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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tipperary => Topic started by: geraldine77 on Sunday 17 April 16 04:41 BST (UK)
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I am descended from the Hart family in Roscrae. Sarah Hutchinson married John Hart and had a son John born after his father died. Sarah married an older man called John Alrahan or Abraham. Sarah's son changed his name to Luke as his stepfather already had a John. I believe that SArah came from the Hutchinson family of Timoney Park, Roscrae but really can't be sure. Luke emigrated to Australia in 1851 and later married in Melbourne and came to KAikoura NZ in 1860. an anyone give me any further information?
Marie Woods
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Hi Marie
There are two descendants of Luke Abraham and Anne Giles in New Zealand in separate branches I've had contact with.
I gather there has been a lot of research done on their family, and some on Hart's and Abraham's. I'm not sure how far they have been able to get beyond late 1700's.
Do you know that Anne left memoirs?
I have Giles ancestry from Roscrea but not that particular branch.
May be PM me and I can put in you in contact to see what hey have.
rgds
Neil
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Hi, this is Luke leaving for Australia
ABRAHAM Luke 1851 25 Trinoolie ?? John / sarah Mother at Trinoolie None . R.C. Ship = Garland
Nenagh, Nenagh is the County town of County Tipperary. That was from last year.
Tipperary the county was split into 2 ridings North and South.
Nenagh became the County town of North Tipp and Clonmel was the County town to South Tipp.
There were also courts in each town plus the prisons.
Richard Falkner or Falkiner however you would spell it, was one of the big wigs at trials, he lived outside Nenagh in a house called MOUNT FALCON just over halfway between Nengah and Borrisokane. I know it well, I used to have tea there when I was little, the house was bought by the Hogan family in the 1920’s.
Maggsie
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Townland of Tooloone perhaps...maybe too close to Clonmel!
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Hi Maggsie, I checked out the bit on Luke and was able to get the passenger lists for the Garland and the account of the trip -thankyou. He was Cof E on that document and was not Roman Catholic. I wondered where Trinoolie was. Your help with the parishes was great and I have written to the parish church of St Cronans to see if they can research any further for us. An Abraham is remembered on the Memorial to the FAllen WW1 in the churchyard so I am hoping to get in touch with some of that family.
We wondered if Luke was connected with the police force before he came out from something we have read. As far as we know he was not in trouble with the law, but they certainly left Australia in a hurry due to an unfortunate incident on the goldfield. I loved my trip to beautiful Ireland many years ago but knew nothing about this family at the time. Thankyoufor your interest, Geraldine77
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Thankyou Sinnane, I was surprised about the "Trinoolie," as we think that Luke came from Roscrae -he was later married in Melbourne to Anne Giles from Corbally and they were friends in Ireland
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THankyou Neil, I was born in Kaikoura and the Abrahams are my gt.gtgt. grandparents. We have the memoirs of Ann, but it is a bit contradictory about their past lives and this has made finding out about Luke quite slow. We are making some headway with the Giles and the Lawsons and the Kaikoura museum is a wonderful resource. Geraldine.
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This Anne Giles
I did this for someone a few months ago.
Her Birth record is below and also the ship record.
It seems she was an only child.
Maggsie
Name: Anne Giles Date of Birth:
Date of Baptism: 03-Apr-1828
Address: Corbally Parish/District: ROSCREA
Gender: Female County Co. Tipperary
Denomination: Church Of Ireland
Father: Not Recorded Giles Mother: Mary Nicholson
Occupation:
Sponsor 1 /
Informant 1: Not Recorded Sponsor 2 /
Informant 2: Not Recorded
Notes:
** FATHERS FIRST NAME LOOKS LIKE 'ALICE' - SEE ORIGINAL REGISTER
REV. JOHN HAMILTON [RECTOR]
GILES Ann 1852 24 (tipp) Allen / Mary living in Tipp. None . C of E . Ship = Rajahgopaul
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Hi
A few pieces I have.
Luke and Anne departed Melbourne on the Clipper-schooner "Mimmie Dike" (around 90tons) on 19 December 1856 for Wellington soon after they were married. A free passage was on offer for "respectable agricultural labourers". Anne's half sister Susan was a witness to the marriage.
May be they decided to get married for the free passage? Don't know.
Luke and Anne knew each other at school but had met again in Australia.
Anne Giles arrived Morton Bay, Brisbane as an Assisted Immigrant on the "Rajahgopaul", and probably met up with Susan and her husband Charles Willoughby who had arrived in 1841 on the "Runymede".
Luke was Roman Catholic but their children brought up as CofE.
They spent a couple of years at Cheviot Hills of a Mr Robinson.
Luke's mother Sarah Hutchinson/Hart/Abraham is listed as "Sarah Alrahan" in Griffiths for townland of Tinderry amongst the Hart's and Hutchinson's. The nearby townland of The Sheeys is where I think Anne's father Allen Giles was - spelled as Jiles. Griffiths for Tipperary, I think was completed June 1853.
There is 1880 death of Sarah Abraham aged 90 registered Dongahmore, Co. Laois, which is only a few km from Roscrea.
Quite a few Hart and Hutchinson's, but as not my family line I've not done more about them.
rgds
Neil
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Thankyou Neil -Luke was C of E on the passenger list for the Garland and I think the other list was wrong. They were married at St James in M. We have a story about the reason for them leaving Melbourne which is a bit different and comes from the Palmer Diary could I send it to you by e-mail? I didn't know about the Mimmie Dike passage being free but thought that they paid and were making a quick get-a-way after a fracas on the Bendigo goldfield.
I am interested in the info about Sarah- we had almost decided that Alrahan was not a factor and gave up searching it. I have never heard of the Griffith Valuation -this will tell you what an amateur I am!But Maggsie found Anne's baptismal details which proved her birth date for us and she must have really been 100 and eight days as claimed. I can give you my e-mail if you are interested in the reason for coming to NZ.
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Hi All,
Trinoolie is Timoney.
I had a look back through my info. after I saw the message with Timoney Park.
I did a have a photo of the house. I must have deleted it, sorry.
If you go on your search engine and put Timoney Tipperary, it shows the area on the M7 (in blue) just South of Roscrea.
Maggsie
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THanks Maggsie -Someone else has suggested Tinderry from Griffiths Valuation I think. I have e-mailed the church at Roscrae to see if they do searches of records or can put me in touch with any Abrahams. I, m still not convinced about the Timoney Park link! Not that it matters a lot but we will keep trying
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Hi
I am descended from the Hart family from Roscrea Tipperary.
John Hart & Mary Evans (mentioned by Maggsie) are my GGG/Grandparents.
their daughter Priscilla, who married John McIlmun, is my GG/Grandmother, they emigrated to Australia in 1844.
Ciara :)
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A long time since I started this but there is a family legend that Luke's mother, Sarah Hart was pregnant to a Hutchinson who lived next door. She then married a widower John Abraham and Luke originally John I think became Luke as Abraham already had a son called John. It seems an unlikely story but we can't prove it anyway now! I wonder if it was covering up for the Abraham surname with its jewish origins. I have just noticed he was Rc, not Cof E in the passenger list. If I ever come into money, I'll spend some of it getting a professional to sort it out -for now how much does it really matter! By the wayI forgot to thank Maggsie for solving the Tinoolie mystery. geraldine77
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Hi All,
After this popped up this morning I went back to searching...…
These Hart people listed...… check the names, looks like their brother William followed the girls to Australia.
HART Catherine 1865 inft Emly William / Julia Mother on board , father a victualler in Sydney . Ship = General Caulfield
HART Ellen 1863 18 Emly William / Winifred - at Emly . Paid for by sister = Mary Ha rt , Brougham St , Sydney . Ship = Fairlie
HART Julia 1865 24 Emly James / Catherine FLEMING , F in Cork.Husband=William Hart , a victualler of Sydney . Ship = General Caulfield
HART Margaret 1859 20 Emly William / Winifred - at Emly Uncle = Kennedy O'BRIEN, at Redfern . Ship = Nimroud
HART William 1864 22 Emly William / Winifred - at Emly . Sisters = Margaret , Mary & Ellen Hart in Sydney .Pd-Mary. Ship = Wanata
Looking at the trade that the above William had......Victualler, I searched for a death of a William Hart and found this...… he was 94 when he died in Emly and he was a Butcher.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1886/06232/4783935.pdf
An Amy Holway (the Grandaughter, present at the death)
Winnifred, the Mother died in 1869, the record image isn't listed but you can get it.
Name WENIFRED HART
Date of Death 1869
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Tipperary
Deceased Age at Death 59
Returns Year 1869
Returns Quarter 2
Returns Volume No 8
Returns Page No 523
The infant Catherine in the ship list, her birth record
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1864/03595/2325639.pdf
This is the site that I got the info from.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
Church records for Catholics use this site...…….
https://registers.nli.ie/
This is William's Baptism, his Mother was Winnifred Brown, 2nd one down.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632709#page/26/mode/1up
Hope the above is a help.
Maggsie
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Hello Chatters
Reawakened by the thread of today !!
Just want to ask if our 2 families are connected in some way or have l missed the connection.
Cheers
Jamison
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Hi,
This maybe him...…...right hand page 9th line down.
James Hart of Daniel (Danl) Hart and Sally Elin 11th July 1828 Thurles.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632768#page/69/mode/1up
Not saying it is him but that is what I found.
Maggsie
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Hi
Just a bit confused - as the thread mixes two Hart families - my original post and another.
I don’t see how one is connected to the other.
Cheers
Jamison
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Thanks to everyone who has helped me sort out Luke Abraham and combine our family story with the facts. I now am certain that Sarah Hutchison married Edward Hart who died after his son Edward was born, Sarah then married a much older man, John Abraham, Jewish? and Edward Her son became Luke Abraham, as John had a son called Edward. Griffiths Valuation of 1847? and 1853 lists Sarah as Alrahan then as Abraham , both times renting a house from Thomas Hart Esquire in Tinderry. Luke named his own sons Edward and John, Children not brought up as Catholic.
Luke and his wife Ann Giles left from Wellington a few days after their marriage taking a free passage on Mimi Dike, rushing down to the wharf when Luke took to his heels after a violent fight over a gold nugget he found on the Jim Crow Goldfield. They eventually settled on a very isolated farm in Kaikoura and cut off all contact with family. Luke was a police assistant on the field and we think he was in the Irish Constabulary in Ireland -he called it "The Force" and said that he was present when "Teddy" Wakefield was arrested after one of his elopements but dates certainly don't fit and he would have been in serving in England. Anyway thanks again - Maggsie I have heard mention of a Hart relation who came over here but it would be impossible to find them now.
Geraldine.
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All the best with your Hart family research
Jamison
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Thanks to everyone who has helped me sort out Luke Abraham and combine our family story with the facts. I now am certain that Sarah Hutchison married Edward Hart who died after his son Edward was born, Sarah then married a much older man, John Abraham, Jewish? and Edward Her son became Luke Abraham, as John had a son called Edward. Griffiths Valuation of 1847? and 1853 lists Sarah as Alrahan then as Abraham , both times renting a house from Thomas Hart Esquire in Tinderry. Luke named his own sons Edward and John, Children not brought up as Catholic.
Luke and his wife Ann Giles left from Wellington a few days after their marriage taking a free passage on Mimi Dike, rushing down to the wharf when Luke took to his heels after a violent fight over a gold nugget he found on the Jim Crow Goldfield. They eventually settled on a very isolated farm in Kaikoura and cut off all contact with family. Luke was a police assistant on the field and we think he was in the Irish Constabulary in Ireland -he called it "The Force" and said that he was present when "Teddy" Wakefield was arrested after one of his elopements but dates certainly don't fit and he would have been in serving in England. Anyway thanks again - Maggsie I have heard mention of a Hart relation who came over here but it would be impossible to find them now.
Geraldine.
Not too many Jewish Abraham families on 1901 Census! http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o9v/
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Hi
Just a bit confused - as the thread mixes two Hart families - my original post and another.
I don’t see how one is connected to the other.
Cheers
Jamison
I was wondering that myself... looks like it has been hijacked by someone else looking for someone with same Surname!
Maybe simpler to just try starting a new thread for your Harts??
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None were a match -interesting that I found no practising Jews -Alrahan or Abraham doesn't appear to signify Jewish heritage -Thanks for the Census info, found a Mary Hart, servant, Roman Catholic but no connection.
Geraldine.
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Hi
Yes, it looks like it has been but as for starting another thread for mine might cause problems for having too many of the same.
Past experiences have proven so...
Cheers
Jamison