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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: chiddicks on Wednesday 27 January 21 13:08 GMT (UK)
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I have been thinking about this a lot recently, when is a fact a genuine fact, even details we find on a Birth Certificate, a child’s name, a fathers name or the DOB Itself? How can we prove categorically that these details are in fact correct?
https://chiddicksfamilytree.com/2021/01/27/how-do-we-differentiate-between-fact-and-fiction/
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Don't think we can
I have a cert here 1893, father named as mother's first husband and shown as "dec", he wasn't, she then took a totally different man to court and sued him, his name was not on the cert and he doesn't feature anywhere in the family, he had to pay her a single payment through the court, it is something I have wondered about for years, no DNA in those days, apart from word it cannot be proved, can it ?
Louisa Maud
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My dad used his step-father's surname and listed his step-father, Alec, as his father on his marriage certificate. My gran didn't marry Alec until my dad was 2 years old, and he definitely wasn't my dad's father. There's no father listed on his birth certificate (though the family knew who his father was - it was a short wartime romance). Anyone researching in the future, without the benefit of family knowledge and DNA, would probably assume that Alec was the father and would research that whole line.
My great grandfather lied about his age on his marriage certificate. He was 19 when he married, but he said he was 21. He and my great gran already had a child and were living with her parents. I assume he lied so that he didn't have to get his parents permission for the marriage.
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I agree that we can never be sure. Even our own memories cannot be trusted.
But, for the most part, I would argue that I doesn't matter. If there is no inheritance involved, or there is no need to differentiate between murder and manslaughter, why does a date matter.
Even the supposed importance of a child being born out of wedlock. I believe that the importance is that the life was lived rather than it conformed to some artificial construct.
Regards
Chas
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"details we find on a Birth Certificate"
That kind of fact could, at least in theory, be verified by DNA.
Other kinds of 'facts' are much tougher to pin down. Is it true that [as my grandmother maintained] her father, unlike his brothers, did not serve in the Union Army because he was designated to stay home and look out for the women and children in the village? Or was he a shirker? Did Eliza Ennis really run out the back door to elope with Alonzo Yates when she saw her angry father approaching the front door of the inn where she worked, as reported in the History of Columbia County, Wisconsin? Or was that just a funny story?
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Thanks for the comments much appreciated, its a great topic to debate and. I know that we have the genealogical proof standard to work too.
I guess it only matters, from a genealogy perspective, if we are following the incorrect family line, in terms of the accuracy of your tree.
I am sure that we all have ancestors who have been liberal with the truth on the documents we find, part of the fun is also trying to work out the fact from the fiction!
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Truth is what you see it as being, but is it so? Some sayings about truth here:-
https://www.wisesayings.com/truth-quotes/
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No way to be 100% sure, people lied on official documents, and probably still do. I say hospital birth records are more reliable than actual birth certs as anyone can fudge a date on a birth cert, if the birth was registered late or for another reason.
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‘ In summary: the strongest case is made using multiple, correlating original records made by known, independent informants’
I find it annoying that the fact of the matter is difficult to substantiate.
Also, annoying that I can not show my findings to anyone in my family that must have shielded me from certain events, that is, if they were aware of them themselves
I have circumstantial evidence that my maternal ex mechanic, soldier, cafe proprietor, businessman grandfather might not have been the kindly old man whose knee I sat upon in the early 1950s.
My late uncle left me a a fragment of a photograph of a figure of a man that looked rather like Al Capone standing next to two older men in bowlers and a woman with a fedora hat on. It was some time before I discovered that the picture was taken at a wedding reception when, through investigation and good fortune I was able to connect with a distant relation, even older than myself, who managed to provide me with a facsimile of the complete picture from which my fragment had been torn. Then it was some time more before I realised that the Capone like figure was my grandfather. Why had his likeness been separated from the group I wondered.
Some months, or, years later I visited a cousin, famous in his own right, although it is in the realms of public knowledge as to why I am only letting readers know to try and arouse their interest. He showed me a picture of a Daimler with his father standing next to it. The car was probably used as a taxi in one or the businesses that my GF had a hand it. Or, it may have been owned by gf’s friend and associate racehorse Trainer Tommy Westhead. Where did such a vehicle come from one may wonder. It was presumably obtained in the years of postwar austerity. Perhaps it was material obtained from the USA Lend Lease scheme and stored in the bonded warehouse that GF and son used to keep an eye on when they were in the Home Guard.
It it wise not to keep a secret ?
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Interesting story Nifty sometimes keeping secrets for too long ends up being far worse than the actual secret itself. Also the burden of responsibility of the person keeping the secret can be a tough cross to bear
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Also sometimes I wonder if genealogy is really for me if there is always the chance of informal adoptions and the odd NPE to be thrown into the mix, are some of the lines I am tracing really my ancestors? Is DNA testing blowing our research to bits and revealing surprises?
For instance if your ancestor was the oldest child and the bride was several months pregnant at the time she married, does make you think. I have a bride who was 7 months pregnant when she married in May 1784, and the eldest daughter is my ancestor, born July 1784 in Bethnal Green.
I know they say it is whoever bought you up and was a major influence, but genetics also plays a huge part in shaping your lives.
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We can't really....... all we can do is use the written records we can and 'trust' they are true.
One of my great grandfathers civil records and parish records tell me 'factually' who his parents were........ after 40 yrs of research I 'beleive' the father documented is not his real father and I 'beleive' strongly who was and so also have family history documented based on civil/parish record proof and family history documented on who I 'beleive' is his father line along with why I 'beleive' it.
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Interesting story Nifty sometimes keeping secrets for too long ends up being far worse than the actual secret itself. Also the burden of responsibility of the person keeping the secret can be a tough cross to bear
You have only read a fraction of it ;
I intent to attract the attention of the maker’s of something like WDYTYA and perhaps get some help with some of the points that have eluded me in telling something of the saga in the richness that I think it deserves.
I am searching for a folder of pics of GF that my late uncle gave to my cousin at my mother’s funeral in 2011. After I had uncovered more about gf’s life I tried to contact said cousin and found that he had died. I contacted his widow She had no idea where the pics were. In thinking as to where they might be I am hoping that he gave them to his son through his first marriage, but, as yet have failed to contact the son.
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I've a marriage certificate for a 2x great grandfather that shows him 10 years younger than he really was, probably to make the age gap between him and his second wife more acceptable (20 years reduced to 10)
Other records for him are pretty accurate before and after the marriage
I also heard from a reliable source that a great uncle's birthday was earlier than his birth certificate claims.
Griff
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I think you just have to hope for the best in FH, and just conclude that the father named on the birth/baptism cert is the father, and just go for the 99.9% chance and always leave room for the 0.01% realm of doubt. If you want 100% then maybe genealogy is not for you, always allow a small shred of uncertainty, and you will feel better. Bridal pregnancy was rife as well, hence shotgun weddings.
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Also sometimes I wonder if genealogy is really for me if there is always the chance of informal adoptions and the odd NPE to be thrown into the mix, are some of the lines I am tracing really my ancestors? Is DNA testing blowing our research to bits and revealing surprises?
For instance if your ancestor was the oldest child and the bride was several months pregnant at the time she married, does make you think. I have a bride who was 7 months pregnant when she married in May 1784, and the eldest daughter is my ancestor, born July 1784 in Bethnal Green.
I know they say it is whoever bought you up and was a major influence, but genetics also plays a huge part in shaping your lives.
I think a lot of us have similar examples in our own families, if I do the maths on a lot of the births, 9 months isn’t always the answer. I have others where grandparents are listed as parents and mothers become older sisters, it happened quite a lot.
With regards a NPE, I have a very close NPE, discovered through DNA and I know we all look at things differently, but I now look at it that I have three lines to follow on that side instead of two.
But that might not be for everyone
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‘ genetics also plays a huge part in shaping your lives.‘
Indeed.
I would like to know how.
Can anyone recommend any material on what is known about the mechanism of transmission of family traits through the generations ?
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‘ genetics also plays a huge part in shaping your lives.‘
Indeed.
I would like to know how.
Can anyone recommend any material on what is known about the mechanism of transmission of family traits through the generations ?
Through DNA I should wonder.
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For instance if your ancestor was the oldest child and the bride was several months pregnant at the time she married, does make you think. I have a bride who was 7 months pregnant when she married in May 1784, and the eldest daughter is my ancestor, born July 1784 in Bethnal Green.
I remember sitting in on a talk by a well known SOG member at a WDYTYA exhibition many years ago and he talked about his theory.
If the couple marry before the baby is born then they would have probably married anyway.
If they wait until the baby is born and lives the the groom probably didn’t intend to marry but had to, if the baby didn’t survive then he had a near miss and unlikely to marry the mother.
If a year or more passes before the mother marries then the groom is unlikely to be the father of the child. Of course you should double check to see if there is any reason why the couple didn’t marry earlier.
Then there is a case where a pregnant woman finds a man to marry her just so the she can say she is married when the baby is born. The groom will be long gone by then.
All food for thought! Hard to prove any of the above too.
.
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For instance if your ancestor was the oldest child and the bride was several months pregnant at the time she married, does make you think. I have a bride who was 7 months pregnant when she married in May 1784, and the eldest daughter is my ancestor, born July 1784 in Bethnal Green.
I remember sitting in on a talk by a well known SOG member at a WDYTYA exhibition many years ago and he talked about his theory.
If the couple marry before the baby is born then they would have probably married anyway.
If they wait until the baby is born and lives the the groom probably didn’t intend to marry but had to, if the baby didn’t survive then he had a near miss and unlikely to marry the mother.
If a year or more passes before the mother marries then the groom is unlikely to be the father of the child. Of course you should double check to see if there is any reason why the couple didn’t marry earlier.
Then there is a case where a pregnant woman finds a man to marry her just so the she can say she is married when the baby is born. The groom will be long gone by then.
All food for thought! Hard to prove any of the above too.
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Yes, my ancestor was born July 1784, so probably conceived in October 1783. Her mother Susan, 18 at the time of conception, was the daughter of a Bethnal Green weaver.
Her future husband was also a Bethnal Green weaver 9 years her senior. She and him had their banns read on the 9th May, 16th May and 23rd May 1784, and wed on 26th May. The daughter was born 15th July 1784 and baptised that August as the daughter of the mother and her new husband. The fact she was over 7 months pregnant at the time of marriage does make you think though, was the man she married the father, or did she find a man to marry her to attempt to "legitimise" the baby?
Always a niggling doubt that does make you wonder whether all the years of research into that line is all for nothing?
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Funny isn't it how today's genealogists are finding so many secrets our forbearers took to the grave. They weren't worried about offspring, grandchildren or whoever not knowing the truth.
I've found lots of "anomalies" and through patience and time got to the bottom of it.
A son of 2x great grandparents, 1871 census who disappeared, to a grandson of the same couple with the same Christian name and age, but different surname 1881 census, to the 3rd person in my great grandparents grave, supposedly an orphan, taken in as a young child by my 2x great grandparents. All the same person but everyone believing the orphan story.
My Welsh aunt visited the farm where this chap had worked in the early 1900's. And old man there remembered him and produced a photo. The family resemblance was very striking, because he was the illegitimate son of my great gran's sister.
I'm very tempted to go down the DNA route, I'd be very surprised if I didn't find a few secrets, from the distant past right up to the possibility of half siblings spread around the north of England.
Could keep me going for years!
Griff
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This thread has all the hallmarks of a "whodunnit" play. The timing of births is questioned, and nobody gives any explanation. It was quite common for early births if mother did heavy work at a critical time. I had a seven month pregnancy, the pregnancy ended with a breech birth due to unaccustomed exercise, something so simple as going Scottish dancing one evening then next day borrowing a neighbour's bicycle and cycling up and down a one in ten hill.
I once picked out an early 1900s photo from a series of one thousand Lipton photos taken on board a ship because the anonymous chap stood to attention like my late OH. I sent it to my brother-in-law and he thanked me for sending him a photo of his Uncle Wm (who manufactured paint) and Aunt Jenny. The trait my late OH received from his ancestors was to be independent. He had one year of being employed and decided he wanted to be self employed. This trait runs right through his tree, (one female ancestor made bonnets, then opened up her own hat shop). This trait has been passed down to a grandson who, pennyless and aged 21, set up his own company working from his mother's kitchen.
https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/inheritance-of-traits-by-offspring-follows-predictable-6524925/
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I would not say it was the norm, but in East Anglia, couples often waited till the woman was pregnant to make sure that everything worked.
Regards
Chas
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I have been thinking about this a lot recently, when is a fact a genuine fact, even details we find on a Birth Certificate, a child’s name, a fathers name or the DOB Itself? How can we prove categorically that these details are in fact correct?
https://chiddicksfamilytree.com/2021/01/27/how-do-we-differentiate-between-fact-and-fiction/
It depends on what you mean by “How can we prove categorically that these details are in fact correct?” If you mean 100% accurate we cannot, but good throrough research lessens the chance of error.
It is possible if both possible fathers are alive to take additional DNA tests that increases the accuracy of the assumption but even then there is a 1% chance of error.
We cannot even be certain that the mother of a child is a mother as a number of court casrs have shown. The most publicised is probably the Lydia Fairchild case where a court ruled on DNA evidence she was not the mother of her two children.
She was at the time pregnant with her 3rd child and the judge ordered that an observer be present at the birth, ensure that blood samples were immediately taken from both the child and Fairchild, and be available to testify. The DNA showed she was not the mother of the child she gave birth to, a later test showed that this was a case of chimerism where the person was carrying two different sets of DNA .
In other words we can never be 100% certain but with careful research and an open mind we can weigh the evidence and make a conclusion based on the facts we have.
In your blog you mention about details on gravestones, one good example of an error is found here
http://anguline.co.uk/cert/stone.html where a person died February 31st 1898, this is in a local churchyard.
I was sent a good clear typed certificate from the General Register Office Scotland of my mother's second marriage where her surname was given as IMY or GITTINS, Gittins was her married name but her maiden name was GUY not IMY, if she was a distant ancestor I had just discovered would I have sent the certificate back for correction?
I would also add one last point never close research on any person in your tree, 65 odd years of research has taught me that more often than not there is something else that can be found out.
Cheers
Guy
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I am also really interested in Ancestral Memory, are our thoughts, likes dislikes, and memories influenced by our ancestors?? There are some really great stories about this online.
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I have been thinking about this a lot recently, when is a fact a genuine fact, even details we find on a Birth Certificate, a child’s name, a fathers name or the DOB Itself? How can we prove categorically that these details are in fact correct?
https://chiddicksfamilytree.com/2021/01/27/how-do-we-differentiate-between-fact-and-fiction/
It depends on what you mean by “How can we prove categorically that these details are in fact correct?” If you mean 100% accurate we cannot, but good throrough research lessens the chance of error.
It is possible if both possible fathers are alive to take additional DNA tests that increases the accuracy of the assumption but even then there is a 1% chance of error.
We cannot even be certain that the mother of a child is a mother as a number of court casrs have shown. The most publicised is probably the Lydia Fairchild case where a court ruled on DNA evidence she was not the mother of her two children.
She was at the time pregnant with her 3rd child and the judge ordered that an observer be present at the birth, ensure that blood samples were immediately taken from both the child and Fairchild, and be available to testify. The DNA showed she was not the mother of the child she gave birth to, a later test showed that this was a case of chimerism where the person was carrying two different sets of DNA .
In other words we can never be 100% certain but with careful research and an open mind we can weigh the evidence and make a conclusion based on the facts we have.
In your blog you mention about details on gravestones, one good example of an error is found here
http://anguline.co.uk/cert/stone.html where a person died February 31st 1898, this is in a local churchyard.
I was sent a good clear typed certificate from the General Register Office Scotland of my mother's second marriage where her surname was given as IMY or GITTINS, Gittins was her married name but her maiden name was GUY not IMY, if she was a distant ancestor I had just discovered would I have sent the certificate back for correction?
I would also add one last point never close research on any person in your tree, 65 odd years of research has taught me that more often than not there is something else that can be found out.
Cheers
Guy
The last point is also very key, because new collections are being catalogued all the time, and new records are becoming available, never say never. We prove the conclusion weighing up all the evidence available at the time, but its always prudent to back again and review your work, that one new document can blow all your previous work out of the water.
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I would not say it was the norm, but in East Anglia, couples often waited till the woman was pregnant to make sure that everything worked.
Regards
Chas
Bridal pregnancy was quite common, I think they may have had a trial marriage, or the pregnancy sealed their fate as a couple and they wanted to make sure it happened before the patter of tiny feet. Not unusual for a birth to take place just 2 or 3 months after the wedding.
100% certainty is impossible in genealogy, you always have to allow room for a very small element of doubt, and just trust that what you have found is true. No point always wondering "Was he the biological father?" when there is nothing to say he wasn't, or "Was she the birth mother?" you will just ruin your hobby if you want total 100% certainty.
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Chiddicks your blogs are wonderfully clear with wise words of advice
To anyone who believes that only dna from the people concerned for paternal identification may I.disabuse you
If you have a wide tree and your great grandparents birth father is questionable ...you.have to look at siblings of the named father and see if your DNA matches any of their descendants
I have cases on my scottish side where birth fathers are either named or the child is given their surname as a middle name
Small distant DNA matches do.indeed show a common location.& common. ancestor to two. men named
On.her childrens birth .marriage or death records
And there are no DNA.matches to.the man who the grear great great grandmother later married .
(She had 3 children ...first one without named father and he never had children )
The same on.my.maternal side the man named by my great grandmother in.paternity case was indeed the birth father as I.match the great grandchildren of his sister and half sister .
It seems to.be quite common in my family not to bother with marriage and some of us never "pretended" to be married .
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Thank you brigidmac for the compliments, much appreciated.
You also raise some good points concerning DNA and the things to look at when you have a mystery DNA match. I had something similar on my own tree, so you do have to tread carefully.