish registers to register deaths?
No.
Did they really just bury people with no record?
Yes.
I have read that the church wasn't really very interested in noting death details, because the deceased had gone on to a better place and it wasn't necessary to keep records, as everything necessary would be known in heaven. Or something along those lines.
Before the start of civil registration in 1855 you will rarely get any information about a person's parents in their marriage record, and you only get the father's name in a burial record if the person who died was a young child.
Sources for deaths before 1855 are
- Parish registers. However only a minority of parishes kept registers of deaths/burials.
- Burial records. There are a few surviving burial books which are not part of a parish register.
- Gravestones. But only a small proportion of people have a gravestone.
- Mortcloth records. Every parish had one or more mortcloths that were hired out to cover the coffin during the funeral services. The fees collected are often listed in the records of the Kirk Session, and usually include the name of the person whose funeral it was used for.
- Newspaper announcements. Again, only a very small minority of people's deaths were included
- Wills and testaments. As ever, a minority but not necessarily only the rich and/or illustrious left a will or an estate large enough to warrant confirmation (NB despite what assorted web sites would have you believe, there is no such thing as probate in Scots Law. The corresponding legal process in Scotland is confirmation.)
- Sasines. These are the records of transfer of ownership of land, and will often state the date of death if the change of ownership is by inheritance rather than sale.
- Services of heirs. This is when an heir has gone through a legal process to establish their right to inherit, and sometimes gives a date of death of the person from whom they are inheriting. However these too are only a small proportion of the population.
- Other. I can't actually think of any other sources offhand, but I'm sure someone else will remember something I've forgotten.
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MEMORIALS OF
SANQUHAR KIRKYARD
by TOM WILSON
Published in 1912
http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~cdobie/history/sanquhar.htm
This has a number of references to Lindsay on there, including a John Lindsay, Crawickmill.
Monica
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Looking at the names of the children of John Lindsay and Grizel may give some clues. Are you aware of any of the children having a second or middle name?
As far as I can see the children are:
James 1818
John 1821
Isabella 1824
Archibald 1826
Jean 1829
Samuel 1832
Isabel 1836
Helen 1839
Andrew 1841
Note: Grizel is BALLANTYNE on childrens baptism records
A possible baptism for John Lindsay is 14/09/1791 Muirkirk to Andrew Lindsay and Janet Lamb.
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Ancestry shows John and Grizzel born in Sanquhar on their 1851 census entry. Not seeing anything for them on the basis of that birth place.
Added: See also www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=84803078
Did Grizzel live past 1855 and the start of official registration? If so, have you checked her death registration to see what it mentions regarding her parents' names (if known to the informant)?
Monica
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Thank you Forfarian for that information about records, it's clarified plenty. Unfortunately the John Lindsay's referenced in Memorials of Sanquhar Churchyard have no dates attached - and obviously at the moment we can't go and visit.
I haven't found a death for Grizzel/Grace, or John - so no parents names, and so far no middle names of children to indicate the maiden name of mother or grandmother. No trace on the 1861 census.
I am aware that there are lots of people on Ancestry who have a John Lindsay born 1791 to an Andrew Lindsay and Janet Lamb - he could be ours - or not. There is only circumstantial evidence, not firm proof, that it could be him.
Thank you all for your help - I will keep looking.
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lots of people on Ancestry have a John Lindsay born 1791 to an Andrew Lindsay and Janet Lamb - There is only circumstantial evidence, not firm proof, that it could be him.
Can you post all the details of the 'circumstantial evidence' which others may be able to prove/disprove?
Annie
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28th May 1851 edition of the Dumfries and Galloway Standard has the following death
. At Crawickbridge, on the 10th instant, Grace Bannatyne, wife of John Lindsay, carter
Several reports in 1845 newspapers of a young man, Archibald Lindsay of Crawickbridge, and two friends, all employed at Crawick Forge, involved in a, as the papers say, 'melancholy incident' on their way home at night from a fishing trip, resulting in the death of one of them. Archibald recovered.
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As a JOHN LINDSAY was born to ANDREW LINDSAY/JANET LAMB
in Muirkirk 14/09/1791. I guess it is possible that he met Grace/Grizel there before his move to Sanquhar?
Colin
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28th May 1851 edition of the Dumfries and Galloway Standard has the following death
. At Crawickbridge, on the 10th instant, Grace Bannatyne, wife of John Lindsay, carter
Several reports in 1845 newspapers of a young man, Archibald Lindsay of Crawickbridge, and two friends, all employed at Crawick Forge, involved in a, as the papers say, 'melancholy incident' on their way home at night from a fishing trip, resulting in the death of one of them. Archibald recovered.
Brilliant, thank you - yes that's our Grace!
I imagine that the Archibald also mentioned is the son of Grace and John Lindsay, as he was a spademaker employed at the forge. I haven't got access to newspapers online at the moment, so couldn't research there. Is there anywhere else other than Findmypast that do online newspapers?
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As a JOHN LINDSAY was born to ANDREW LINDSAY/JANET LAMB
in Muirkirk 14/09/1791. I guess it is possible that he met Grace/Grizel there before his move to Sanquhar?
Colin
Yes, there is a John Lindsay born 1791 in Muirkirk to Andrew Lindsay and Janet Lamb. And our John Lindsay married Grace/Grizel in Muirkirk - so there is very strong circumstantial evidence that it is him - that he left Muirkirk to go to work at the Forge in Sanquhar - we have found an apprenticeship for him signed in 1802 in Sanquhar. I just haven't been able to prove that the John Lindsay b1791 in Muirkirk is the John Lindsay who married Grizel in 1818.
I'll run with that for now!
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British newspaper archive
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/