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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tipperary => Topic started by: geraldine77 on Sunday 17 April 16 04:41 BST (UK)

Title: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: geraldine77 on Sunday 17 April 16 04:41 BST (UK)
I am descended from the Hart family in Roscrae. Sarah Hutchinson married John Hart and had a son John born after his father died. Sarah married an older man called John Alrahan or Abraham. Sarah's son changed his name to Luke as his stepfather already had a John. I believe that SArah came from the Hutchinson family of Timoney Park, Roscrae but really can't be sure. Luke emigrated to Australia in 1851 and later married in Melbourne and came to KAikoura NZ in 1860. an anyone give me any further information?

Marie Woods
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: neilgen1 on Saturday 21 May 16 06:51 BST (UK)
Hi Marie

There are two descendants of Luke Abraham and Anne Giles in New Zealand in separate branches I've had contact with.
I gather there has been a lot of research done on their family, and some on Hart's and Abraham's. I'm not sure how far they have been able to get beyond late 1700's.
Do you know that Anne left memoirs?
I have Giles ancestry from Roscrea but not that particular branch.
May be PM me and I can put in you in contact to see what hey have.

rgds
Neil

Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: Maggsie on Saturday 21 May 16 13:38 BST (UK)
Hi, this is Luke leaving for Australia

ABRAHAM   Luke      1851   25   Trinoolie ??   John / sarah   Mother at Trinoolie   None .  R.C.   Ship =   Garland

Nenagh, Nenagh is the County town of County Tipperary. That was from last year.
Tipperary the county was split into 2 ridings North and South.
Nenagh became the County town of North Tipp and Clonmel was the County town to South Tipp.
There were also courts in each town plus the prisons.
Richard Falkner or Falkiner however you would spell it, was one of the big wigs at trials, he lived outside Nenagh in a house called MOUNT FALCON just over halfway between Nengah and Borrisokane.  I know it well, I used to have tea there when I was little, the house was bought by the Hogan family in the 1920’s.
Maggsie
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: Sinann on Saturday 21 May 16 15:11 BST (UK)
Townland of  Tooloone perhaps...maybe too close to Clonmel!
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: geraldine77 on Sunday 22 May 16 08:56 BST (UK)
Hi Maggsie, I checked out the bit on Luke and was able to get the  passenger lists for the Garland and the account of the trip -thankyou. He was Cof E on that document and was not Roman Catholic.  I wondered where Trinoolie was. Your help with the parishes was great and I have written to the parish church of St Cronans to see if they can research any further for us. An Abraham is remembered on the Memorial to the FAllen WW1 in the churchyard so I am hoping to get in touch with some of that family.
We wondered if Luke was connected with the police force before he came out from something we have read. As far as we know he was not in trouble with the law, but they certainly left Australia in a hurry due to an unfortunate incident on the goldfield. I loved my trip to beautiful Ireland many years ago but knew nothing about this family at the time. Thankyoufor your interest, Geraldine77
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: geraldine77 on Sunday 22 May 16 08:59 BST (UK)
Thankyou Sinnane, I was surprised about the "Trinoolie," as we think that Luke came from Roscrae -he was later married in Melbourne to Anne Giles from Corbally and they were friends in Ireland
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: geraldine77 on Sunday 22 May 16 09:05 BST (UK)
THankyou  Neil, I was born in Kaikoura and the Abrahams are my gt.gtgt. grandparents. We have the memoirs of Ann, but it is a bit contradictory about their past lives and this has made finding out about Luke quite slow.  We are making some headway with the Giles and the Lawsons and the Kaikoura museum is a wonderful resource. Geraldine.
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: Maggsie on Sunday 22 May 16 09:55 BST (UK)
This Anne Giles
I did this for someone a few months ago.
Her Birth record is below and also the ship record.
It seems she was an only child.

Maggsie


Name: Anne Giles Date of Birth: 
    Date of Baptism: 03-Apr-1828
Address: Corbally Parish/District: ROSCREA
Gender:  Female County Co. Tipperary
  Denomination: Church Of Ireland
 
Father: Not Recorded Giles Mother: Mary Nicholson
Occupation:   
 
Sponsor 1 /
Informant 1: Not Recorded Sponsor 2 /
Informant 2: Not Recorded
 
 Notes:
 ** FATHERS FIRST NAME LOOKS  LIKE 'ALICE' - SEE ORIGINAL REGISTER
REV. JOHN HAMILTON [RECTOR]
 
GILES   Ann      1852   24   (tipp)   Allen / Mary   living in Tipp.   None .  C of E .   Ship =   Rajahgopaul
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: neilgen1 on Sunday 22 May 16 23:53 BST (UK)
Hi

A few pieces I have.
Luke and Anne departed Melbourne on the Clipper-schooner "Mimmie Dike" (around 90tons) on 19 December 1856 for Wellington soon after they were married.  A free passage was on offer for "respectable agricultural labourers". Anne's half sister Susan was a witness to the marriage.
May be they decided to get married for the free passage? Don't know.

Luke and Anne knew each other at school but had met again in Australia.

Anne Giles arrived Morton Bay, Brisbane as an Assisted Immigrant on the "Rajahgopaul", and probably met up with Susan and her husband Charles Willoughby who had arrived in 1841 on the "Runymede".

Luke was Roman Catholic but their children brought up as CofE.

They spent a couple of years at Cheviot Hills of a Mr Robinson.

Luke's mother Sarah Hutchinson/Hart/Abraham is listed as "Sarah Alrahan" in Griffiths for townland of Tinderry amongst the Hart's and Hutchinson's. The nearby townland of The Sheeys is where I think Anne's father Allen Giles was - spelled as Jiles. Griffiths for Tipperary, I think was completed June 1853.
There is 1880 death of Sarah Abraham aged 90 registered Dongahmore, Co. Laois, which is only a few km from Roscrea.

Quite a few Hart and Hutchinson's, but as not my family line I've not done more about them.

rgds
Neil
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: geraldine77 on Monday 23 May 16 08:29 BST (UK)
Thankyou Neil -Luke was C of E on the passenger list for the Garland and I think the other list was wrong. They were married at St James in M. We have a story about the reason for them leaving Melbourne which is a bit different and comes from  the Palmer Diary could I send it to you by e-mail? I didn't know about the Mimmie Dike passage being free but thought that they paid  and were making a quick get-a-way after a fracas on the Bendigo goldfield.
I am interested in the info about Sarah- we had almost decided that Alrahan was not a factor and gave up searching it. I have never heard of the Griffith Valuation -this will tell you what an amateur I am!But Maggsie found Anne's baptismal details which proved her birth date for us and she must have really been 100 and eight days as claimed. I can give you my e-mail if you are interested in the reason for coming to NZ.
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: Maggsie on Monday 23 May 16 09:33 BST (UK)
Hi All,
Trinoolie is Timoney.
I had a look back through my info. after I saw the message with Timoney Park.
I did a have a photo of the house. I must have deleted it, sorry.
If you go on your search engine and put Timoney Tipperary, it shows the area on the M7 (in blue) just South of Roscrea.
Maggsie
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: geraldine77 on Tuesday 24 May 16 06:26 BST (UK)
THanks Maggsie -Someone else  has suggested Tinderry from Griffiths Valuation I think. I have e-mailed the church at Roscrae to see if they do searches of records or can put me in touch with any Abrahams. I, m still not convinced about the Timoney Park link! Not that it matters a lot but we will keep trying
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: Kensi on Tuesday 21 February 17 07:17 GMT (UK)
Hi
I am descended from the Hart family from Roscrea Tipperary.
John Hart & Mary Evans (mentioned by Maggsie) are my GGG/Grandparents.
their daughter Priscilla, who married John McIlmun, is my GG/Grandmother, they emigrated to Australia in 1844.
Ciara :)
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: maria101 on Sunday 25 August 19 06:17 BST (UK)
A long time since I started this but there is a family legend that Luke's mother, Sarah Hart was pregnant to a Hutchinson who lived next door. She then married a widower John Abraham and Luke originally John I think became Luke as Abraham already had a son called John. It seems an unlikely story but we can't prove it anyway now! I wonder if it was covering up for the Abraham surname with its jewish origins. I have just noticed he was Rc, not Cof E in the passenger list. If I ever come into money, I'll spend some of it getting a professional to sort it out -for now how much does it really matter!  By the wayI forgot to thank Maggsie for solving the Tinoolie mystery. geraldine77
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: Maggsie on Sunday 25 August 19 09:58 BST (UK)
Hi All,
After this popped up this morning I went back to searching...…
These Hart people listed...… check the names, looks like their brother William followed the girls to Australia.


HART   Catherine      1865   inft   Emly   William / Julia   Mother on board , father a   victualler in Sydney .   Ship =   General Caulfield
HART   Ellen      1863   18   Emly   William / Winifred - at Emly .   Paid for by sister = Mary Ha   rt , Brougham St , Sydney .   Ship =   Fairlie
HART   Julia      1865   24   Emly   James / Catherine FLEMING ,   F in Cork.Husband=William   Hart , a victualler of Sydney .   Ship =   General Caulfield
HART   Margaret      1859   20   Emly   William / Winifred - at Emly   Uncle = Kennedy O'BRIEN,   at Redfern .   Ship =   Nimroud
HART   William      1864   22   Emly   William / Winifred - at Emly .   Sisters = Margaret , Mary &   Ellen Hart in Sydney .Pd-Mary.   Ship =   Wanata

Looking at the trade that the above William had......Victualler, I searched for a death of a William Hart and found this...… he was 94 when he died in Emly and he was a Butcher.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1886/06232/4783935.pdf
An Amy Holway  (the Grandaughter, present at the death)

Winnifred, the Mother died in 1869, the record image isn't listed but you can get it.

Name  WENIFRED HART
Date of Death  1869
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Tipperary
Deceased Age at Death 59
Returns Year  1869
Returns Quarter 2
Returns Volume No 8
Returns Page No 523

The infant Catherine in the ship list, her birth record
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1864/03595/2325639.pdf

This is the site that I got the info from.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/

Church records for Catholics use this site...…….
https://registers.nli.ie/
This is William's Baptism, his Mother was Winnifred Brown, 2nd one down.

https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632709#page/26/mode/1up

Hope the above is a help.
Maggsie
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: jamison on Sunday 25 August 19 15:12 BST (UK)
Hello Chatters

Reawakened by the thread of today !!

Just want to ask if our 2 families are connected in some way or have l missed the connection.

Cheers

Jamison

Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: Maggsie on Sunday 25 August 19 16:33 BST (UK)
Hi,
This maybe him...…...right hand page 9th line down.
James Hart of Daniel (Danl) Hart and Sally Elin   11th July 1828 Thurles.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632768#page/69/mode/1up

Not saying it is him but that is what I found.
Maggsie
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: jamison on Sunday 25 August 19 22:21 BST (UK)
Hi
Just a bit confused - as the thread mixes two Hart families - my original post and another.
I don’t see how one is connected to the other.
Cheers
Jamison
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: maria101 on Tuesday 27 August 19 05:45 BST (UK)
Thanks to everyone who has helped me sort out Luke Abraham and combine our family story with the facts. I now am certain that Sarah Hutchison married Edward Hart who died after his son Edward was born, Sarah then married a much older man, John Abraham, Jewish? and Edward Her son became Luke Abraham, as John had a son called Edward. Griffiths Valuation of 1847? and 1853 lists Sarah as Alrahan then as Abraham , both times renting a house from Thomas Hart Esquire in Tinderry. Luke named  his own sons Edward and John, Children not brought up as Catholic.
Luke and his wife Ann Giles left from Wellington a few days after their marriage taking a free passage on Mimi Dike, rushing down to the wharf when Luke took to his heels after a violent fight over a gold nugget  he found on the Jim Crow Goldfield. They eventually settled  on a very isolated farm in Kaikoura and cut off all contact with  family.  Luke was a police assistant on the field and we think he was in the Irish Constabulary in Ireland -he called it "The Force" and said that he was present when "Teddy" Wakefield was arrested after one of his elopements but  dates certainly don't fit and he would have been in serving in England.  Anyway thanks again - Maggsie I have heard mention of a Hart relation who came over here but it would be impossible to find them now.
Geraldine.
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: jamison on Wednesday 28 August 19 21:18 BST (UK)

All the best with your Hart family research

Jamison
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: hallmark on Wednesday 28 August 19 21:56 BST (UK)
Thanks to everyone who has helped me sort out Luke Abraham and combine our family story with the facts. I now am certain that Sarah Hutchison married Edward Hart who died after his son Edward was born, Sarah then married a much older man, John Abraham, Jewish? and Edward Her son became Luke Abraham, as John had a son called Edward. Griffiths Valuation of 1847? and 1853 lists Sarah as Alrahan then as Abraham , both times renting a house from Thomas Hart Esquire in Tinderry. Luke named  his own sons Edward and John, Children not brought up as Catholic.
Luke and his wife Ann Giles left from Wellington a few days after their marriage taking a free passage on Mimi Dike, rushing down to the wharf when Luke took to his heels after a violent fight over a gold nugget  he found on the Jim Crow Goldfield. They eventually settled  on a very isolated farm in Kaikoura and cut off all contact with  family.  Luke was a police assistant on the field and we think he was in the Irish Constabulary in Ireland -he called it "The Force" and said that he was present when "Teddy" Wakefield was arrested after one of his elopements but  dates certainly don't fit and he would have been in serving in England.  Anyway thanks again - Maggsie I have heard mention of a Hart relation who came over here but it would be impossible to find them now.
Geraldine.


Not too many Jewish Abraham families on 1901 Census!  http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o9v/

Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: hallmark on Wednesday 28 August 19 22:12 BST (UK)
Hi
Just a bit confused - as the thread mixes two Hart families - my original post and another.
I don’t see how one is connected to the other.
Cheers
Jamison


I was wondering that myself... looks like it has been hijacked by someone else looking for someone with same Surname!

Maybe simpler to just try starting a new thread for your Harts??

Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: maria101 on Thursday 29 August 19 06:34 BST (UK)
None were a match -interesting that I found no practising Jews -Alrahan or Abraham doesn't appear to signify Jewish heritage -Thanks for the  Census info, found a Mary Hart, servant, Roman Catholic but no connection.
Geraldine.
Title: Re: Re: Hart family of Tipperary
Post by: jamison on Thursday 29 August 19 20:06 BST (UK)
Hi
Yes, it looks like it has been but as for starting another thread for mine might cause problems for having too many of the same.
Past experiences have proven so...
Cheers
Jamison