RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Danuella on Monday 18 January 21 20:33 GMT (UK)
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Hi
My paternal Grandmother is Flemish, her name was Ludovica Van de poel, she was born in Herentals(along with her siblings) beginning in the mid 1920s.her parents were Frans Van de poel and Magdalena Smit, I can find no birth or marriage for either frans or Magdalena.
Frans's parents were Josef/Josephus Van de poel and Antoinette/antoina Broekaert(I have found Antoinette birth record in schellebelle).
I have managed to glean some information from the Belgian archives, which has been incredibly hard as I sadly don't speak Dutch.
18/09/1909 I have found a death record(I presume) for 1 of their daughters Maria sidonia Van de poel, she was 1 year, 3 months and 4 days old, and it says she was born in Farciennes, but the death was Herentals
Alos on 18/09/1909 in Herentals they register another child's birth, Rosalia Ludovica Van de poel(I was very excited to find this record as I have a picture of Rosalia as a child but no one knew who she was!)
I have also found another daughters death.. Margeretha August Van de poel born Herentals died aged 1 year, 3 months 26 days on 6/7/1914 in Herentals( I found her birth
10/3/1913 in Herentals)
I also found Michael Van de poel born 10/9/1914 in Herentals.
All children of Josef and Antoinette.
Would anyone be able to help me find marriage records for Frans and Magdalena, and marriage records for Josef and Antoinette and also birth records for Frans and Josef.
We always thought the family came from Herentals but it seems not, I have not been successful in finding records for Farciennes.
Any help would be very very much appreciated,i was close to my grandmother.
Many thanks
Danni
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I'm just checking the details of the birth record you found in 1909 now.
Details to follow.
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So:
birth registered on 20th September 1909 at 3pm by Josephus Van de Poel, occupation "Handwerker" (some kind of craftsman) aged 28 born in Oevel and living in Herentals who declared that a female child had been born on the 18th September at 7.30pm to him and his wife Antonia Broekaert aged 25 born in Schellebelle to which they had given the first names Rosalia Ludovica.
The registration was witnessed by:
Ludovicus Van de Poel factory worker aged 32
Frans Heugels (I think) innkeeper aged 39
both living in Herentals
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There's the registration of a birth in Oevel in July 1880, Josephus Van de Poel. I'll look into that later, but first I'll try to find his marriage to Antonia Broekaert.
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Oh my days!!!! I am super excited to see this!! Just looking on the map and oevel isn't far from herentals at all is it! Ludoviucs... Ohhh I wonder if he's related as not only does roslaie have the name Ludovica as a middle name that was my grandmother's name too! Oh wow, I can't tell you how excited I am lol.
Thankyou so very much for this. Would you be able to tell me what website you are using to find these records please?
Honetsly, I can't thank you enough! I have spent so many hours trying to find them all and just got no where, well till yesterday when I came across the Belgian website.
Danni
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I'm using the national archives website.
My paternal grandmother was also Flemish so I've used the website a lot and luckily my Dutch is ok.
I'll do some more digging. Very happy to help you.
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Oh wow! I've never actually known another person with Flemish relatives, so nice to meet you :D Nanna refused to teach any of us Flemish, not sure why, but I think she was very aware of being a "foreigner" back in those days and sadly she got alzheimers before I was of an age to ask any real questions. My grandad told me all he knew many years ago before he died, but Nanna wasn't very forthcoming about her history. When both my grandparents died I got all their old photographs so have lots of photos of people whom I have no idea who they are sadly. I really need to learn Dutch at some point.
Thankyou once again, I can't tell you how happy I am to see this.
Danni
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My grandmother didn't teach us any of her first language either. But I was determined to learn as much as possible so I'm actually the only of her grandchildren who can speak any Dutch.
I had a look again at the 1909 death registration you mentioned, which confirms that Ludovicus Van de Poel is the brother of Josephus Van de Poel.
I can't find a marriage registration for Josephus Van de Poel and Antonia Broekaert in either Oevel, Herentals or Schellebelle.
Unfortunately it seems the records for Farciennes on the National Archives website only goes up to 1900. I think perhaps Josephus and Antonia Broekaert may have married in Farciennes and even that Frans was born there?
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That's pretty awesome have to admit :)
Brilliant, thankyou so much.
Oh that's a shame, but that would make perfect sense wouldn't it. I have a death year (provided by my cousin) of 1984 for Frans. Apart from what you have given me tonight I have no other knowledge at all of Josephus. Thankyou so much for all this. I didn't realise it was actually the national archives I was looking at too, but not being able to read anything that was on the page made it horrendous to try and navigate(obviously lol)
Are you happy to search for josephus's birth record for me please?
Thanks
Danni
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Yeah, I'm just having a look at the registration of a birth in 1880 for a Josephus Van de Poel, but I can't be 100% sure it's the right person without having a look at the details in the marriage registration for Josephus Van de Poel and Antonia Broekaert. The same goes for the birth registration you found for Antonia/Antoinette, which is 99% probability the right person..but again we can't be 100% sure.
Maybe when more records are released onto the website and we have Farciennes 1901-1910 you'll have the definite proof you need.
I'm going to head to bed now, but will post the information from the 1880 Josephus Van de Poel birth registration in Oevel tomorrow if that's ok.
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Ahh, now I've got little "death cards" I think you'd call them amongst all the photos from Nan, and that's how I found Antoinettes birth record, because I had the death card for her mum. Sadly I don't have anything at all for Josephus.
Do you have any idea when those records will be being released at all?
Of course that's absolutely fine, yes please if you don't mind?
Thanks so much again
Danni
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Ah yes, I know those cards.
Do you need me to look up the details for Antonia/Antoinette's birth registration? Or have you already done that? I have her birth as 10th May 1884 in Schellebelle, is that the correct one?
I'll post the Josephus Van de Poel record tomorrow too.
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Morning, yes it is the right one. Thankyou but I have all her details. Would you be able to tell me how to bring up the records with all the details please? When I go on BE archives I can search and find the records, but it just gives me the basics, not the fantastic information you've found lol x
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So I think at the moment you're using the search function on the people tab, but actually you need to scroll down the homepage and click on Overview of civil status registers. Then you'll see the different provinces and municipalities and you can view the actual registers. I hope that makes sense.
In the meantime, here's the info I promised:
Registration date: 19th July 1880 3pm in Oevel
Father: Adrianus Franciscus Van de Poel, farmer, aged 45, born in Olen, living in Oevel
Mother: Maria Rosalia Verhaegen, aged 35, born in Oevel,
Child: male, born 19th July 1880 5am, name: Josephus
Witnesses: Ludovicus Josephus Van de Sande, police constable, aged 35
and Joannes Livinus Laers, farmer, aged 42, both residents of Oevel
Signed by: the father and the two witnesses
Here's the link:
https://search.arch.be/nl/zoeken-naar-archieven/zoekresultaat/inventaris/rabscan/eadid/BE-A0511_112303_110914_DUT/inventarisnr/IRS000115206353/level/file/scans-inventarispagina/23/scan-index/441/foto/511_9999_999_1139904_000_0_0441
but you have to look on page 615 of the link.
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https://search.arch.be/nl/zoeken-naar-archieven/zoekresultaat/inventaris/rabscan/eadid/BE-A0511_112303_110914_DUT/inventarisnr/IRS000115206353/level/file/scan-index/360/foto/511_9999_999_1139904_000_0_0360 ... on page 449
... the marriage of Adrianus Franciscus Van de Poel and Maria Rosalia Verhaegen ...
Date: 10th July 1874 in Oevel
Groom: Adrianus Franciscus Van de Poel, farmer living in Oevel, born in Olen on the 1st November 1834, legal, unmarried and full age son of Joannes Franciscus Josephus Van de Poel (who died in Oevel on the 18th March 1838 and who was the son of Joannes Baptisa Van de Poel and Theresia Hasendonckx) and Maria Anna Hoes, farmer living in Oevel, present and consenting.
Bride: Maria Rosalia Verhaegen, farmer living and born in Oevel, born on the 23rd November 1846, legal and unmarried daughter of Antonius Franciscus Verhaegen (who died in Oevel on the 1st March 1865 and was the son on Henricus Verhaegen and Maria Elisabeth Bastiaens, both deceased) and Maria Anna Van Outsel, farmer living in Oevel, present and contesting.
Witnesses: Franciscus Verherstraeten, farmer, aged 44
Franciscus Ludovicus Timmermans, joiner, aged 26
Carolus Brumeyers, farrier, aged 49
and Josephus T' Syen (not sure about the surname), municipal secretary, aged 45
all four living in Oevel and not family members of the couple
Signatures: all the witnesses, the bride and her mother signed, the groom and his mother can't write.
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Do you have the marriage information for Antonia/Antoinette Broeckaert's parents?
I also remembered that many Belgian records are also viewable on Familysearch.com by the way.
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Oh wow! Am floored! You ahve saved me hours of trying to trawl through and interpret the records lol. And yes you are right, I was just doing a people search lol.
This is all so incredible, I can't believe you have discovered all this for me, I am so grateful, thankyou so so much.
No I couldn't find the marriage record of Antoinettes parents.
I've used them before and never managed to find any of my family sadly, well not the Flemish side.
Danni
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My pleasure. I'm happy to help you go even further back if you wish.
Here's the information from Antonia's parents' marriage:
Date/location: 18th February 1874, Schellebelle
Groom: Fredericus Broeckaert, weaver, aged 41, born in Schellebelle on the 18th October 1832, living in Schellebelle, of full age, son of Petrus Broeckaert (who died in Schellebelle on the 13th September 1851) and Francisca Van Heddegem (who also died in Schellebelle on the 20th October 1870
Bride: Maria Micom, occupation "bloemwerkster" (I think some kind of needlework), aged 18, born in Wichelen on the 24th June 1855, legally resident in Serlaere (unsure of place name), now living in Schellebelle, formerly living in ? (can't make out the place name), under age daughter of Joannes Baptista Micom (who died in Wichelen on the 19th July 1864) and Eugenia van Boven (who also died in Wichelen on the 14th January 1871)
I found the handwriting difficult to read, so not 100% sure of all of the information. Haven't added the information about witnesses because my eyes were going a bit funny haha
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Yes!!! Yes please, I would very very much appreciate that if it wouldn't put you to too much trouble?
This side has been my stumbling block for absolutely years. It's so fascinating the information they put on the marriage/birth records, ie time of birth etc, really fascinating.
What do they mean by "under age daughter" do you know at all??
I am so grateful for you help
X
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under age just means under 21, I think.
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I'll do a bit more digging and see what I can find you ;D ;D ;D
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I'll do a bit more digging and see what I can find you ;D ;D ;D
Brilliant!! Thankyou so much
Danni
X
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Thanks to your help I have managed to get further back on almost every branch... Except for Joanne's Baptista van de poel and Theresa hasendonlx.
I did try doing the archives manually but oh my days... Yeh not workable if you don't know the language is it :)
You've done amazing!
Danni
X
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Yes, Belgian records can contain lots of useful information!
If you need help translating stuff, just let me know and I'll take a look at any records you've found. :) :) :)
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Actually there is some if you dont mind?Ive found a netherland website with lots of things concerning Frans's mother in law(Ludovia Roofthooft bn 1887 Herentals,her parents are Petrus Roofthooft and Anna E Maes)Ludovica married Hendrikus Johannes Jacobus Smit 1906 in Rotterdam(There daughter,my gt grandmother was Magdalena smit)Im pretty sure they divorced 1920 in Rotterdam?
Anyway this website has quite a few times Ludovica is mentioned,would you be able to take a look for me please and see if you can find any more information please?
https://www.wiewaswie.nl/en/search/
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Yes, it seems they divorced on 26th July 1920 in Rotterdam. I can't manage to find the original document though.
They married on 29th August 1906 in Rotterdam. Do you have that info?
And had three children born there between 1907-1901.
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Thanks to your help I have managed to get further back on almost every branch... Except for Joanne's Baptista van de poel and Theresa hasendonlx.
I did try doing the archives manually but oh my days... Yeh not workable if you don't know the language is it :)
You've done amazing!
Danni
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According to Johannes Franciscus Josephus Van de Poel's death certificate (died 18 May 1838 in Oevel, registered by his brother-in-law Henricus Hoes) he was born on 16th April 1807 in Westerlo, but I can't find his birth registration. It also says that Johannes Franciscus Josephus Van de Poel was the "onwettigen" son of Joannes Baptista Van de Poel and Theresia Hasendonckx. Onwettig literally means illegal, i.e. his parents weren't married.
According to JFJ Van de Poel's marriage registration (17th April 1834 in Oevel) he was born on 16th April 1807 in Westerlo, which confirms his death record. It gives some details of his military service and the military's agreement to the marriage. Again, JFJ is recorded as the "onwettigen" son of JB Van de Poel and Theresia Hasendonckx, she is a farmer living in Olen and present at the wedding. The last known address of the father was working as a farmer in ? (can't make out the municipality). He left for the French Army in 1806/1807 and his place of death is unknown. Very mysterious.
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Ohhh, I don't have them, yes please if you don't mind sharing them? Also does it give any more info on hendrikus occupation or anything? Wonder why they divorced?
Oh my days that's incredibly fascinating!! So let me get this right JFJ van de poel was illegitimate? (does it say cause of death on death certificate by the way?)
And his father was JB van de poel who enlisted in the French army and was never seen from again??!!
Also what does it say abit JFJ military records?
I am soooooo sorry to out all this on you! But can't thankyou enough for your help xx
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Also why did the military agree to the wedding?would they have needed too??
x
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Also why did the military agree to the wedding?would they have needed too??
x
at that time it was quite common if a man was doing military service to need permission, maybe for the time off for the wedding? haha
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Ohhh, I don't have them, yes please if you don't mind sharing them? Also does it give any more info on hendrikus occupation or anything? Wonder why they divorced?
Oh my days that's incredibly fascinating!! So let me get this right JFJ van de poel was illegitimate? (does it say cause of death on death certificate by the way?)
And his father was JB van de poel who enlisted in the French army and was never seen from again??!!
Also what does it say abit JFJ military records?
I am soooooo sorry to out all this on you! But can't thankyou enough for your help xx
I'll check the Rotterdam records again tomorrow.
It seems that JB Van de Poel left when she was pregnant or had a small child and never returned. Perhaps they planned to get married, who knows?
I'll look again if there's a cause of death but often there isn't.
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Date/location: 29th August 1906, Rotterdam
Groom: Hendrikus Johannes Jacobus Smit, aged 27, dock labourer, born in Brielle, living in Rotterdam, "meerderjarige" (full age = above 21) son of Johannes Smit, dock worker and Magdalena Jakoba Poldervaart, no occupation, both living in Rotterdam
Bride: Ludovica Roofthooft (Belgian subject), aged 19, no profession, born in Herentals (Belgium), living in Rotterdam, "minderjarige" (=under 21) daughter of Petrus Franciscus Roofthooft, occupation "houtkoopersknecht" (some kind of lumberman job) and Anna Elisabeth Maes, no profession, both living in Rotterdam
The mother of the groom and both parents of the bride, present at the wedding, gave their consent to the marriage, While with regard to the father of the bridegroom the intervention of the cantonal judge in the third canton of Rotterdam has taken place. (More drama?!)
There's also a note added later saying the couple divorced.
Daughter Magdalene Ludovica Smit born on 22nd January 1907 in Rotterdam
Son Jan Franciscus Hendrikus Smit born on 18th February 1908 in Rotterdam
Son Victor Petrus Franciscus Smit born on 23rd February 1910 in Rotterdam
Son Jan Franciscus Hendrikus Smith died on 15th May 1910 in Rotterdam aged 2
It seems Hendrikus got remarried in 1929.
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Oh my, that's an interesting family!!
I wonder what the father was in trouble for at the wedding?? Ohhhh, this is brilliant! So much detail!
Thankyou so much for the birth records too.
I have Ludovicas identity card from the 1930s, she lived with Frans and Magdalena until she died.
Ahhh did he remarry? I shall see if I can find it(unless you're free too?)
So many questions haha
X
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Oh my, that's an interesting family!!
I wonder what the father was in trouble for at the wedding?? Ohhhh, this is brilliant! So much detail!
Thankyou so much for the birth records too.
I have Ludovicas identity card from the 1930s, she lived with Frans and Magdalena until she died.
Ahhh did he remarry? I shall see if I can find it(unless you're free too?)
So many questions haha
X
I'll see what I can find out about his 2nd marriage.
Did you want help looking into Ludovica Roofthooft's Flemish ancestors?
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Ye splease if you don't mind? Anything in the Netherlands is easier than the Flemish side 🤣🤣🤣🤣They've been my block for absolutely years!!!! Xx
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Ye splease if you don't mind? Anything in the Netherlands is easier than the Flemish side 🤣🤣🤣🤣They've been my block for absolutely years!!!! Xx
I'll see what I can find and get back to you tonight.
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Wonderful!! Thankyou so much xx
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Hey again
Ive fpund a marriage announcement if you wouldnt mind having a look for me please to translate,its in westerlo,antwerp province,marriage announcements and page 181,carolus roofthooft
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I'll send you a private message.