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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: Catservant on Thursday 28 January 21 13:50 GMT (UK)
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Emily is my 2nd great grandmother. The only things I know for certain about her are that her married name was Winn/Wynn. She spent her married life in Newcastle upon Tyne and died a young mother. From the GRO, I can see that her mother’s maiden name was Lyon and from the 1861 census where she’s incorrectly listed as Emily Wain, her origin is Scotland.
Having looked extensively at Scotland’s People, there seem to be very few Emily Lyons and no birth records for any. I narrowed her to one of 2 Emily Lyons from Edinburgh. I’ve discounted one as she died in middle age. She married John Hunter and an Emily Hunter with the correct mother’s maiden name listed, died. This leaves a child listed on the 1841 census as living with widow Lyon and brothers Alex and William. I think widow Lyon might have been born Margaret Austie and her deceased husband was William Lyon. They seem to have mainly lived in the St Cuthbert’s district. William and Margaret appear to have had a daughter Marion Gray Lyon who died as a small child in 1838. I think Alex’s full name was Alexander Monteith Lyon.
I would like, to be able to find for definite the Emily I’m looking for. I wondered if maybe she was just living with widow Lyon as daughter and had been born to someone else. Maybe after Marion and her father died, Widow Lyon needed help so had a young female relative live with her as a daughter? Any help gratefully appreciated.
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One bit at a time
If she was born in Scotland you would not see her mothers maiden name on "the GRO" It would be on Scotlands People
You say you have her in 1861 as Wain - freebmd shows she married Francis Winn in June qtr 1861 so either he was previously married or she was as the 1861 shows children born before 1861
Do you have a copy of that marriage cert? Any fathers name shown?
Daughter Ann was b 1858 - mmn Lyon
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This is her in 1851
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGX4-W9V
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Adding 1861 -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7N7-PLT
ev
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1841-
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a151adff4040b9d6e26f5a7/emily-lyon-1841-midlothian-edinburgh-1829-?locale=en
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There is also an Emily Lyon on 1851 scottish census in Edinburgh, age 17. There are no recorded births for a Emily Lyon on SP
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Thanks for the links both.
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Carole-wain is just an incorrect transcription. They are also variously listed as Winn and Wynn.
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I agree that Wain is a mistranscription, though the original isn't all that clear and I can see how a transcriber might have read it as Wain
There's a 14-year-old John in the family, and there is a birth of John Winn, mother's maiden surname MacInally, in Newcastle in 1846. In 1851 there's a family consisting of Francis, 28; wife Margaret, 25, son Francis, 8, son John, 5, and daughter Margaret, 2. Margaret Winn, 25, died in Newcastle in 1851 aged 25 and another Margaret Winn, aged 3, died later the same year. So it does look as if Francis as married before.
As CaroleW says, you need to get a copy of the marriage certificate. Ann's birth certificate might also be of interest.
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Here's the marriage entry from FS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QP7B-9VPH
I think the 1841 entry you found with mother shown as "widow Lyon" is the right entry
If you look up the births for sons Alexander (1834) & William (1837) on SP you will find parents were William Lyon & Margaret Austie
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Thanks for further info everyone. Yes you’re right Forfarian. Francis was previously married to Margaret Macinally. She died and he then married Emily. Emily had Ann and Ellen and also had some of the older children living with her initially.
Emily’s later life was very sad. She died when she rushed to help her female neighbour who was being attacked by her brother. It was in all of the local papers in 1864. They had a very quaint way of writing newspaper stories at that time!
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How do you get a copy of an England marriage certificate, if there is no reference to the certificate online? There is a reference tomFrancis and Emily’s marriage in the marriage index. Is this enough info to apply for the certificate?
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See https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate
For marriage certificates you can get the reference number from https://www.freebmd.org.uk/search
However I see that CaroleW has found an index listing of the marriage on FamilySearch that says Emily's father's name was William Lyon, which is the most important detail for present purposes. The marriage certificate should tell you his occupation and whether or not he was deceased.
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Hello. I’m returning to this thread as I’ve received Emily’s marriage certificate in the post. It conforms what I’d thought, that her father William Lyon was a bookbinder. On one (at least) of her sibling’s death certificates, his father is listed as a bookbinder. He worked at Pleasance in the centre of Edinburgh.
Through Scotland’s People, I have found more siblings for Emily and for each there is baptism information and for some, death information. Her 7 siblings: John, Janet, Margaret, Henry, Marion Gray, Alexander Monteith and William were all born between 1816 and 1837 with their baptism info listing parents William Lyon and Margaret Austie (sometimes spelled Austin).
So now that I know Emily is William’s daughter and there is evidence of her living with Margaret and the 2 youngest boys in the 1841 census, I cannot fathom why she is the only one to have no birth/baptism evidence online that I can find. If there is any, it’s likely to be that she’s as born in the St Cuthbert’s area of Edinburgh. If anyone can find any birth evidence for her, I’d be so grateful.
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Hello. I’m returning to this thread as I’ve received Emily’s marriage certificate in the post. It conforms what I’d thought, that her father William Lyon was a bookbinder. On one (at least) of her sibling’s death certificates, his father is listed as a bookbinder. He worked at Pleasance in the centre of Edinburgh.
Good progress.
So now that I know Emily is William’s daughter and there is evidence of her living with Margaret and the 2 youngest boys in the 1841 census, I cannot fathom why she is the only one to have no birth/baptism evidence online that I can find.
Most likely the event was never written down - maybe the parents omitted to get her baptised, or neglected to get it recorded, or the clerk forgot to write it down, or something of the sort.
BTW don't expect all information to be available online. Almost all surviving baptisms before 1855 are indeed online, but there is far more information offline than there is online, generally speaking.
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Thanks Forfarian. I think I’ll have to accept that I won’t find anything to prove she was born or baptised.
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I have a theory in my mind that she could be the daughter of one of William and Margaret’s older 2 children and was brought up by grandparents as their own?
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I have a theory in my mind that she could be the daughter of one of William and Margaret’s older 2 children and was brought up by grandparents as their own?
William and Margaret's eldest daughter Janet was born late in 1818. Emily was 12 in the 1841 census, which means that she was born in 1828 or 1829, when Janet was at most 10 years old.
I think I’ll have to accept that I won’t find anything to prove she was born or baptised.
I think the fact that she got married and had a family and died is enough to prove that she was born, even if it doesn't prove exactly when she was born :)